ACL £1m profit? (23 Viewers)

Grendel · Mar 4, 2013

cloughie said:
And what wonderful favour would I be trying to gain ..............yet more nonfactual rubbish spouted by you

At times you are troll like

Ah OK so perhaps you would like to explain;

- Do we have the worst rental arrangement of any football club in England?
- Are we the only club to be denied revenue streams from its own match day activities
- Are the named sponsors allowed to withdraw if the club leaves the stadium
- What have ACL budgeted as a reduction in sponsorship income if the club leaves

I would like to have the factual answers to these legitimate questions. As a loyal Coventry City supporter I am sure you do to.

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

Grendel said:
Incorrect as usual

You can pick away at the edges, and I am the first to admit my argument is imperfect - but at least I have one. I've laid out a vision for what I'd like to see - I have yet to see a coherent alternative that logically shows CCFC succeeding with SISU at the helm.

Unfortunately, you are developing symptomns of "bunker syndrome" - every criticism is taken personally and as an attempt to undermine, attack and destroy CCFC. You are bit like Bush saying "you're with us or with the terrorists". Real life is not so simple.

sky blue john · Mar 4, 2013

oakey said:
Question for SBTaylor, Grendel et al:
If ACL ended up owning ccfc outright would you switch sides and applaud our new owners and back them to the hilt?

Good question doubt Grendel will answer though !

Mucca Mad Boys · Mar 4, 2013

CJparker said:
Well people have attacked me personally and viciously - not sure who else you are referring to.

As for the rest of your post, it is purely based on a weak assumption of "a reduction was offered, therefore the rent was too high" - ignoring a whole host of facts, known and unknown, especially that all tenants seek to reduce their rent, or whatever level, and the ACL were dependent on CCFC and were being held over a barrel by the threat of CCFC leaving.

Please, take off your Sky Blue loyalty and view it dispassionately. To any independent observer, SISU's behaviour has been nothing short of scandalous. It is genuinely upsetting to me that a few fans, including ones like you who appear to be intelligent, have been duped into giving them strident backing.

I have not been 'duped' by SISU spin doctors, I have said on many occasions, 'both are bad guys here' and I have also acknowledged that SISU haven't gone about this the right way, however, I feel strongly about the rent, I feel it is a rip-off, you feel differently, but that's how I feel. SISU represent CCFC, so I therefore offer instinctive, unconditional support to CCFC's cause, I do believe this fiasco could've been approached better, but I'm also totally convinced that this rent agreement is holding the club back.

There is no 'fact' that states that the rent is fair, nor fair, it isn't something that can be measured by facts, but it can be measured by the landlord lowering the rent, using the popular landlord analogy for a second, a landlord wouldn't lower his rent demands if he thought it was fair would he? As I said, I'd say 'take it or leave it' if I believed it was fair. PWKH has acknowledge somewhere that CCFC has the "right" to renegotiate the rent and to negotiate to purchase a share in ACL, as close a source anyone has to ACL.

As hill83 acknowledged, the only 'hating' towards SISU, or SHITSU to some, has come from our very own, fellow CCFC 'supporters', not any independent, the only people who seem to criticise SISU, bar the fans, in this fiasco OR in general, are the councillors... :thinking about:

torchomatic · Mar 4, 2013

I see you're on a PR campaign to try and distance yourself from your previous comments regarding your curious attitude of wishing your team to go out of business. It's not going to work.

Maybe ACL will let you attend some of their meetings where you can cheer from the sidelines with the others.

CJparker said:
Don't worry, in Grendel land SISU is the only big white horse in town - I can only think that this delusion is what has convinced him that all attempts to dislodge SISU are part of fans' desire to see their club go under - laughable I know, but his posts bear it out.

I wonder what Grendel thinks about the Kennedy assassination. ACL from behind the grassy knoll?

coundonskyblue · Mar 4, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
We sold the right for F+B revenue streams for any event held at the RICOH, including CCFC games, I get that, but I think it is perfectly reasonable and acceptable if that is revised, I'm not saying we should get all of the revenue off concerts, Olympics or Rugby games, but I'm saying we should be entitled to earn our own revenue off events we run, not ACL, CCFC. In the bigger picture, CCFC games F+B revenue streams (probably) don't rival that off concerts and oother big events held in the RICOH. Also, the times have changed, and considering it is the 'poor old charity' and 'poor old council' you think they could lend us a helping hand here. It's 'only' 100-200k isn't it?

