Wasps Value Ricoh Arena at £48.5 million (8 Viewers)

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Stadium ownership would help, but it's not imperative, it's the balance of generating cash, income and profit that's important. If staying at Ricoh rather than someone gifting us a stadium, then we'd need to buy access to these revenue streams (I'm not suggesting this is as easy as asking and it being granted).

A sensible post. Given that we're now self sufficient profit is indeed the most important thing and clearly this is what is going to determine our playing budget not FFP ect.

If the cost of running our own stadium and maintaining the debt from building our own stadium or indeed buying the Ricoh out ways the cost of renting even with limited revenue streams why do we have to own our own stadium?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Blimey Tony you've just made the same arguement as Tim Fisher! The stadium itself should be able to run at a profit, in fact it should be easier than it is for pretty much every other club due to the extra facilites. So what you're saying seems similar to Fisher, that ACL being loaded with debt is not a viable proposition.

I don't see why every other club in the country can own and run a stadium but it now is being regularly suggested on here that we couldn't.



Careful Tony. That's what I've been asking for and apparently makes me a SISU loving Council hater :D

Here's my issue Dave. If owning your own stadium is the cash cow it's supposed to be why do so many club's keep finding themselves with in so much financial trouble while still not competing in their league?

These football finance experts. Are they forming their opinions on a generalisation or are they actually using case studies of clubs that rent their facilities and clubs that own their facilities? Which club's are they using and how do they compare in terms of established fan base, potential fan base, what facilities the ground has, what revenue streams do they have access to from their rental agreement, how much is their rental agreement, what running cost of the venue do they contribute etc. etc. etc.

There's a lot of variables in this and all we've is generalisation from what you've said.

What I want and I imagine we all do is a true comparison. We need the fully costed business plans for both options to make an informed opinion. We have neither business plans.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Not sure you need to bother Tony. We all know if an "expert" says something we don't agree with, then clearly he knows fook all... :D

I'd like to read the whole article, not a few selected sound bites. No offence meant. One "experts" opinion is never gospel on it's own. If it was SISU wouldn't have won the appeal would they.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
Here's my issue Dave. If owning your own stadium is the cash cow it's supposed to be why do so many club's keep finding themselves with in so much financial trouble while still not competing in their league?

It is undeniably the trend that clubs that don't 'own' (I use that loosely, i.e. 'control fully what happens') their own stadium tend to be the ones that struggle.

Now to a degree there's a little bit of cause and effect - the ground is the obvious cash asset to flog and put off the impending crisis for another day that fans won't get so up in arms about as flogging a star striker, so poorly run clubs tend to sell their grounds off. You can also see with the likes of Portsmouth and Crystal Palace, owners tend to like to transfer the ground as security as it always has a value, and they like to keep *that* against their loans rather than the club.

The evidence is pretty clear that, overall, 'ownership' (scare quotes again) points to a club that has the foundations in place for success (cause and effect again, however).

Now, obviously, a poorly run club can't hope to be in a position to re-buy its ground. However, usually the option is there, and usually local authorities are amenable to such things because they recognise the brand value and brand identity a football club brings to a place, so it's worth encouraging them to be as successful as possible. Plymouth are a fine example of a city where the local authority seem to spend every other year stepping in to support, then letting the ground go back to the club!

The issue *we* had quite frankly, was that the move to the Ricoh suited local politics of regeneration, and this was played on by the majority shareholder at the time to enable a quick bale out. There was an unseemly haste to enable Highfield Road to be built on, so the precautions in place to protect it were got around. We were encouraged to lose our ground and... we encouraged it, whereas once Arena 2000 was no more, this was the effect of a poorly run club (note, not the cause). That does, however, mean it's always one hand tied behind the back to become a well-run club.

Do I think SISU run us well? Obviously not, never have. The problem is, our options to re-buy ourcurrent home are now tied into whether Wasps end up well-run or not. It's n longer just within *our* control, of how *we* perform as a club, but we depend on outside influences.

