Appeal Dismissed (2 Viewers)

[Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon]

Civil courts can't award fines, that's for criminal courts. They can award damages, but I'm struggling to see on what grounds in this circumstance. Wasps haven't broken any contract with SISU that I know of, and there's no obligation in law for them to deal with SISU for (say) a new rental deal. Even if Wasps were sold the Ricoh undervalue, the remedy was between them and the council.

If in law (rather than morally) via the JRs the Council are found to have done nothing wrong, there's not much chance of damages there either!

If the appeal to the Supreme Court is turned down, I can't see how this isn't the end of the road for the legals. On what grounds could Wasps be brought back into court?

Ah right, didn't know about the fines/damages distinction. From what I understand the difference in other cases has come down to the requirement for 'proof beyond reasonable doubt' in a criminal court vs a lower threshold in a civil court. I agree that it seems unlikely they could win damages if all the judgements have gone against them to date but perhaps that would be their hope?

 

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[duffer]

So if the current litigation is not about damages or fines, it is about grinding the other parties down?

The current litigation is about trying to prove that the Council didn't take a legitimate decision when it sold to Wasps. If upheld in court or on appeal, then I'd guess SISU would seek damages from the Council.

Because Wasps might be impacted by the decision (I think the suggested remedy was obliging them to pay full market value) then they're named as an 'interested party'. Interestingly enough that could be considered to be to the advantage of the Coventry taxpayer, except for the damages that would probably follow.

However unless I'm missing something there are no grounds for SISU to take action directly against Wasps either now or later.

Whether you like it or not SISU are allowed to pursue their case until all legal avenues are exhausted. That's the way the law works. If the case were entirely frivolous or purely vexatious then I don't see how it would have made it so far through the court system.

It's easy to see it as an attempt to grind down the opponents if your perspective is that the Council did nothing wrong. If you consider that there might be a genuine grievance however, then you might think that it's not unreasonable for the injured party to continue to seek redress until the legal route is exhausted. Again, that's the point of the law.

Given the Council's secrecy and contradictory statements around the value of ACL and the subsequent sale to Wasps, I've got no issue with the full details being exposed in court. If at the end of it all SISU lose (as now seems entirely likely) then they'll almost certainly be obliged to pay the winners costs.

 

[duffer]

Ah right, didn't know about the fines/damages distinction. From what I understand the difference in other cases has come down to the requirement for 'proof beyond reasonable doubt' in a criminal court vs a lower threshold in a civil court. I agree that it seems unlikely they could win damages if all the judgements have gone against them to date but perhaps that would be their hope?

Absolutely mate, but what grounds are there for a case? There's no breach of contract between SISU and Wasps and if the JR goes the Council's way then they've been proven to have acted within their powers. The civil court can't re-judge the JR, that's a specific decision that will have already been decided on, so what do SISU sue for?

I'm not pretending to be an expert, but I just can't see what grounds there are for a civil case once the JR is done.

 

[oldskyblue58]

The possibility for legal action, if there is any, is to bring a civil case on the basis that various parties have been deliberately unreasonable (not that they have broken the law) and that has caused damage to the SISU "good name", the investment and the business. It is not a clear cut case of rules were broken. It would tie various parties up in expensive legal costs for some time. Is there a case to be made i have no idea. The aim would be to obtain compensation. Certainly Seppala has always maintained that she and her companies have been mistreated and unfairly dealt with. The burden of proof i believe would be much less

How they square that with the damage their own actions have caused i have no idea

 

[lapsed_skyblue]

The possibility for legal action, if there is any, is to bring a civil case on the basis that various parties have been deliberately unreasonable (not that they have broken the law) and that has caused damage to the SISU "good name", the investment and the business. It is not a clear cut case of rules were broken. It would tie various parties up in expensive legal costs for some time. Is there a case to be made i have no idea. The aim would be to obtain compensation. Certainly Seppala has always maintained that she and her companies have been mistreated and unfairly dealt with. The burden of proof i believe would be much less

How they square that with the damage their own actions have caused i have no idea

If the damages are to cover the damage to SISU's good name i think that i have some loose change to cover that. I could possibly cover any loss to Wasps' name too.

