Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (13 Viewers)

Walsgrave · Aug 18, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I was thinking if a student missed out on their place this year many of them might reapply next year and have a gap year. With all the pandemic stuff next year might well be a difficult one to start uni with disrupted classes, accommodation etc.

Plus if the A levels students also suffer in terms of being able to be taught this year but have to sit the exams there may be a drop off in grades next year so this years kids upgraded results makes them more likely to get into a better uni.

Although I expect we're going to have a similar situation next year with kids wanting upgrading to reflect the disruption.

The issue is that handing people the grades they want is a short term solution but it can cause real damage for all parties (including the people they were awarded to) in the long run. I'm sympathetic to the entire cohort of students who were not able to prove themselves in the last set of nationally standardised assessments they will take. It means that next year's cohort, who will have to prove themselves assuming the exams go ahead, are at a disadvantage.

The only way around this mess from a universities and employment point of view is to literally treat them as what they are i.e. teacher assessed grades. And that will create a lot of disparity when comparing across year groups. As a hypothetical admissions officer/employer, I know who I'd rather pick if I was faced with the choice between someone who had taken the exam and someone who was given a predicted grade. The worst thing about it is that it's not the students' faults either - they will happily accept their teacher predicted grade; without perhaps knowing what trouble it might store up in the future.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
Not sure a gap year in a huge recession with no global travel will work out too well TBF.

And yeah something will happen next year, kids have missed a term of prep and that’s going to show.

Not ideal, but if they used the year constructively to do some reading on their chosen subject they could use on the application the long term benefit would be much greater. Most kids that age will either be part time at a supermarket and/or living with parents so economic considerations wouldn't be massive. Especially compared to moving away, needing to pay for the tuition and accommodation which would require a job of some description or parental funding anyway.

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Walsgrave said:
The issue is that handing people the grades they want is a short term solution but it can cause real damage for all parties (including the people they were awarded to) in the long run. I'm sympathetic to the entire cohort of students who were not able to prove themselves in the last set of nationally standardised assessments they will take. It means that next year's cohort, who will have to prove themselves assuming the exams go ahead, are at a disadvantage.

The only way around this mess from a universities and employment point of view is to literally treat them as what they are i.e. teacher assessed grades. And that will create a lot of disparity when comparing across year groups. As a hypothetical admissions officer/employer, I know who I'd rather pick if I was faced with the choice between someone who had taken the exam and someone who was given a predicted grade. The worst thing about it is that it's not the students' faults either - they will happily accept their teacher predicted grade; without perhaps knowing what trouble it might store up in the future.

Frankly the biggest danger to the system is a bunch of “unqualified” people get into courses and don’t immediately crash and burn and we have to look at how poor a judge of ability the whole thing is.

Private schools have been churning out kids with grades they didn’t earn for decades. Doesn’t do them any harm.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
Also a lot of the kids who would of been downgraded unfairly are from poorewr backgrounds so taking a year out whne there are no jobs for them is not really an option

Compared to finding tuition fees and paying for accommodation/food at uni as opposed to living at home? Also some will already have PT jobs at home in supermarkets. Moving away means either getting a transfer or finding a new job in this downturn. I think that'd be harder.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
When you say ranked across the year do you mean like the OfQual algorithm, ie they decided how many of each grade “should” be awarded and then used the ranking to assign grades? Or something else?

I mean in order of test average.

David O'Day · Aug 18, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Compared to finding tuition fees and paying for accommodation/food at uni as opposed to living at home? Also some will already have PT jobs at home in supermarkets. Moving away means either getting a transfer or finding a new job in this downturn. I think that'd be harder.

But lots of those things are going to be taken care of by loans etc which they don't have to worry about.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

Walsgrave said:
The issue is that handing people the grades they want is a short term solution but it can cause real damage for all parties (including the people they were awarded to) in the long run. I'm sympathetic to the entire cohort of students who were not able to prove themselves in the last set of nationally standardised assessments they will take. It means that next year's cohort, who will have to prove themselves assuming the exams go ahead, are at a disadvantage.

The only way around this mess from a universities and employment point of view is to literally treat them as what they are i.e. teacher assessed grades. And that will create a lot of disparity when comparing across year groups. As a hypothetical admissions officer/employer, I know who I'd rather pick if I was faced with the choice between someone who had taken the exam and someone who was given a predicted grade. The worst thing about it is that it's not the students' faults either - they will happily accept their teacher predicted grade; without perhaps knowing what trouble it might store up in the future.

