Did they come knocking or were they invited?
Wasps in talks to takeover Ricoh (34 Viewers)
- Thread starter SimonGilbert
- Start date
Did they come knocking or were they invited?
Think it was Chris West who made a note of a quote from AL.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
The AL said it comes from this note
The person who said it before was Chris West apparently He claimed there had been prejudice against Sisu and that council finance director Chris West later said in a minuted meeting that "hell would freeze over" before the Ricoh was sold to Sisu.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sp...ws/sisu-wins-judicial-review-decision-6354042
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Not for a second but what I can imagine is someone in Wasps PR machine (you know, the one they say doesn't exist) thinking it might not look good if Wasps buy the Ricoh on the cheap, causing CCC and Higgs to lose millions, while the football club is playing in Northampton and there's 10,000 people marching through the street every year protesting the club not playing in its hometown, a CT campaign about the same thing and CCC saying at every available opportunity what a disgrace it is to rip a club from its community.
I can definitely see Wasps saying get them back ASAP, get them in on a short term deal so we aren't committed to anything and don't look like we've stolen their ground. There's no way SISU paid for a pitch at Sixfields and sold cheap season tickets if they thought we were coming back. If it was on the cards we would have been here for the start of the season, everything about it screams rush job.
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I think you're right,Sisu blinked
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
Not sure Godiva...is there a right answer to this?! If they were invited...well that makes me a little angrier!
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
Yes but surely it made sense for CCFC to return if WASPS were to get the Ricoh then the Sixfields distressing tactic had failed and it was pointless continuing to lose millions in Northampton. Quite convinced that SISU knew about WASPS when they agreed to come back
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
You could make the opposite argument. If SISU believed ACL was a company in trouble (and it would now seem they may well have been correct) would it not have been better to stay at Sixfields and wait for Wasps to fail? An argument against Sixfields was that CCC had deep pockets and could prop up ACL for as long as SISU stayed away. Would the same have been true in private ownership?
I think the shareholder agreement between Higgs and CCC stated that none of them could own more than 50%. If that's (roughly) correct, then Higgs would have to match whatever CCC put in.
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
Waiting for WASPS to fail,I hear this too much, I hate WASPS owning "our" ground, I won't go to WASPS games despite many friends going (meet them for a drink after the game) but we can't rely on this especially as early indications are that they are doing OK especially the forecast 30,000 crowd v Leicester. Agree that WASPS PR knew it would be more palatable to have CCFC back before announcing the deal but how often are SISU outmaneuvered in this debacle.
I am afraid I agree with you that Wasps/ACL won't fail anytime soon. If they can secure a good name sponsorship then it's definitely over - the club will never own the Ricoh (or whatever it's name will be).
That leaves two choices - stay as tenant in the faint hope Wasps hedge fund will treat us better than the Ricoh's previous owners, or support the building of a new stadium.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
They came knocking for definite. In fact, with their experiences over the difficulties of acquiring land and planning permission and build costs, they couldn't believe SISU didnt want to buy into it. A purpose built venue, up and running with revenue streams showing a profit (which were far from being maximised) for about 25 million. Straight from the mouth of one of their directors at Old Eds
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
New stadium is a faint hope, SISU won't invest the £40m cost having lost so much already, CCC won't support it as would affect their cosy relationship with WASPS, also a shortage of sites inside the city, stadium outside of Coventry just too risky as may be rejected by a lot of fans on principle as well as just not practical to get to for a lot of fans.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Just wondering about Bees then. They're not in Coventry, are they? I don't think they're called "Coventry" Bees. I still think fans would go if it was a similar distance.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
They might have first been talking to ACL about using the Ricoh for European games. I believe their ground at Wycombe didn't meet the requirements for those. Wouldn't surprise me if that's all they were interested in and then the idea of buying ACL was put to them.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
So for example the other side of the motorway from the Ricoh or Warwick Uni or Ansty Park would all be considerably harder to get to than the Ricoh? Don't buy that for a minute. If people don't go to a new ground, if there ever is one, that won't be the reason. It might be used as an excuse like the old nowhere to park we get now.
