Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (190 Viewers)

MusicDating · Jan 12, 2021

Nick said:
This lockdown isn't the same as the last one, it's more relaxed.

There are a number of reasons for that. Odd as it sounds, the fear is gone now. For the first lockdown no-one really knew how it spread so people were extra cautious. Now young people think 'it won't kill me'.

Lockdown fatigue is another. Even vulnerable old people are thinking 'this is no life, I'll just carry on as normal'.

Cummings.

And of course the longer this has gone on, more conspiracy theory videos have been watched and previously sensible people turned in 5G/Gates/Lizard believers. etc etc

This is a Sage doc from early on on how the Govt were going to get 'buy in' for the first lockdown. I understand that for a time from March, the Govt spent more on newspaper marketing than an other advertiser, so got massive buy-in from editorials.

And clearly the Govt has ignored the 'clear guidance' advice as time's gone on...

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ce-to-social-distancing-measures-22032020.pdf

tisza · Jan 12, 2021

Ian1779 said:
Chartwells are caterers at our school. Food provided is over priced and god awful quality. Their ideas of a balanced diet is offering 3 choices of carbs at lunch. And it’s been even worse since Cov-ID.
You’d think our school/trust would ditch them, but our founder is also a Tory donor...

Those pictures of the food packages are an absolute disgrace. Common sense says that's not enough to feed a fucking hamster lunch for 10 days let alone a child. And it's not a new issue same thing came up in around April/May.

One of the good things the govt here did was go after any business that was profiteering.

SBT · Jan 12, 2021

robbiekeane said:
boris cycled 7 miles away. Can I cycle 7 miles away? Can I run 7 miles away? do I need to wear a mask on my walk?

Yes, yes, and no (but it’s safer for other people you encounter if you do).

Not sure where the confusion is here. The rules with this lockdown are pretty much exactly the same as the last one, but as others have said, the difference this time is that people aren’t terrified of getting the virus anymore, even if it’s even more dangerous now than it was then.

People go on and on about small inconsistencies (almost always referring to what other people are doing, of course) as if that’s what’s causing the huge surge in cases. What’s the alternative? Martial law?

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 12, 2021

SBT said:
A couple of studies I found interesting:

One BMJ study says the public have generally been pretty observant of lockdown measures, and deserves more credit for it. There’s one key exception though - people not self-isolating when they (or a close contact) test positive. And that’s often because they don’t have enough help to do so.

Pandemic fatigue? How adherence to covid-19 regulations has been misrepresented and why it matters - The BMJ

As England and Scotland start another period of lockdown, we all have to come to terms with following stricter covid-19 restrictions, most likely for a relatively long period of time. [...]More...

blogs.bmj.com

And a recent study from Imperial, which shows the Secondary Attack Rate (i.e the likelihood of someone passing along a COVID infection) in different settings. In a household, it’s 21.1%, and especially bad when the exposure is for several days. By contrast, it’s 5.9% for social gatherings with friends and families, and 1.2% for “casual close contacts” (the example they give here is supermarkets).

COVID-19 spread in different social settings - new Imperial report | Imperial News | Imperial College London

In a global analysis of where SARS-CoV-2 transmission takes place, households show the highest transmission rates.

www.imperial.ac.uk

That’s really useful stuff that

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
France came up earlier, I'd like to see how they measure their compliance as, the people I know with connections there, say that the public flagrantly disregard and ignore the rules anyway, no matter how draconian they are... and that's why they've gone super-authoritarian. Now it could be different in different regions, and could be isolated cases / perception, of course.

When I was last over last summer everyone I saw kept to the rules. If you don't wear a mask you are not allowed into the shops. During their lockdowns only one person was allowed to go shopping in their car unless only one could drive but was unstable on their feet and the other couldn't drive but could walk. Only young children could go with a parent if nobody else could look after them.

When the wife brought the two youngest to see me for Christmas they couldn't believe the difference between France and England. Once their quarantine was over they could go out to eat. They saw people not wearing masks. They saw groups of people together.

Yes they are very militant in France. But they are also very family oriented. Most seem to want to protect the elderly. Even la bise has stopped. It did take a lot for some to remember though.

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

SBT said:
Yes, yes, and no (but it’s safer for other people you encounter if you do).

Not sure where the confusion is here. The rules with this lockdown are pretty much exactly the same as the last one, but as others have said, the difference this time is that people aren’t terrified of getting the virus anymore, even if it’s even more dangerous now than it was then.