I agree. It may get them into a course or whatever they want now, but if they aren't up to it they will struggle later on and have wasted time getting onto their preferred course when in fact it probably wasn't in their best long term interests to do so.

You can't really say "take the exams later" as the kids have to spend an extra year waiting.

There is no perfect answer but I'd prefer someone given the chance and not be up to it than denied the opportunity when they were.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
But lots of those things are going to be taken care of by loans etc which they don't have to worry about.

If the family are in such dire straits as to not be able to allow their kid a year to get onto the course they feel they deserve and immediately need the kid to get a job to pay for the family home then it's unlikely they'd have the chance to go to uni anyway. Household bills for the parents will mostly be a bit of extra energy and food bills.

If they do have to contribute to the household budget they're probably already doing so via PT work at a supermarket etc, which is a job they already have and although there is a chance they could lose it given the economic situation it's still a better position to be in than looking for a new one in a completely new environment.

Ian1779 · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
When you say ranked across the year do you mean like the OfQual algorithm, ie they decided how many of each grade “should” be awarded and then used the ranking to assign grades? Or something else?

They were ranked within each grade, but schools weren’t told that a certain amount had to be of each grade. The HOD and SLT may then have been adjusted so the final submission was centre assessment not teacher assessment technically.

skybluetony176 · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Ian1779 said:
They were ranked within each grade, but schools weren’t told that a certain amount had to be of each grade. The HOD and SLT may then have been adjusted so the final submission was centre assessment not teacher assessment technically.

Was there no standard method for moderating? I’d assume most HoDs would’ve been looking at FFT and GCSE results and past subject performance, I would have if it were me.

Ian1779 · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
Was there no standard method for moderating? I’d assume most HoDs would’ve been looking at FFT and GCSE results and past subject performance, I would have if it were me.

Yes certainly I did that and I would assume that this happened in most schools. I did some work with our English department as their initial predictions were so out of kilter with their past performance and KS2 prior data that we had to adjust them

The government guidance at the time was non-descript as you’d expect of course.

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Ian1779 said:
Yes certainly I did that and I would assume that this happened in most schools. I did some work with our English department as their initial predictions were so out of kilter with their past performance and KS2 prior data that we had to adjust them

The government guidance at the time was non-descript as you’d expect of course.

This is what bothers me about the whole “predicted grades” label. Normal predicted grades deserve their reputation but it seems it’s more than sticking a finger in the air and there was some thought given to the data.

Seems nuts that in the age of student data coming out of our ears OfQual went with cohort averages with no regard for cohort to cohort variation let alone individual student data.

LastGarrison · Aug 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
most places have been taken already but you know better than the education experts

bye

Search - UCAS

digital.ucas.com

LastGarrison · Aug 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
in fairness the news is full of "too many students, not enough places" so I'll take the words of the many over someone who I can can see wants to prove he is right.

My Cousin works in admissions and they don't have enough space for everyone.

Your cousin works in admissions.

fernandopartridge · Aug 18, 2020

LastGarrison said:
Your cousin works in admissions.

I did try to help DO'D, assume you're still in the same job so therefore have a pretty good handle on this

chiefdave · Aug 18, 2020

LastGarrison said:
Search - UCAS

digital.ucas.com

Am I missing something? I just searched for Computer Science, as that was what I studied, and there are no available places at the top ranked unis.

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

chiefdave said:
Am I missing something? I just searched for Computer Science, as that was what I studied, and there are no available places at the top ranked unis.

Yeah but if you want to take BA Basket Weaving you’re quids in.

hill83 · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
Yeah but if you want to take BA Basket Weaving you’re quids in.

At least you’d have something to put all your eggs in.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2020

Back in the country from Greece. I spent some time filling in the world beating PLF form the government says is mandatory for it not to be needed.

chiefdave · Aug 18, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Back in the country from Greece. I spent some time filling in the world beating PLF form the government says is mandatory for it not to be needed.

Saw reports at the weekend that people who were arriving back in the country and supposed to be quarantining were being told they could go shopping!

David O'Day · Aug 18, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
I did try to help DO'D, assume you're still in the same job so therefore have a pretty good handle on this

Cool i'll take the word of the head of the Russell Group and Universities UK over some bloke online who a few weeks ago was telling us that teh whole of the CV post code was likely to be locked down.

Don't give a fuck what he does he's a man with a record of talking bullshit and is rightly to be scoffed at and frankly ignored.

David O'Day · Aug 18, 2020

chiefdave said:
Am I missing something? I just searched for Computer Science, as that was what I studied, and there are no available places at the top ranked unis.