Your wording there is exactly how the club should have approached this, instead they did the complete opposite.

Sisu have blamed ACL for an agreement the club willingly signed, at no point have they accepted that the club (through successive owners) have put themselves in this position.

Sisu have played hardball tactics, trying to destroy ACL, then discrediting the entire company. CCFC have no legal right to anything of ACL yet they act as though they have the law on their side.

They change their argument like the wind. Up until 6 months ago only £170k rent was acceptable, then all of a sudden income streams were what they really wanted. They have a proven track record of poor business decision making, and have no credible plan going forwards, yet critise ACL as being poorly run.

If Sisu had acknowledged the club is where it is because of its own decisions, if they hadn't tried to destroy ACL and then critise its business plan, and if they accepted that they have absolutely no legal right to anything at the ground, and , most importantly, if they just come out and said 'Sorry, we have screwed up, we know its not your fault, but please help us ACL', along with a clear business plan of what reduced rent and some income streams would mean for the club, then it would be different.

If they had've approached it in this way then I would probably be supporting them, but unfortunately their pig headed arrogance has got in the way.

SkyBlueSwiss · Mar 4, 2013

Grendel said:
Amazing how many people only post about 1 subject. I assume my friend from Switzerland will soon be logging in.

I remain to get the answer to my questions. One of those of I have even said I will apologise for if the answer is forthcoming.

I am sure most of the ACL sycophants are interested in Lord hawe hawe style communication.

I am not. I have a background in marketing and sponsorship. I firmly believe the club is being exploited and has been for many many years.

Most people on here may be prepared to sleepwalk into oblivion. I won't.

Grendel,
Your friend from Switzerland has indeed logged on, and I would actually hope we could be friends. No matter how far apart we are on the rent and other issues, we are both supporters of CCFC and ultimately we want the best for our club.
As others on here feel, you state things as facts that you cannot posssibly know, you attack instead of discuss rationally when people have an opinion that differes to yours.
I think I understand you somewhat; you are terrified of losing the club, and that is why you react so vehemently to any threat you perccieve that could cause the club damage or to cease its very existence.
Grendel, in the best possible way I want to tell you that there are more important things than football. After well over 50 years as a fan through the best times and the worst times, I would be very unhappy to lose my club. But even liquidation is not the end. The club WILL rise again from the ashes, it WILL battle through non-league to once again enter the leagues and work its way back up the leagues, but this time as a new and clean entity that we can all be proud of.
It is not that I or anyone else necessarily wants to see this happen, but if it must be, then it is not the end.
I just wonder, should that happen, if I will live long enough to see my team back in the premier? Probably not, but as long as we were making steady and honest progress, I would be happy.

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

Grendel said:
Ah OK so perhaps you would like to explain;

- Do we have the worst rental arrangement of any football club in England? - totally ignores council's £30m outlay, which makes current rent justified
- Are we the only club to be denied revenue streams from its own match day activities - we don't own the ground, so why should we get a share
- Are the named sponsors allowed to withdraw if the club leaves the stadium - pass, Ricoh is not our concern
- What have ACL budgeted as a reduction in sponsorship income if the club leaves - according to the re-financing statement, they could survive without CCFC as tenant. This however, does not give them an obligation to let us play at the Ricoh "at cost" - they have a right to make a profit, just as we do

I would like to have the factual answers to these legitimate questions. As a loyal Coventry City supporter I am sure you do to.

Try this...

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

torchomatic said:
I see you're on a PR campaign to try and distance yourself from your previous comments regarding your curious attitude of wishing your team to go out of business. It's not going to work.

Maybe ACL will let you attend some of their meetings where you can cheer from the sidelines with the others.

Well I didn't say that - this is not hte 5th or 6th time I have challenged you to find these alleged comments are re-post them here. Please do so now....we're waiting.

Mucca Mad Boys · Mar 4, 2013

oakey said:
Question for SBTaylor, Grendel et al:
If ACL ended up owning ccfc outright would you switch sides and applaud our new owners and back them to the hilt?

They wouldn't ever own the club so it is a flawed question.