So that ultimately means that even if we do sort ourselves out, we reach our own glass ceiling that could then require drastic action to resolve (i.e. building a ground elsewhere, and out the city if the council's local plan ends up offering up barriers).

SISU might speak in rhetoric, SISU may not run us well enough to do things, and they might also miss the boat on the emotional element of football that's beyond the cold hard cash. The general logic is worth considering however, away from SISU, because it's the logic clubs from Swindon to Ipswich to Oxford to Plymouth to WImbledon all use. It's not an exclusively SISUesque rhetoric.
 
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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Here's my issue Dave. If owning your own stadium is the cash cow it's supposed to be why do so many club's keep finding themselves with in so much financial trouble while still not competing in their league?

You can still overspend no matter how much you have coming in and clubs continually do. That's a different issue, although also a problem for us if we wish to compete with those teams happy to risk millions.

The only team I can think of in a similar arrangement to us is Stockport and that has seen them go in to freefall and into non league.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
You can still overspend no matter how much you have coming in and clubs continually do. That's a different issue, although also a problem for us if we wish to compete with those teams happy to risk millions.

The only team I can think of in a similar arrangement to us is Stockport and that has seen them go in to freefall and into non league.

Not sure Stockport are in the same arrangement as us. Pretty sure that they have all the income from the site but also have all the running costs. They rent it of the council I believe after the council purchased the ground to save it from redevelopment.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Not sure Stockport are in the same arrangement as us. Pretty sure that they have all the income from the site but also have all the running costs. They rent it of the council I believe after the council purchased the ground to save it from redevelopment.

Stockport rented off Sale, during that period they dropped out of the league. Sale moved to a new ground but retained ownership. I think about 3 years ago they agreed to lease rather than rent to Stockport so they do now have control of the ground.
 

SkyBlueZack

Well-Known Member
We all agree that SISU need to provide a business case. They need to provide a clear direction and how it will be achieved. Personally I'm a massive fan of self sustainability and think it's the only way forward for CCFC and football in general. In my opinion owning the ricoh and all that comes with it is a massive part of it.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
We all agree that SISU need to provide a business case. They need to provide a clear direction and how it will be achieved. Personally I'm a massive fan of self sustainability and think it's the only way forward for CCFC and football in general. In my opinion owning the ricoh and all that comes with it is a massive part of it.

Ownership of the Ricoh is not an option in the near future so we need to tread water and raise our profile with a promotion.
Other options will come our way when we are back on the radar.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Stockport rented off Sale, during that period they dropped out of the league. Sale moved to a new ground but retained ownership. I think about 3 years ago they agreed to lease rather than rent to Stockport so they do now have control of the ground.

The council have bought it and rent it back to the club.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
We all agree that SISU need to provide a business case. They need to provide a clear direction and how it will be achieved. Personally I'm a massive fan of self sustainability and think it's the only way forward for CCFC and football in general. In my opinion owning the ricoh and all that comes with it is a massive part of it.

I totally agree with the first 3 sentences .............. but given what we know how is the ownership of the Ricoh by CCFC (a) possible (b) that likely (c) achievable in a timescale that is realistic for the club. Surely we need, for the benefit of the club, some certainty as to where we are heading much sooner than waiting for a hoped for Wasps failure (I don't really see that happening to be honest but even if it did with all the twists and turns that could happen we are probably looking at not in the next ten years). Can CCFC sit and wait that long for something that may never happen?
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Some detail from the Wasps group accounts 2015 accounts

Group losses in total (including ACL from Oct/Nov 2014) = 6,322,816

"The Group's loss for the year includes the holding company's loss for the year of £6,124,169 (2014 : £4,263,882)."

"If the acquisition of Arena Coventry Limited had been completed on the first day of the financial year, group revenues for the period would have been £26,139,079 and the Group's loss would have been £3,555,160."

Why I highlight this .....