Popular courses at top unis are very dry on the clearing website

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2020

chiefdave said:
Saw reports at the weekend that people who were arriving back in the country and supposed to be quarantining were being told they could go shopping!

It isn’t enforced anyway. Unlike the jobsworth twat in London who wouldn’t let me on a train an hour before the one it said on my ticket

LastGarrison · Aug 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
Cool i'll take the word of the head of the Russell Group and Universities UK over some bloke online who a few weeks ago was telling us that teh whole of the CV post code was likely to be locked down.

Don't give a fuck what he does he's a man with a record of talking bullshit and is rightly to be scoffed at and frankly ignored.

Says the man who ran off to his mate in the council and then his cousin to try and put his argument across on an an Internet forum.

Did you run off to Mummy to ask her whether I should be scoffed and ignored?

Fact is you know fuck all about it. If you want me to pull your pants down on this I am more than happy to?

LastGarrison · Aug 18, 2020

chiefdave said:
Am I missing something? I just searched for Computer Science, as that was what I studied, and there are no available places at the top ranked unis.

As has been said the top uni’s are going to fill up quicker and for instance the Uni of Birmingham came out of clearing completely at 12pm on Thursday.

In clearing previously it has always been the Uni’s with the lower tariff points who picked up the most students, followed by the middle tariff points unis followed by the high tariff point unis which makes complete sense, however, this year has been a complete change and the higher tariff point Uni’s have picked up the most, followed by the lowest then the middle.

Exeter have recruited 2000 students over their cap so they obviously either knew it was being lifted or were prepared to take on the OFS or their outgoing VC just didn’t care!

Kings usually recruit about 4.5k students a year but this year they are aiming for 6.5k. Like I say the RG unis have cleaned up.

Acceptances were up by roughly 1% prior to clearing which makes sense as uni’s were nervous about COVID so were locking students in but I believe students placed in clearing is something like 10k down year on year.

It has been a clusterfuck from start to finish and unfortunately some students aren’t going to get their place on their first choice courses this year regardless of being able to use their predicted grades due to individual course caps.

Courses like medicine, nursing, physio, Architecture etc. have caps on numbers due to mandatory placements or accreditations so if Uni’s have rejected students based on the algorithm and then filled their places with other students then the original students who have now met the entry requirements based on their predicted grades won’t get in to their preferred courses at their firm choices as their places have gone.

This leaves students having to go through clearing to other unis or defer their places to next year which will then have a knock on effect on the numbers of 2021 A-level students as there will be less places.

Like I say, a mess.

skybluesam66 · Aug 18, 2020

LastGarrison said:
As has been said the top uni’s are going to fill up quicker and for instance the Uni of Birmingham came out of clearing completely at 12pm on Thursday.

In clearing previously it has always been the Uni’s with the lower tariff points who picked up the most students, followed by the middle tariff points unis followed by the high tariff point unis which makes complete sense, however, this year has been a complete change and the higher tariff point Uni’s have picked up the most, followed by the lowest then the middle.

Exeter have recruited 2000 students over their cap so they obviously either knew it was being lifted or were prepared to take on the OFS or their outgoing VC just didn’t care!

Kings usually recruit about 4.5k students a year but this year they are aiming for 6.5k. Like I say the RG unis have cleaned up.

Acceptances were up by roughly 1% prior to clearing which makes sense as uni’s were nervous about COVID so were locking students in but I believe students placed in clearing is something like 10k down year on year.

It has been a clusterfuck from start to finish and unfortunately some students aren’t going to get their place on their first choice courses this year regardless of being able to use their predicted grades due to individual course caps.

Courses like medicine, nursing, physio, Architecture etc. have caps on numbers due to mandatory placements or accreditations so if Uni’s have rejected students based on the algorithm and then filled their places with other students then the original students who have now met the entry requirements based on their predicted grades won’t get in to their preferred courses at their firm choices as their places have gone.

This leaves students having to go through clearing to other unis or defer their places to next year which will then have a knock on effect on the numbers of 2021 A-level students as there will be less places.

Like I say, a mess.

While I am not close enough to it , however judging by the very high pass rates, there will be a lot of students who must have been very fortunate

Ring Of Steel · Aug 19, 2020

LastGarrison said:
As has been said the top uni’s are going to fill up quicker and for instance the Uni of Birmingham came out of clearing completely at 12pm on Thursday.

In clearing previously it has always been the Uni’s with the lower tariff points who picked up the most students, followed by the middle tariff points unis followed by the high tariff point unis which makes complete sense, however, this year has been a complete change and the higher tariff point Uni’s have picked up the most, followed by the lowest then the middle.