But, I would also be very unhappy if the local authority came to own the club, because they'd be ploughing money into the club on keeping the club, paying greedy players + their agents and transfers fees etc. I'd be disgusted to be frank with you. Especially because there're some deprived areas in the city and the city needs maintenance, schools regenerating etc. I'd be absolutely fuming.

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

SkyBlueSwiss said:
Grendel,
Your friend from Switzerland has indeed logged on, and I would actually hope we could be friends. No matter how far apart we are on the rent and other issues, we are both supporters of CCFC and ultimately we want the best for our club.
As others on here feel, you state things as facts that you cannot posssibly know, you attack instead of discuss rationally when people have an opinion that differes to yours.
I think I understand you somewhat; you are terrified of losing the club, and that is why you react so vehemently to any threat you perccieve that could cause the club damage or to cease its very existence.
Grendel, in the best possible way I want to tell you that there are more important things than football. After well over 50 years as a fan through the best times and the worst times, I would be very unhappy to lose my club. But even liquidation is not the end. The club WILL rise again from the ashes, it WILL battle through non-league to once again enter the leagues and work its way back up the leagues, but this time as a new and clean entity that we can all be proud of.
It is not that I or anyone else necessarily wants to see this happen, but if it must be, then it is not the end.
I just wonder, should that happen, if I will live long enough to see my team back in the premier? Probably not, but as long as we were making steady and honest progress, I would be happy.

Oh no, he isn't agreeing 100% with SISU, yet another fan who wants the club to fold!!!

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
They wouldn't ever own the club so it is a flawed question.

But, I would also be very unhappy if the local authority came to own the club, because they'd be ploughing money into the club on keeping the club, paying greedy players + their agents and transfers fees etc. I'd be disgusted to be frank with you. Especially because there're some deprived areas in the city and the city needs maintenance, schools regenerating etc. I'd be absolutely fuming.

And yet you want the council to give away a big slice of the revenues to a Mayfair hedge fund, for nothing in return....interesting

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 4, 2013

CJparker said:
Well I didn't say that - this is not hte 5th or 6th time I have challenged you to find these alleged comments are re-post them here. Please do so now....we're waiting.

The comments were made months ago CJ and it would take some tedious trawling through the forum history to bring it back up.

torchomatic · Mar 4, 2013

You keep banging on about the council's outlay. What about the Clubs? How much did they put in initially, do you know? Do you care?

CJparker said:
Try this...

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 4, 2013

coundonskyblue said:
Your wording there is exactly how the club should have approached this, instead they did the complete opposite.

Sisu have blamed ACL for an agreement the club willingly signed, at no point have they accepted that the club (through successive owners) have put themselves in this position.

Sisu have played hardball tactics, trying to destroy ACL, then discrediting the entire company. CCFC have no legal right to anything of ACL yet they act as though they have the law on their side.

They change their argument like the wind. Up until 6 months ago only £170k rent was acceptable, then all of a sudden income streams were what they really wanted. They have a proven track record of poor business decision making, and have no credible plan going forwards, yet critise ACL as being poorly run.

If Sisu had acknowledged the club is where it is because of its own decisions, if they hadn't tried to destroy ACL and then critise its business plan, and if they accepted that they have absolutely no legal right to anything at the ground, and , most importantly, if they just come out and said 'Sorry, we have screwed up, we know its not your fault, but please help us ACL', along with a clear business plan of what reduced rent and some income streams would mean for the club, then it would be different.

If they had've approached it in this way then I would probably be supporting them, but unfortunately their pig headed arrogance has got in the way.

Excellent post Coundon.

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The comments were made months ago CJ and it would take some tedious trawling through the forum history to bring it back up.

No BSB I won't have it - I never said that. It's equally tedious to be accused, so go and fucking find it or don't accuse me again

torchomatic · Mar 4, 2013

Yes you did and you know it. I'm glad that BSB saw them too and not just me, Grendel and SBT.

CJparker said:
Well I didn't say that - this is not hte 5th or 6th time I have challenged you to find these alleged comments are re-post them here. Please do so now....we're waiting.

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

torchomatic said:
You keep banging on about the council's outlay. What about the Clubs? How much did they put in initially, do you know? Do you care?