People go on and on about small inconsistencies (almost always referring to what other people are doing, of course) as if that’s what’s causing the huge surge in cases. What’s the alternative? Martial law?

Straight forward rules would help. Exercise locally? That's certainly down to interpretation. My wife and kids were not allowed more than 1km away from where they live. They were not allowed out for more than an hour. They had to have their attestation filled out including the time they left the house. No grey areas.

As has been mentioned we are not supposed to go out unless absolutely essential. Yet we can go through a drive through takeaway or get a cup of coffee. Does this make them essential places to go?

Martial law isn't needed. But we need more clear rules. Otherwise many will take advantage and the virus will continue to spread while the majority of us suffer the consequences of sticking to the rules for longer.

Sick Boy · Jan 12, 2021

I’ve just seen that the UK is making people show a negative covid test from Friday, shocked it wasn’t done sooner.

shmmeee · Jan 12, 2021

Ian1779 said:
Chartwells are caterers at our school. Food provided is over priced and god awful quality. Their ideas of a balanced diet is offering 3 choices of carbs at lunch. And it’s been even worse since Cov-ID.
You’d think our school/trust would ditch them, but our founder is also a Tory donor...

That’s funny, when I taught at a school with a Tory donor founder we also switched to overpriced low quality outsourcing. I wonder if it’s the same people.

Something I’ve noticed is that for a certain level of society corruption is just how they do business. It’s all about doing mates favours not finding best value. Fine if you’re a private industry, not so much once you start running public services.

CCFCSteve · Jan 12, 2021

clint van damme said:
Surprise sur fucking prise.
Chairman of company involved is a Tory donor

I’d pull the contract and/or just not pay them. Outrageous!

SBT · Jan 12, 2021

Astute said:
Straight forward rules would help. Exercise locally? That's certainly down to interpretation. My wife and kids were not allowed more than 1km away from where they live. They were not allowed out for more than an hour. They had to have their attestation filled out including the time they left the house. No grey areas.

As has been mentioned we are not supposed to go out unless absolutely essential. Yet we can go through a drive through takeaway or get a cup of coffee. Does this make them essential places to go?

Martial law isn't needed. But we need more clear rules. Otherwise many will take advantage and the virus will continue to spread while the majority of us suffer the consequences of sticking to the rules for longer.

The rules are straightforward enough to me. Keeping takeaway food places open seems like a no-brainer, and that clearly includes coffee places.

All rules are open to interpretation to an extent, and all rules will be bent/broken by some. Sure, that doesn't mean you can't improve them, or clarify them. But it also doesn't mean they're inherently meaningless. Most people are doing a good job of sticking to them.

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

Sick Boy said:
I’ve just seen that the UK is making people show a negative covid test from Friday, shocked it wasn’t done sooner.

It is the same test as we need to get from the UK to an EU country. Taken no more than 72 hours before arrival and a certificate needed.

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 12, 2021

CCFCSteve said:
I’d pull the contract and/or just not pay them. Outrageous!

Some of the replies on social media are equally outrageous. Often a case of defend the indefensible, it seems!

Wyken Sky Blue · Jan 12, 2021

Sick Boy said:
Been a curfew here for a couple of months now.

Where is 'here'? Has it been effective?

Sent from my I3113 using Tapatalk

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

SBT said:
The rules are straightforward enough to me. Keeping takeaway food places open seems like a no-brainer, and that clearly includes coffee places.

All rules are open to interpretation to an extent, and all rules will be bent/broken by some. Sure, that doesn't mean you can't improve them, or clarify them. But it also doesn't mean they're inherently meaningless. Most people are doing a good job of sticking to them.

But isn't it a contradiction to say we can only leave our house for something essential but we can go out and get a takeaway?

Who said the rules are meaningless? The problem isn't the majority who stick to them. It is the minority who look for a way to break them.

CCFCSteve · Jan 12, 2021

robbiekeane said:
But it’s not though mate is it. Why are coffee shops open? Why is McDonald’s open? If you’re only allowed out for exercise why are these things open?

Allowed out for exercise in your local area. What does that mean? Someone said it was your local town but boris cycled 7 miles away. Can I cycle 7 miles away? Can I run 7 miles away? do I need to wear a mask on my walk?

Went for a morning walk on the parade the other day because I need to get out the house at some point to clear my head before I start work. Parade was pretty busy...could probably see 30 people or so. But everyone was following the rule I guess, if they were, like myself, just out for a morning walk.