Exeter have recruited 2000 students over their cap so they obviously either knew it was being lifted or were prepared to take on the OFS or their outgoing VC just didn’t care!

Kings usually recruit about 4.5k students a year but this year they are aiming for 6.5k. Like I say the RG unis have cleaned up.

Acceptances were up by roughly 1% prior to clearing which makes sense as uni’s were nervous about COVID so were locking students in but I believe students placed in clearing is something like 10k down year on year.

It has been a clusterfuck from start to finish and unfortunately some students aren’t going to get their place on their first choice courses this year regardless of being able to use their predicted grades due to individual course caps.

Courses like medicine, nursing, physio, Architecture etc. have caps on numbers due to mandatory placements or accreditations so if Uni’s have rejected students based on the algorithm and then filled their places with other students then the original students who have now met the entry requirements based on their predicted grades won’t get in to their preferred courses at their firm choices as their places have gone.

This leaves students having to go through clearing to other unis or defer their places to next year which will then have a knock on effect on the numbers of 2021 A-level students as there will be less places.

Like I say, a mess.

So basically are you saying that all the better places at the better universities are full? Aren’t you actually saying the same as DOD?

Walsgrave · Aug 19, 2020

skybluesam66 said:
While I am not close enough to it , however judging by the very high pass rates, there will be a lot of students who must have been very fortunate

At an individual level it is impossible to tell but at an aggregate level grades are inflated by over 40% since they have reverted back from the 40% adjustment. It is worth noting that even in the adjustment there would have been growth in the top grades, so this is mayhem.

I feel sorry for the genuinely capable who will have had their qualifications devalued. I also feel sorry for next year's cohort who are competing against a cohort with artificially inflated grades. No doubt if things return to normality with respect to grade thresholds, there will be legitimate concerns from the 2021 cohort about how unfair it was to be competing against students who have not had to take the exams but have reapplied. In trying to please everybody, I fear that more will be left disappointed. Unless one takes the view that this year's cohort are exceptional.

LastGarrison · Aug 19, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
So basically are you saying that all the better places at the better universities are full? Aren’t you actually saying the same as DOD?

No.

1) He said was said there were no places left at universities. There’s literally 10’s of thousands.

2) Check the clearing link there are still places at some high ranking universities such as Bristol, Birmingham, Leicester, Liverpool etc.

3) With the lifting of the cap universities can now take on more home students and have been very resourceful re COVID by extending teaching hours across the day and weekend, utilising the space usually taken by professional services as teaching space as they continue to work from home etc.

4) Believe it or not, not everyone gets into a top uni so someone who has just been place at Bedfordshire through clearing could if they meet the grades self release and go to say Worcester, someone who was placed at Worcester as their insurance could technically go and look at an Essex or Nottingham Trent and so on.

David O'Day · Aug 19, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
So basically are you saying that all the better places at the better universities are full? Aren’t you actually saying the same as DOD?

pretty much, still he's the "expert"

skybluetony176 · Aug 19, 2020

More jobs for the boys McKinsey banks £560,000 consulting on “vision, purpose and narrative” for new test and trace body
You couldn’t make this shit up. It also means Boris was telling everyone that there would be a world beating track and trace system in place by June when he knew full well there wouldn’t be as the consultation that they were paying for was still on going.

shmmeee · Aug 19, 2020

Interesting read: Long-Haulers Are Redefining COVID-19

fernandopartridge · Aug 19, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
More jobs for the boys McKinsey banks £560,000 consulting on “vision, purpose and narrative” for new test and trace body
You couldn’t make this shit up. It also means Boris was telling everyone that there would be a world beating track and trace system in place by June when he knew full well there wouldn’t be as the consultation that they were paying for was still on going.

The amount of money the McKinseys of this world leach from the public purse beggared belief. I was working on a programme that basically paid £1.3m for a few slide decks.

chiefdave · Aug 19, 2020

Back to the grading fiasco, interesting piece on the BBC site.

A-levels U-turn: Universities facing 'crazy demand' from students

Thousands of students now have the A-level grades to get their first-choice course, but can universities still help them?

www.bbc.co.uk

One line that stood out to me was "the process has been made more difficult because universities themselves have yet to be granted access to upgraded results, so the university has put its admissions process on hold until they receive them".

And another piece from the BBC.

Durham University students offered money to defer after exams U-turn

Durham University says it will struggle to provide sufficient places amid the A-levels grading fiasco.

www.bbc.co.uk

What a mess.

Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (13 Viewers)

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