The holding company is the playing side and this contributed most of the loss. It would seem that ACL group lost around £200k between Oct 2014 and June 2015, which included some exceptional items and some hefty professional expenses. Had the full 12 months ACL been included the note in the accounts seems to imply that total losses of the Wasps group would have been down by £2.76m. The logic of that is that ACL is profitable (approx. 2.76m - 200k = 2.5m) and once the exceptional items stop hitting the profit & loss then the profits are greater still. This gives Wasps a financial buffer if maintained and cushions any struggles the Rugby team may have financially. Decreases the risk of failure

On top of that if you read the prospectus the major backers like JLR haven't just committed to shirt sponsorship etc ...... they have committed to 2, 3 even 4 significant events per year further enhancing incomes at ACL. The sponsorships are likely to be greater than previous years, not to mention the need for a new deal in stadium naming rights. Again assuming costs controlled then greater income means less risk of failure

Two choices remain I think
- commit to an arrangement at the Ricoh longer term and accept that not all incomes will be available but costs are kept low (hopefully)
- or build, gain all the incomes but also all the costs 365 day a year and hope income exceeds expenses

rock and a hard place for CCFC isn't it
 
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Nick

Administrator
This is exactly where I'm coming from.
Tread water until we get to the Championship and up our profile.
References here to minimal rent and other incomes, based on Wasps ownership, without having the cost of maintaining a stadium in L1.
Spot on, but people don't see this on here and lambaste anyone who talks about it.

People are saying IF we got promoted it would be different though aren't they about that link? Not if we were in League 1?
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
This is exactly where I'm coming from.
Tread water until we get to the Championship and up our profile.
References here to minimal rent and other incomes, based on Wasps ownership, without having the cost of maintaining a stadium in L1.
Spot on, but people don't see this on here and lambaste anyone who talks about it.

Say we get promoted this season, then what?

You either can't read or are just plain ignorant as most of us have said the current model WORKS in league 1, but not in championship and beyond.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 

Nick

Administrator
Say we get promoted this season, then what?

You either can't read or are just plain ignorant as most of us have said the current model WORKS in league 1, but not in championship and beyond.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)

Exactly, the whole discussion about that link was if we were in the Championship.

As he said, if we get promoted then "Wait and see what happens".
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
If they get promoted this season what changes in terms of the arrangement at the Ricoh? Don't the same terms stay for the next 2.5 years with the option of ACL to terminate it if they see fit at end of this season. WE wont have our own stadium any time in the next 3 years imo.

We get promoted
- get more ticket money
- get more hospitality package money
- the same %age of a larger amount for F&B
- get more TV money
- get more prize money
- better shirt sponsorship and other sponsorship
- the same %age of bigger merchandise sales

but then what? what in the next two and a half years is financially significant enough to sustain the Championship status? What happens to the income levels if we are not competitive in the Championship? What makes us suddenly more attractive to investors if at the end of this season we get promoted as it stands?

- just to be clear the fans deserve team success so I am not wishing against it or refusing it should it happen
 
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chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Ownership of the Ricoh is not an option in the near future so we need to tread water and raise our profile with a promotion.
Other options will come our way when we are back on the radar.

So in this plan we tread water and get promoted (that's not treading water is it?). Then what? If we haven't even considered the options until then we have a long process to go through during which time there's every chance we will get relegated.

Is there any more options than we currently have that are likley to appear? Why not examine all options now and work out what the best way forward is?

The council have bought it and rent it back to the club.

That only happened this summer didn't it when there was concern the ground was going to be sold for redevelopment.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
People are saying IF we got promoted it would be different though aren't they about that link? Not if we were in League 1?

People? You mean person. And he is generalising. Like the rest of us he doesn't know the ownership model of the stadium, the build cost, how that cost is going to be covered, what extra revenue it will be available, what the running cost will be etc. etc.

There is no factual comparison because we have no facts.

We sleep walked as fans into arena 2000 and looked where that got us. Look what partial redevelopment in search of the fabled extra revenue has done for Northampton. There are lessons there to be learned from why are people so keen to ignore them for the opportunity to stick two fingers up to the council, wasps and whoever else's fault it is this week.
 
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italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Say we get promoted this season, then what?