People see that though and it doesn’t feel like a lockdown.

Hancock and people coming out with “following the rules to the letter isn’t enough, you need to act in the spirit of the lockdown” is fucking bullshit and again is just a way of them leaving a back door open to blame the public in the future if it goes to shit.

Why aren’t there regular police patrols or even fuck it military patrols on the streets? Checking people asking for a reason they are out of the house? That’d send the right message

Agree 100% about the coffee shops, there’s no need (wouldn’t be surprised if these were ordered to shut soon). The walkers/outdoor exercises etc, I’ve said before as long as it’s not in crowded locations I don’t see a problem unless they believe the virus is now far more transmissible in open air (it might be but not heard anyone say that). It’s almost impossible to police unless you stop exercisers altogether, which would be a huge mistake

They need to minimise people mixing indoors so hopefully the stricter measures at supermarkets will help and hopefully employers getting the message that people who can, should be WFH

SBT · Jan 12, 2021

Astute said:
But isn't it a contradiction to say we can only leave our house for something essential but we can go out and get a takeaway?

Who said the rules are meaningless? The problem isn't the majority who stick to them. It is the minority who look for a way to break them.

Food is generally considered essential, yes. If you're arguing these kind of semantics, then clearly you're suggesting the current rules are meaningless. Fair enough, I just disagree with you.

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

skyblue1991 said:
Where is 'here'? Has it been effective?

Sent from my I3113 using Tapatalk

Italy.

They went from being the worst effected to not doing too bad.

My family is under curfew from 8pm to 6am. The worse affected areas are 6pm to 6am. Stops people visiting each other at night. So it will have an effect.

Grendel · Jan 12, 2021

Astute said:
Italy.

They went from being the worst effected to not doing too bad.

My family is under curfew from 8pm to 6am. The worse affected areas are 6pm to 6am. Stops people visiting each other at night. So it will have an effect.

Italy has had a huge second spike and have more deaths per 100,000 than we have.

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

SBT said:
Food is generally considered essential, yes. If you're arguing these kind of semantics, then clearly you're suggesting the current rules are meaningless. Fair enough, I just disagree with you.

Contradictory not meaningless.

Going out to buy it instead of getting it delivered isn't essential.

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

Grendel said:
Italy has had a huge second spike and have more deaths per 100,000 than we have.

Their deaths were well above ours at the start. Their cases have never been anywhere near as bad as ours are now not even during the spike you mentioned. They are much lower now.

Grendel · Jan 12, 2021

Astute said:
Their deaths were well above ours at the start. Their cases have never been anywhere near as bad as ours are now not even during the spike you mentioned. They are much lower now.

Eh? Their highest death rate was in December what are you on about?

SBT · Jan 12, 2021

Astute said:
Contradictory not meaningless.

Going out to buy it instead of getting it delivered isn't essential.

We could happily spend the next hour arguing about whether it's safer, or feasible, or cost-effective for all food to be delivered and all shops to be closed down. But that would only be worthwhile if coffee shops were somehow the biggest driver of Covid spread. They're not - it's just what the resident curtain-twitchers on here see the most often and like to whinge about.

My point all along is that you need clear rules and health guidance on what is really causing this surge. The government hasn't got it right yet, and I don't really expect them to at this point. But while they're screwing it up, we're still stuck arguing endlessly about what time the manager at Aldi is unloading his deliveries, as if it's going to make the slightest fucking bit of difference.

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

SBT said:
We could happily spend the next hour arguing about whether it's safer, or feasible, or cost-effective for all food to be delivered and all shops to be closed down. But that would only be worthwhile if coffee shops were somehow the biggest driver of Covid spread. They're not - it's just what the resident curtain-twitchers on here see the most often and like to whinge about.

My point all along is that you need clear rules and health guidance on what is really causing this surge. The government hasn't got it right yet, and I don't really expect them to at this point. But while they're screwing it up, we're still stuck arguing endlessly about what time the manager at Aldi is unloading his deliveries, as if it's going to make the slightest fucking bit of difference.

So let me get this right.

I state that we need clear rules and need to stick to them. You try to cause an argument with me yet say the same

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

Grendel said:
Eh? Their highest death rate was in December what are you on about?

Are you saying that their infection rate has ever been as high as ours is now?