 

[duffer]

The possibility for legal action, if there is any, is to bring a civil case on the basis that various parties have been deliberately unreasonable (not that they have broken the law) and that has caused damage to the SISU "good name", the investment and the business. It is not a clear cut case of rules were broken. It would tie various parties up in expensive legal costs for some time. Is there a case to be made i have no idea. The aim would be to obtain compensation. Certainly Seppala has always maintained that she and her companies have been mistreated and unfairly dealt with. The burden of proof i believe would be much less

How they square that with the damage their own actions have caused i have no idea

Hi OSB, there are only two possible strands to further action then, as I read it.

1) Damage to reputation. This is covered by defamation and I think SISU would have to find some kind of statement made by one of the parties within the last year, that would cause their reputation serious harm (no sniggering now) and have caused serious financial loss. I can't think of anything in recent times that would fall into that...

2) Conspiracy, which could be 'lawful means' conspiracy, which I think means the parties acted in concert, within the law, but with the primary intent of their actions being to injure SISU (rather than to further their own legitimate interests); or 'unlawful means' conspiracy, where the parties in concert acted illegally and injured SISU (regardless of whether that was their primary intention or not).

Of all of those, I think the only one that could have any legs would be 'lawful means' conspiracy, based perhaps on how ACL, CCC and The Higgs Charity have acted. The obvious defence to this though, is that the parties' primary motivation was to protect or further their own interests rather than injure SISU. There might be some mileage in this I suppose, and with Wasps owning ACL I guess they could be drawn into it that way. Pretty thin though - that defence of acting legally and in your own best interests looks like an easy way out to me.

Ah, the things that you need to read up on when you're a Cov fan. I remember when all we had to complain about was the left-back and cold pies.

P.S. I just noticed your avatar. There's definitely something apposite about the CCFC Financial Director appearing underwater.

P.P.S. I don't get the impression that SISU are big on self-reflection, in terms of comparing their actions against others at least.

 

[bradwellskyblues]

...possible something submitted by Coventry City’s lawyer’s at the last minute. We’re likely to have a definite answer on whether this is set to rumble on at some point on Monda
simon gilbert tweet this evening not greatif true

 

[fernandopartridge]

...possible something submitted by Coventry City’s lawyer’s at the last minute. We’re likely to have a definite answer on whether this is set to rumble on at some point on Monda
simon gilbert tweet this evening not greatif true

He's not saying that with any knowledge he's just saying it's possible which it is

 

[cc84cov]

Just curious......but

valuing the ground for who though? The freehold is valued at nil by CCC in the council accounts - has been for years. The lease was valued by KPMG for CCC and then by Strutt & Parker LLP and Gerald Eve LLP for Wasps...... was he from one of those?

Didnt the recent court case confirm CCC adopted correct procedure and were entitled to sell at the value they did? They still own the freehold of course



so Seppala has no real plan and is relying on a large slice of luck in getting to the Championship sometime to be able to sell the club then? Given the additional cost the promotion brings with it that have to be financed and the lack of assets or long term base how does the value of CCFC greatly increase from where it is now? What happens if we dont get promoted? what she has said in the past are values that bear no resemblance to the value of the business in any division has that changed?

I suspect valuing the ground for SISU he said the council pretty much give it away.I didn’t ask who he worked for but il dig a little more next time I see him for sure.He said Fisher was fed up of it all he knows their will be a change somewhere down the line he advised they took on partners backers etc and took a back seat.We then got onto the squad he said Grimmer likes a drink & Jodi Jones don’t want to put a tackle in training lol I would think too from Fisher.Yes he could not be telling me the truth who knows but to have put fisher number in his phone ans miss a call from him shown in red on iPhone and a call back from his phone without me knowing would be genius so for my money I’m happy to say I think it was legit,just thought I would report back on here for you guys.But yes seems Joy thinks we’re gonna get promoted and then sell & Wasps are losing 10m a year and they have till 2021 to pay back bonds etc and they don’t think they can do it maybe opening up a move on the ground for SISU.He thinks if sisu had the ground they would of sold up and been gone long by now.