You either can't read or are just plain ignorant as most of us have said the current model WORKS in league 1, but not in championship and beyond.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)

Lets just get back on the radar and see where it takes us.
I understand the finances may be wrong outside L1 but we are looking at the best option for survival at the moment.

Getting into the Championship can't do us any harm and maybe lifting our profile will give us other options.
Working on the destruction of Wasps will achieve nothing except give you guys some satisfaction.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
I totally agree with the first 3 sentences .............. but given what we know how is the ownership of the Ricoh by CCFC (a) possible (b) that likely (c) achievable in a timescale that is realistic for the club. Surely we need, for the benefit of the club, some certainty as to where we are heading much sooner than waiting for a hoped for Wasps failure (I don't really see that happening to be honest but even if it did with all the twists and turns that could happen we are probably looking at not in the next ten years). Can CCFC sit and wait that long for something that may never happen?

I don't think anyone is saying just sit here and hope Wasps fail are they?

More that if staying at the Ricoh is shown to be our best current option then to have any degree of success in the future requires that somewhere down the line we take ownership of the Ricoh from Wasps. The most likley way that will happen is if Wasps fail. Nobody thinks that's happening in the next few months as far as I can tell.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Two choices remain I think
- commit to an arrangement at the Ricoh longer term and accept that not all incomes will be available but costs are kept low (hopefully)
- or build, gain all the incomes but also all the costs 365 day a year and hope income exceeds expenses

rock and a hard place for CCFC isn't it

Rock and a hard place is right.

All anyone is saying really, look at all the opitions and decide the best way forward rather than blindly declaring staying at the Ricoh or a new ground is the way forward.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
So in this plan we tread water and get promoted (that's not treading water is it?). Then what? If we haven't even considered the options until then we have a long process to go through during which time there's every chance we will get relegated.

Is there any more options than we currently have that are likley to appear? Why not examine all options now and work out what the best way forward is?



That only happened this summer didn't it when there was concern the ground was going to be sold for redevelopment.

We have no plan so in its absence we need to just tread water until we get one.
Stay at the Ricoh, get the best deal we can, get promoted if possible and yo yo between the Championship and L1 if necessary until something changes.

In the meantime push Sisu on a new stadium to see if that is a realistic option or just something they talked about to drive the Ricoh price down. It may even be just their pride that's driving them.
 

Nick

Administrator
We have no plan so in its absence we need to just tread water until we get one.
Stay at the Ricoh, get the best deal we can, get promoted if possible and yo yo between the Championship and L1 if necessary until something changes.

In the meantime push Sisu on a new stadium to see if that is a realistic option or just something they talked about to drive the Ricoh price down. It may even be just their pride that's driving them.

You forgot to say raise our profile....

If we get promoted would we want to be a yo yo club?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Lets just get back on the radar and see where it takes us.
I understand the finances may be wrong outside L1 but we are looking at the best option for survival at the moment.

Getting into the Championship can't do us any harm and maybe lifting our profile will give us other options.
Working on the destruction of Wasps will achieve nothing except give you guys some satisfaction.

I'm not so sure about this. If we start going up and down there is a danger that every relegation sees a higher number walk away and every promotion a smaller number returning. How long before our crowds dwindle and with us being so dependent on ticket revenue how long before we're struggling to compete in L1?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
WE wont have our own stadium any time in the next 3 years imo.

I agree but if a new stadium is the best way forward then no matter how long it is going to take, or even if it is judged to be the best way forward but something we can't afford to do now, then at least get the plan in place. Let us know what the best option is and how we are going ot achieve it.

All we're doing with a wait and see attitude is wasting time. Why wait 5 years and then go we need to build a stadium?

Equally if it turns out building a stadium is a useless plan why waste 5 years where it is an option and we deal with Wasps short term. Better to get a long term deal sorted now.

I don't see any advantage in waiting.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
I'm not so sure about this. If we start going up and down there is a danger that every relegation sees a higher number walk away and every promotion a smaller number returning. How long before our crowds dwindle and with us being so dependent on ticket revenue how long before we're struggling to compete in L1?