Ian1779 · Jan 12, 2021

CCFCSteve said:
I’d pull the contract and/or just not pay them. Outrageous!

A lot of these service level agreements never give the individual school the opportunity to pull out. All negotiated at executive level and the money never makes it to the school, as it’s extracted already for ‘core’ services.

It’s fucking disgraceful - and anyone defending what we’ve seen is a c***

robbiekeane · Jan 12, 2021

SBT said:
Yes, yes, and no (but it’s safer for other people you encounter if you do).

Not sure where the confusion is here. The rules with this lockdown are pretty much exactly the same as the last one, but as others have said, the difference this time is that people aren’t terrified of getting the virus anymore, even if it’s even more dangerous now than it was then.

People go on and on about small inconsistencies (almost always referring to what other people are doing, of course) as if that’s what’s causing the huge surge in cases. What’s the alternative? Martial law?

But I saw the government say you had to stay in your town? Boris wasn't in town?

To be fair, it's possible i've misinterpreted what the government are referring to when they keep saying stay at home and they keep saying people are breaking the rules. In my mind i've taken that as referring to all the people out and about on walks, and i've also linked it to some of the reports of people being fined for going for a walk 5 miles away from their house. Then you have boris going on a bike ride 7 miles away from his place. I know that has now been redacted but that kind of inconsistency surely can't help, and you can't say that's a small inconsistency either and the police were clearly confused as to what was okay and what's not.

If the reference to breaking the rules is more about people mixing indoors - then why aren't more people being pulled over? Random checks. Someone mentioned in france they have temporary road blocks at popular city boundaries or whatever. It's not practical to do it for everyone but it would certainly send a message and word gets round. I imagine most people drive to other peoples houses so that would catch and/or deter a lot of those people breaking rules.

Basically, my main gripe is that it's not enough to just go to the BBC saying "people can't just stick to the letter of the law they need to act in the spirit of the lockdown". Actually they can and most people will - either because they are selfish people who don't care (and i would say that's not the case for most), or because they trust the government are telling you what is okay to do explicitly in the rules. It's a cop out because when it goes to shit they can blame the public.

robbiekeane · Jan 12, 2021

Ian1779 said:
A lot of these service level agreements never give the individual school the opportunity to pull out. All negotiated at executive level and the money never makes it to the school, as it’s extracted already for ‘core’ services.

Which is the right way to manage it - but at the higher level they need to go in like a tonne of bricks on it.

SBT · Jan 12, 2021

Astute said:
So let me get this right.

I state that we need clear rules and need to stick to them. You try to cause an argument with me yet say the same

Complaining about why McDonald's drive-thru and Costa are still open isn't helping people be clear about the rules, which most people seem capable of understanding. It's a distraction and you're welcome to it.

tisza · Jan 12, 2021

Astute said:
Italy.

They went from being the worst effected to not doing too bad.

My family is under curfew from 8pm to 6am. The worse affected areas are 6pm to 6am. Stops people visiting each other at night. So it will have an effect.

Curfew here since November certainly brought down new infections. Lifting the restriction for just the one night at Xmas saw an immediate bounce in new infections which has now fallen again with the curfew impacting and kids being off school. But the under 14s have gone back to school this week which could see numbers rise again
Sadly the mortality numbers still high here. UK equivalent of over 800 a day since beginning of November (peaking over 1500) compared to under a 100 at its worst in the first wave.

chiefdave · Jan 12, 2021

jordan210 said:
Is anyone else starting to feel throughly depressed by it all.

You look online and see in Florida packed theme parks. Americans Jetting off all over the Caribbean.

Yet here we are sat in an endless merry go round of lockdowns.

Yep. Its a hard slog now but I guess you just have to try and remember it could be worse.

We seem to continually be playing catch up and we're well past the stage where you can excuse things as 'nobody could have predicted this'. Seems we're never going to learn that acting earlier is the best option.

The vaccination roll out is stressing me as well. This should be a welcome relief but poor communication once again an issue. We've known for months we'll need to vaccinate millions of people yet it all seems to have come as a surprise to the government. There was months of talking about mass vaccination centres, staff were being recruited and then all of a sudden it changed to seven sites nationwide. NHS Birmingham were advertising for staff for that many sites in Birmingham alone before Christmas!