Taking a totally dispassionate view, what the club paid is irrelevant. We had to approach a third party for emergency funding for our own purpose built facility, which required up to £30m in unanticipated funding - that, on its own, gives the council/ACL full right to own the stadium in return.

It suited CCFC well enough at the time, you want to have your cake and eat it!

How are you getting on trying to find non-existent evidence that I want us to go out of business?

oakey · Mar 4, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
They wouldn't ever own the club so it is a flawed question.

But, I would also be very unhappy if the local authority came to own the club, because they'd be ploughing money into the club on keeping the club, paying greedy players + their agents and transfers fees etc. I'd be disgusted to be frank with you. Especially because there're some deprived areas in the city and the city needs maintenance, schools regenerating etc. I'd be absolutely fuming.

Well, as ACL are a company I can think of no legal reason why they would be unable to buy a football club.
The council would not want to buy a football club but they could do what Portsmouth council did and loan an interested party like a supporters group a chunk of money to bid for a club.
Would you be supportive if either, unlikely scenario panned out?

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

torchomatic said:
Yes you did and you know it. I'm glad that BSB saw them too and not just me, Grendel and SBT.

No go on = find it and post it. Not good enough- pathetic. If it was so obvious to the SISU brigade, to should not be hard to find

Grendel · Mar 4, 2013

CJparker said:
Oh I missed that, who went out of business?

Maidstone - no longer in existence

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 4, 2013

CJparker said:
No BSB I won't have it - I never said that. It's equally tedious to be accused, so go and fucking find it or don't accuse me again

I have a thesis to write so can't spend my time looking through page after page of threads to find what I know you wrote-you've already credited SISU with Operation Premiership, could you not have got it wrong here too?

There will be a quote from me to Torch along the lines of 'Surely nobody genuinely wants the club to go under', which, in the same thread, was joined by a quote from you proving me wrong.

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

torchomatic said:
Yes you did and you know it. I'm glad that BSB saw them too and not just me, Grendel and SBT.

Also love how you roll out these vitriolic and fanatic SISU acolytes as "independent" witnesses - you really are fighting a losing battle aren't you?

Please don't mistake my desire for a winding up order against CCFC as "evidence" that I "want to see us go under" - quite the opposite. It is the best way of getting SISU out so we can have a fresh start. For some reason you view that as a doomsday scenario

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I have a thesis to write so can't spend my time looking through page after page of threads to find what I know you wrote-you've already credited SISU with Operation Premiership, could you not have got it wrong here too?

There will be a quote from me to Torch along the lines of 'Surely nobody genuinely wants the club to go under', which, in the same thread, was joined by a quote from you proving me wrong.

Come on BSB, go and find it or shut up. I never said that and will not accept it until you find it. Clearly your thesis isn't keeping you from posting on here. If it's as obvious as you say, it shouldn't take 2 secs. Unless of course it doesn't exist.

CJparker · Mar 4, 2013

Grendel said:
Maidstone - no longer in existence

OK 1 club in 19 years, we really are running a huge risk there aren't we. Do you think before you post or do you just let the hatred flow?

sky blue john · Mar 4, 2013

Grendel said:
Maidstone - no longer in existence

Good comparrison to CCFC just refresh my memory maidstone average gate ?
What was the highest league they played in?
How much rent did they pay ?
What was their average wage bill ?
Any charity counsel involvement and if so how did they perform?

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 4, 2013

CJparker said:
Come on BSB, go and find it or shut up. I never said that and will not accept it until you find it. Clearly your thesis isn't keeping you from posting on here. If it's as obvious as you say, it shouldn't take 2 secs. Unless of course it doesn't exist.

There is a little thing called multi-tasking CJ When I have time and aren't half asleep I will have a good trawl through-I've no reason to be lying, mind.

Mucca Mad Boys · Mar 4, 2013

CJparker said:
And yet you want the council to give away a big slice of the revenues to a Mayfair hedge fund, for nothing in return....interesting

What do the council do to make CCFC games happen? It's CCFC who pay for the match day costs to make the games go ahead (if I'm wrong, anyone correct me, but I'm guessing this is what we pay the 10-oddk in match day costs for?) so we should reap the fruits of our own labour? It's also CCFC fans who raise the money, at CCFC games, we should have 100% of this. Tell why a quango should get this. In fact, I'm not aware of another club who doesn't get 100% revenue streams, it's a makes a difference!