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
More feasible locations are Ryton Baginton Exhall or Ansty, Binley Woods / Brandon would never happen. But the problem with the first 4 is although the Ricoh is in the North of the city it is walking distance for a reasonable part of the Cov population, virtually everyone will have to travel by car / public transport to get to Ryton Exhall Baginton or Ansty. If the ground is in Bedworh Warwick or Rugby it will be rejected
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
It's almost like Sisu never attempted to buy half of ACL with a 125 year lease for the same price as Wasps paid for all of it with a 250 year lease isn't it?
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
There's a difference between what SISU were expected to pay for it, and what Wasps got it for.
I suspect if the club had ever been offered the identical terms to what Wasps were that this conversation would not exist.
You're making a very big assumption Ian, as have many commenters on this forum. Have you ever considered that Wasps came into negotiations with ACL and they (Wasps) suggested the 250 year lease? After due consideration, ACL agrees? After all, that's what NEGOTIATIONS are, aren't they............two way dialogue. Now having said that, I don't know what actually happened either.....but I am willing to concede there are two sides to every story and not jump to any conclusions without the facts.
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
SISU wanted the freehold, nut not only the freehold nut unencumbered freehold, I suspect it was so they as owners could sell on the land and buildings. A 250 year lease is as good as owning it but you can't sell it. Why did SISU not suggest this they are surrounded by property consultants. ACL were desperate but the last people they were going to deal with were SISU, it got personal, rightly or wrongly but we're left to pick up the pieces after a hedge fund / public sector / charity squabble.
They don't have a site, they have never shown a business plan, they have done virtually nothing about getting a stadium in 2 years. We have one choice in the short term: eat humple pie and see if we can extend the existing deal with Wasps. In the meantime Otium's core business is providing entertainment through CCFC and they should concentrate on that. The main revenue is generated by selling tickets. We are in a 32000 seater stadium. The target is to get as many paying customers in as possible. Medium to long term a new stadium may be a good idea, but at the moment in League 1, and running on a "Peanuts" budget with a low rent we are better staying put. A couple of relatively successful years with a Promotion or play offs together with the end of the JRs may put SISU in a stronger position, both financially and in popularity. In addition a stadium site or an investor may appear.
H
Huckerby
Guest
cracks me up how the same old people blame the council for all of this.
root cause in this situation was SISU playing dirty. You want to get out of a bad rent deal? You negotiate. You don't stop paying rent and then stay there for a year in an attempt to screw over the owners. Even if you negotiate and they say a big old fuck you, you leave at the end of a season when you're all paid up to date.
you want to buy the stadium? Put in a serious offer instead of fucking around for years on end, taking the club out of the city, going to court and starting JR.
If you were renting a house out to some tenants, and they stopped paying rent and hadn't paid rent for 6 months, would you sell it to them? No? Maybe? What about if they started court proceedings about how you remortgaged the house because you had to because they hadn't paid any rent? Still up for selling it to them? Even though they're refusing to put a serious offer in...you're going to actually go out of your way to TRY and sell it to them right? Are you fuck
What if it wasn't a fucking house but it was a football stadium paid for by tax payers money and your duty was to look after that investment. Not to keep on putting up with some tosspot hedge fund owners who are trying to financially arse fuck you and get your stadium off you on the cheap or for free. It's not even the club, people, for christs sake!! You think it would have been in the clubs name?
Anyone who says they wouldn't have acted in the same way as the council is absolutely fucking deluded.
I would have sold it after 2 months of late rent, fuck um.
root cause in this situation was SISU playing dirty. You want to get out of a bad rent deal? You negotiate. You don't stop paying rent and then stay there for a year in an attempt to screw over the owners. Even if you negotiate and they say a big old fuck you, you leave at the end of a season when you're all paid up to date.
you want to buy the stadium? Put in a serious offer instead of fucking around for years on end, taking the club out of the city, going to court and starting JR.