The bookings seem to be a postcode lottery. My Dad is in the top priority group, hasn't heard a thing. An ex work colleague of his is group 4 and has his booked in for next week. Found out some people from my Dads surgery are being sent to Millennium Point which is stressing my Mum out as he has limited mobility so someone will have to take him and there seems to be zero details about disabled access online other than a report on Midlands Today with people complaining about the choice of venue as it has poor accessibility.

To top it off having been instructed not to phone your GP about vaccinations it turns out that people who have been phoning my Dads surgery are being given appointments for a couple of days time.

Hopefully things will become clearly with the vaccination implementation plan and we'll see the numbers going up rapidly, as well as some confirmation that the change in the two dose schedule isn't going to be an issue. I'm hoping that in a few weeks we're well into that and hitting the government's targets, couple that with spring being on the way and the weather improving and people might start to feel a bit better.

Ian1779 · Jan 12, 2021

robbiekeane said:
Which is the right way to manage it - but at the higher level they need to go in like a tonne of bricks on it.

That’s the problem though isn’t it. They haven’t gained these services because they are the best for the kids, it’s because they are the best for lining each other’s pockets, so challenge is about PR image - not about shortchanging hungry families.

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

SBT said:
Complaining about why McDonald's drive-thru and Costa are still open isn't helping people be clear about the rules, which most people seem capable of understanding. It's a distraction and you're welcome to it.

Complaining about it?

Try again. Asking the question on why we are told that we must stay at home unless we have no choice but to go out. But places are open for us to visit where it isn't essential to visit. Travelling to have a McDonald's or KFC isn't essential. It is want not need.

Yet you make out you can't see the contradiction in the rules people take advantage of.

SBT · Jan 12, 2021

robbiekeane said:
But I saw the government say you had to stay in your town? Boris wasn't in town?

To be fair, it's possible i've misinterpreted what the government are referring to when they keep saying stay at home and they keep saying people are breaking the rules. In my mind i've taken that as referring to all the people out and about on walks, and i've also linked it to some of the reports of people being fined for going for a walk 5 miles away from their house. Then you have boris going on a bike ride 7 miles away from his place. I know that has now been redacted but that kind of inconsistency surely can't help, and you can't say that's a small inconsistency either and the police were clearly confused as to what was okay and what's not.

If the reference to breaking the rules is more about people mixing indoors - then why aren't more people being pulled over? Random checks. Someone mentioned in france they have temporary road blocks at popular city boundaries or whatever. It's not practical to do it for everyone but it would certainly send a message and word gets round. I imagine most people drive to other peoples houses so that would catch and/or deter a lot of those people breaking rules.

Basically, my main gripe is that it's not enough to just go to the BBC saying "people can't just stick to the letter of the law they need to act in the spirit of the lockdown". Actually they can and most people will - either because they are selfish people who don't care (and i would say that's not the case for most), or because they trust the government are telling you what is okay to do explicitly in the rules. It's a cop out because when it goes to shit they can blame the public.

The guidance is that you can exercise outdoors in your local area. A 7 mile bike ride seems fair enough to me, not that a 27 mile bike ride would be any more or less dangerous. Boris has had some pretty dire messaging on coronavirus, but this isn't one of them. Given how relatively safe it is to exercise outdoors, the idea that we should be shaming/fining people for it is bad enough. The idea that we're trying to turn two people in the park into a national controversy is even worse. No qualms with the rest of what you said.

Astute · Jan 12, 2021

tisza said:
Curfew here since November certainly brought down new infections. Lifting the restriction for just the one night at Xmas saw an immediate bounce in new infections which has now fallen again with the curfew impacting and kids being off school. But the under 14s have gone back to school this week which could see numbers rise again
Sadly the mortality numbers still high here. UK equivalent of over 800 a day since beginning of November (peaking over 1500) compared to under a 100 at its worst in the first wave.

It seems very hard for people in the UK to imagine what a curfew is like. Many still think it is their right to do what they like as long as they can make out it is within the rules set.

David O'Day · Jan 12, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
But it is restricting where I intended to go for walks!

Anyway, on today's round the housing estate, lots of people coming back after dropping children off at school. I get that a key worker won't necessarily start just after their child goes to school, but... I do know of a couple of people who are not key workers, but their partners are. Given Iknow their work has been highly flexible about the amount of work they do from home, and accepting about childcare taking precedence over work, it seems slightly odd to me that *their* children go in to school, and potentially spread the virus about a bit!

It's not restricting anything you do as guidance is not enforceable. You can travel were every you want at the moment.

Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (190 Viewers)

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