With all due respect, the way you, and others approach this is wrong, when ever we sell a player or spend money to do with the club etc. it 'lines SISU's pockets', well it doesn't, because SISU still keeps the club running and that 100-200k isn't going to put a dent in their investment of around 45m does it? It's just a pathetic snipe at the owners that is factually incorrect. If anything, the owners have massive holes in their pockets since getting involved, not getting them lined! We have to sell assets to keep the club afloat.

CCFC deserve to keep the revenue CCFC fans raise at CCFC-run events, nothing more (concerts and other events) or nothing less (50% 0%). Anyone who has the interests of the club in heart (or brain) would agree with this. No, I'd say the revenue from the Olympics, Coldplay, Springsteen, Florence and the Machine and Muse concerts would be better than 23 CCFC games tbh with you. Also, some have said it's only 100-200k, so why do ACL need it when they are operating 'healthily' (until I know if the 1m profit includes the debt 'owed' I can not accept it is running healthily) and CCFC clearly aren't and considering ACL is 50% owned by a charity and the other 50% by the council...

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 4, 2013

CJparker said:
Also love how you roll out these vitriolic and fanatic SISU acolytes as "independent" witnesses - you really are fighting a losing battle aren't you?

Please don't mistake my desire for a winding up order against CCFC as "evidence" that I "want to see us go under" - quite the opposite. It is the best way of getting SISU out so we can have a fresh start. For some reason you view that as a doomsday scenario

Guess I don't need to go searching for that quote.

There is no rich set of investors waiting to take the club off SISU's hands and indeed only one credible bid has ever been placed during their tenure which was soon seen to lack substantial backing. If SISU leave there will be no knight in shining armour and the club would fold as a result. Some people here say that life will go on and the club would fight its way back up the leagues-true, but it would be highly unlikely for the club to ever get close to regaining its former status (League 2 is the highest any phoenix club has reached).

oakey · Mar 4, 2013

SBTaylor, why do you call ACL a quango? It is not.

hill83 · Mar 4, 2013

"Please don't mistake my desire for glassing that bouncer over there as evidence that I actually want to harm the bouncer. Quite the opposite.
It is the best way of getting that bouncer out of the way so I can have a fresh start and get in this Wetherspoons in the arse end of nowhere."

Grendel · Mar 4, 2013

CJparker said:
Come on BSB, go and find it or shut up. I never said that and will not accept it until you find it. Clearly your thesis isn't keeping you from posting on here. If it's as obvious as you say, it shouldn't take 2 secs. Unless of course it doesn't exist.

I have an extremely good memory. The post after your pronouncement you would rather the club goes bankrupt was a response from Stupot07 who commented "Wow just wow"

There must be a simple word search somehow to find that conversation.

Grendel · Mar 4, 2013

sky blue john said:
Good comparrison to CCFC just refresh my memory maidstone average gate ?
What was the highest league they played in?
How much rent did they pay ?
What was their average wage bill ?
Any charity counsel involvement and if so how did they perform?

Sorry bin boy that wasnt the question. It was no club has gone bust in 20 years -- wrong.

Mucca Mad Boys · Mar 4, 2013

oakey said:
Well, as ACL are a company I can think of no legal reason why they would be unable to buy a football club.
The council would not want to buy a football club but they could do what Portsmouth council did and loan an interested party like a supporters group a chunk of money to bid for a club.
Would you be supportive if either, unlikely scenario panned out?

It wouldn't happen, it would not be allowed to happen by the people of Coventry, I don't want me (future) taxes being wasted on CCFC when there's so much to do with regards to the city. ACL wouldn't exactly want to take over CCFC anyway, so again, it is a flawed question.

Loaning money is different to actually to taking over the club. If the council loaned money to the SBT (trust, not me, another poster nor the forum), I'd lend my support to it BUT I couldn't see it working.

Mucca Mad Boys · Mar 4, 2013

oakey said:
SBTaylor, why do you call ACL a quango? It is not.

Quango - 'a quasi nongovernmental organization; an organization that is financed by the government yet acts independently of the government.'

ACL was just bailed out by the CCC for 14m, and is 50% owned by the CCC.

ACL £1m profit? (23 Viewers)

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