What actually do you think Sisu should do to move this on ?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is saying just sit here and hope Wasps fail are they?

More that if staying at the Ricoh is shown to be our best current option then to have any degree of success in the future requires that somewhere down the line we take ownership of the Ricoh from Wasps. The most likley way that will happen is if Wasps fail. Nobody thinks that's happening in the next few months as far as I can tell.

There's plenty of people on here who get the hump and accuse you of supporting Wasps if you say it isn't going to happen and we need something longer term than our current arrangement at the Ricoh. Look at the unfounded accusations I've had thrown my way over the weekend.

In the lack of any facts of the alternative we need something like a ten year deal at the Ricoh if only for our own stability. Our stability has SFA with being pro wasps or pro anyone else other than pro CCFC yet it's blasphemy to some idiots on here.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
I agree but if a new stadium is the best way forward then no matter how long it is going to take, or even if it is judged to be the best way forward but something we can't afford to do now, then at least get the plan in place. Let us know what the best option is and how we are going ot achieve it.

All we're doing with a wait and see attitude is wasting time. Why wait 5 years and then go we need to build a stadium?

Equally if it turns out building a stadium is a useless plan why waste 5 years where it is an option and we deal with Wasps short term. Better to get a long term deal sorted now.

I don't see any advantage in waiting.

We are waiting for Sisu on this.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
There's plenty of people on here who get the hump and accuse you of supporting Wasps if you say it isn't going to happen and we need something longer term than our current arrangement at the Ricoh. Look at the unfounded accusations I've had thrown my way over the weekend.

tbh, the weekend has been a tony and Grendel bore-off on this thread.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
I agree but if a new stadium is the best way forward then no matter how long it is going to take, or even if it is judged to be the best way forward but something we can't afford to do now, then at least get the plan in place. Let us know what the best option is and how we are going ot achieve it.

All we're doing with a wait and see attitude is wasting time. Why wait 5 years and then go we need to build a stadium?

Equally if it turns out building a stadium is a useless plan why waste 5 years where it is an option and we deal with Wasps short term. Better to get a long term deal sorted now.

I don't see any advantage in waiting.

one of the most sensible balanced comments on this thread or recently on this forum
 

SkyBlueZack

Well-Known Member
Not sure of the legal implications of the JR but if SISU win could they ask for the bidding process to be re-visited? Whilst they would appreciate the compensation. I would rather the club have an asset. Is compensation going to adequately cover the cost of a new ground? If it was an unfair process, a bit like FIFA and their world cups, could it not be done again? The only other solution is Wasps going bust but not much chance of that anytime soon. Well not with Italia, Tony, Council and the CET all cosied up with them. Amazing what a good bit of PR can do really.
 

Nick

Administrator
There's plenty of people on here who get the hump and accuse you of supporting Wasps if you say it isn't going to happen and we need something longer term than our current arrangement at the Ricoh. Look at the unfounded accusations I've had thrown my way over the weekend.

You mean like the ones about being more bothered about the politics than football?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
What actually do you think Sisu should do to move this on ?

I think SISU should get a bloody move on! Draw up a proper business plan for each option (I guess groundshare at Ricoh, new ground in Cov, new ground just outside Cov). Plans that stand up to scrutiny not figures plucked out of the sky like the 8K who were going to turn up at Sixfields each week.

From there we have a shot at establishing what the best option is in the short medium and long term.

If its stay at the Ricoh then get a long term deal in place. IHMO if we stay at the Ricoh we are limited to how much we can progress and it seems the only way to solve that would be to own the Ricoh. The only way I can see that happening is if Wasps fail and / or move again. To that end I wouldn't be doing anything that gives them income. Might be pissing in the wind but I don't think they should be here and I won't be helping them make it a success.

If its moving to a new stadium we have to work out if it is affordable now or if it is something we know we need to do but have to put on the back burner.

Basically just decide what the best plan is and take us out of constant limbo.
 

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