If you were renting a house out to some tenants, and they stopped paying rent and hadn't paid rent for 6 months, would you sell it to them? No? Maybe? What about if they started court proceedings about how you remortgaged the house because you had to because they hadn't paid any rent? Still up for selling it to them? Even though they're refusing to put a serious offer in...you're going to actually go out of your way to TRY and sell it to them right? Are you fuck
What if it wasn't a fucking house but it was a football stadium paid for by tax payers money and your duty was to look after that investment. Not to keep on putting up with some tosspot hedge fund owners who are trying to financially arse fuck you and get your stadium off you on the cheap or for free. It's not even the club, people, for christs sake!! You think it would have been in the clubs name?
Anyone who says they wouldn't have acted in the same way as the council is absolutely fucking deluded.
I would have sold it after 2 months of late rent, fuck um.
I'm never going to get into a debate on the stadium again because life is far too short so take this as a general comment rather than one on the stadium
There really is very little difference between a 125 year and 250 year lease, anyone that trys to infer a 250 year lease is worth double a 125 year lease is nuts, in fact I'd be very surprised if the difference was anywhere close to 10%.
A house with a 999 year lease has pretty much identical value to one with 150 years.
shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
Who was offered a 125 year lease ?
Hobo
Well-Known Member
From what I have heard after the European games they realised how good the facility was. Then once SISU moved out and things broke down with CCC....Wasps realised there was a vacant stadium which would cost less than a new build.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
But they didn't negotiate the same deal did they? They spent too long playing poker, throwing down read herrings and shifting goal posts.....too many Tuesday meetings that didn't mean a thing come Thursday. There PR campaign excluded the fan base and was too busy declaring they were off to plough their own furrow. Perhaps they should have concentrated on sorting out a deal rather than continually trying to drive down the price.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Wasn't everyone in the world invited when AL went on TV and publicly proclaimed that they would listen to any sensible offer for ACL?
If you want to be angry about something be angry that rather than take up this invite SISU demanded the encumbered free hold and perused the JR instead.
We can all see what a good deal (despite TF proclaiming they wouldn't have done the Wasps deal) Wasps got.
Moff
Well-Known Member
I honestly dont recall her doing that? and I tend to remember when she is in the press spouting her usual crap.
Obviouslly just because I dont recall it doesnt mean it didnt happen, so when was this Tony? as I seriouslly have no recognition of Anns come and get it sale.
Senior Vick from Alicante
Well-Known Member
I cant see the point of this thread any more, where is it all going. The council one would believe have a watertight case for both the original JR and the sale of the Ricoh to Wasps. All this procrastination is not achieving anything or will change the outcome. The owners fucked up and its as simple as that, Sisu could have , should have and would have owned the lot lock stock and barrel if they hadn't been the smarts arses they have proved themselves not to be. We need to look at long term rental and other income streams if we don't the owners, if they build the stadium in the clouds that is, will just saddle the club with an unsustainable debt to pay for it. And what investors by the way would look at a stadium scheme when we only average 8000 paying customers, they have fucked the club and themselves, only when they leave will the Council and other local business's back the club.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
IIRC it was not long after the LR interview with JS and just before AL got on the train to go to SISU towers in London. Which also IIRC TF said AL had changed her mind on the way down because she wouldn't sell the encumbered freehold. Which I don't think was ever an option offered in the first place.
Rusty Trombone
Well-Known Member
“I’ve made it clear and it’s no secret I am prepared to talk to, and do business with, any sensible legitimate business person with any offer to make. Nothing is ruled in and I have never ruled anything out.
“I’ve never said I would favour any organisation and I’ve definitely not said I would disfavour any organisation either.”
December 2013
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-council-leader-says-ricoh-6370106
Rusty Trombone
Well-Known Member
The principle of a 125 year lease was agreed between the Council and SISU as part of the original failed Higgs bid.
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Apparently Wasps,(according to some) paid an extra £1million to extend the lease to 250 years, around 20% of the ACL purchase price.
I'm still wondering when the Charities Commission are going to look into how Higgs managed to lose so much money on their original investement?
Was a scandal before when Sisu didn't offer up to £10million for it.