 

[Nick]

I suspect valuing the ground for SISU he said the council pretty much give it away.I didn’t ask who he worked for but il dig a little more next time I see him for sure.He said Fisher was fed up of it all he knows their will be a change somewhere down the line he advised they took on partners backers etc and took a back seat.We then got onto the squad he said Grimmer likes a drink & Jodi Jones don’t want to put a tackle in training lol I would think too from Fisher.Yes he could not be telling me the truth who knows but to have put fisher number in his phone ans miss a call from him shown in red on iPhone and a call back from his phone without me knowing would be genius so for my money I’m happy to say I think it was legit,just thought I would report back on here for you guys.But yes seems Joy thinks we’re gonna get promoted and then sell & Wasps are losing 10m a year and they have till 2021 to pay back bonds etc and they don’t think they can do it maybe opening up a move on the ground for SISU.He thinks if sisu had the ground they would of sold up and been gone long by now.

You are just saying things everybody knows. It's not really insider info

 

[cc84cov]

You are just saying things everybody knows. It's not really insider info

I haven’t really followed the court case etc so I’m not fully upto date on what people do and don’t need Know I don’t be claim to be an insider lol just reporting back what I heard that’s all nick

 

[Nick]

I haven’t really followed the court case etc so I’m not fully upto date on what people do and don’t need Know I don’t be claim to be an insider lol just reporting back what I heard that’s all nick

Ask him if Julian gray has gone

 

[Magwitch]

If Joy is that desperate for promotion so she can sell she’d better get her purse out!

 

[Nick]

If Joy is that desperate for promotion so she can sell she’d better get her purse out!

For a striker in January?

 

[christonabike]

It’s a no brainer if we are in the mix come January buy an up and coming striker if we can push the boat out a tad we have a great chance of getting promotion which could see Joy open to an offer. Wasps might be in a position to talk to a new owner and if we do not get promotion the striker is an asset and not a shit or bust player that is on big money and past it.
Only a thought.

 

[Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon]

Absolutely mate, but what grounds are there for a case? There's no breach of contract between SISU and Wasps and if the JR goes the Council's way then they've been proven to have acted within their powers. The civil court can't re-judge the JR, that's a specific decision that will have already been decided on, so what do SISU sue for?

I'm not pretending to be an expert, but I just can't see what grounds there are for a civil case once the JR is done.

Given the lack of success via the criminal courts (and also quite a bit of the reasoning given by the judges in those cases, I don't really see hw SISU could reasonably expect success in the civil courts. However, I'm not a lawyer and there could well be other arguments they'd look to pursue.

With any luck we'll get promoted, sold to a more benevolent, deep-pocketed owner and go and bulldoze all those houses on the old HR site. We could then build a nice, shiny sky blue arena....I can but dream!

 

[ceetee]

It’s a no brainer if we are in the mix come January buy an up and coming striker if we can push the boat out a tad we have a great chance of getting promotion which could see Joy open to an offer. Wasps might be in a position to talk to a new owner and if we do not get promotion the striker is an asset and not a shit or bust player that is on big money and past it.
Only a thought.

We bought three up and coming strikers in the last window.
How many more are there?

 

[Nick]

 

[Telfer85]

The most promising news we’ve had for a while. Still cautious, but maybe they can start to work towards securing our immediate and longer term future at the Ricoh.

 

[Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon]

Hopefully this clears the way for an agreement on a short-medium term deal to stay at the Ricoh then. What our longer-term plans could/should be beyond that I really couldn't hazard a guess.

 

[skybluebeduff]

The most promising news we’ve had for a while. Still cautious, but maybe they can start to work towards securing our immediate and longer term future at the Ricoh.

You're asking SISU to care about CCFC, has ten years of shit not made you work that answer out yet?

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Don't leave us hanging...what do tweets 2 and 3 say?!

 

[chiefdave]

Sure SISU will have something up their sleeve. Can’t see them just walking away.

 

[skybluebeduff]

Sure SISU will have something up their sleeve. Can’t see them just walking away.

Publicly announcing they want to sell up is the only right thing for them to do.

 

[King of the Lesbians]

Don't leave us hanging...what do tweets 2 and 3 say?!

 

[Telfer85]

You're asking SISU to care about CCFC, has ten years of shit not made you work that answer out yet?

No I don’t think they care much about the club but they do give a shit about whether they make any money from it. The only way to give them a chance at doing that is by staying at the Ricoh as any other other isn’t viable other than building a new ground which we all know is pie in the sky. So what motive have they got to try and do anything else?

 

[chiefdave]

Publicly announcing they want to sell up is the only right thing for them to do.

SISU and the right thing to do and not compatible.

 

[shmmeee]

Ctrl+fuckoff

I, just like the vast majority were never questioned when I joined as I posted about my team. You bots stick out a mile, your crib sheet on how to defend doesn’t work when we’ve all clocked it. Come up with something new.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Engage with me if you want but PR being used on here is a fact. This makes you look like a crank.

 

[shmmeee]

Engage with me if you want but PR being used on here is a fact. This makes you look like a crank.

OK, just so we are clear.

You seriously believe the council have programmed AI bots that can respond on here with a level of detail ahead of anything the research teams at Baidu or DeepMind could produce?

And me not buying this makes *me* look like a crank?

Or did you mean the word shill? Which is still hilariously paranoid, but at least in the realms of possibility.

 

[Liquid Gold]

OK, just so we are clear.

You seriously believe the council have programmed AI bots that can respond on here with a level of detail ahead of anything the research teams at Baidu or DeepMind could produce?

And me not buying this makes *me* look like a crank?

Or did you mean the word shill? Which is still hilariously paranoid, but at least in the realms of possibility.

No, people working in PR being paid to go on to a forum is different to a programmed bot, come on.

 

[shmmeee]

No, people working in PR being paid to go on to a forum is different to a programmed bot, come on.

Yes. And like every other thing that is different from something, we use a different word.

A “bot” is a computer program. A shill is a paid poster, AKA astroturfer. If that’s what you meant, say so. Because saying bots is ridiculous.

So how much cash do you think they’re spending on astroturfing SBT as a fairly small forum with a hyper-anti-council userbase? To what end?

Do we count Nick and Grendel and the like as Sisu shills because they’ve been given info to post as well?

Just trying to set the boundaries here.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

No, people working in PR being paid to go on to a forum is different to a programmed bot, come on.

Recon there's a few on here.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Yes. And like every other thing that is different from something, we use a different word.

A “bot” is a computer program. A shill is a paid poster, AKA astroturfer. If that’s what you meant, say so. Because saying bots is ridiculous.

So how much cash do you think they’re spending on astroturfing SBT as a fairly small forum with a hyper-anti-council userbase? To what end?

Do we count Nick and Grendel and the like as Sisu shills because they’ve been given info to post as well?

Just trying to set the boundaries here.

Wow, so this is all to do with the term bot instead of shill, great. You knew what I wan on about you've just gone one a pissy about it for no reason. I think anybody that is a city fan isn't a "shill" I think people with masked IPs and dead accounts that pop up are. IS that simple enough for you?

 

[Liquid Gold]

Recon there's a few on here.

They're so obvious, like the one that popped up recently that had been set up in 2012 but not posted until a new development about Wasps had come up and they were desperate to get in there, never on a match thread though. To suggest it's a conspiracy theory is just scraping the barrel.