Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Seen that suggested
Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (173 Viewers)
- Thread starter BackRoomRummermill
- Start date
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Isn’t the issue more that people in certain industries that are still under restrictions won’t be able to find work in another one?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I see this 4 day week been discussed.
I think the basic premise is a load of public sector jobs become 4 days a week, it creates 0.5 million jobs at a cost of 4 to 5 billion per annum.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Misread it. I thought it was a payment to the new employer for making a non furloughed post . Sorry
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Fair points. I guess I don’t really know what the makeup of the furloughed jobs is right now. Seems like there should be a mid point between let em rot and keep paying forever though.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I agree, but we learned from Thatcher what happens when industries are culled and there is no replacement. I don’t know what the answer is.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Especially when you look at studies on the efficacy of government retraining programs (they don’t work).
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I actually find it reassuring - shows standards are being kept
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
What we need is huge state investment in "green jobs" and I don't just mean people building solar cells or wind turbines.....
i'm also talking low-carbon labour.....pretty much any non-profit driven job is green. Caring, teaching, nursing etc.
But these tory cunts (or new new labour for that matter) won't do that.......they're all still sucking from the neoliberal profit driven teat.
i'm also talking low-carbon labour.....pretty much any non-profit driven job is green. Caring, teaching, nursing etc.
But these tory cunts (or new new labour for that matter) won't do that.......they're all still sucking from the neoliberal profit driven teat.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
There are some models in other developed countries which we can be creative with I think
Got to be support for the sectors for which there will be jobs after this all blows over e.g. hospitality, theatres, etc. No point delaying the inevitable for those jobs that will no longer exist afterwards - these are primarily office jobs where, if as it is clear no there is no demand for their services now, then easing of restrictios will do nothing to help because there are already pretty much no restrictions on the way they work.
I find it sad that increasingly the public sector is been plagued by the profit motive - nowadays in schools, hospitals and the like, you have a whole load of intermediaries from the private sector looking to get their share of money that is supposed to aid health care and education. Too many intermediaries getting a piece of the pie for just being there.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Its a double edged sword though isnt it. If you look say at motor manufacturing it has been an easy answer for the wage heavy big businesses to furlough people and eliminate risk - that it turn is starving demand of smaller suppliers and they are going to go down. Removing it certainly for larger businesses forces them back - otherwise the supplier base will be dead by the time they do.
Its actually been too easy to get and too generous and like all other drugs when its turned off whenever it is there is going to be consequences.
Countries that are extending from what I see have never been as generous as the 80% anyway
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
There's 4.3 Million people still on Furlough, where are you going to find 4.3 million jobs for them?
You need to either create a new deal style job creation programme or you extend the furlough scheme until the economy is creating new jobs (not just trying to rebound)
You need to either create a new deal style job creation programme or you extend the furlough scheme until the economy is creating new jobs (not just trying to rebound)
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Yes correct - people will be hanging on on both sides - businesses will not want to pay the amount and employees will happily keep being paid and not look for other jobs in the knowledge a tax free payment of up to £16,000 is around the corner
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I know all the arguments against it and agree with some but can’t help but feel UBI is the answer here. Enable companies to hire and fire and be more nimble without creating mass destitution and sucking all demand out of the economy.
Business needs stability and we are a million miles from that, mostly not of the governments making.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Yep that’s a balanced opinion
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The rate set would be as high or nearly as high after tax as many jobs. If you pay that on top of redundancy people would want out and how would you make them go back? Where has it ever actually worked?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Fair point and you'll know better about the motor industry, probably pretty convenient for them regardless of coronavirus given the early signs of downtown anyway
Thinking about it, I do worry about the potential plight of those in sectors such as manufacturing which are rightly considered very highly skilled; but where the training for such jobs is so specific that people may find it hard to get a job elsewhere. The government has rightly promoted technical and vocational qualifications and made an effort to encourage young people in particular to do these apprenticeships. When something like coronavirus happens though, it inevitably leaves lot of people, through little fault of their own, unable to transfer these skills in a different environment, no matter how well they have been trained in specific areas such as manufacturing. I fear a glut of really disillusioned people who had done really well for themselves pre-pandemic, only to find that their skills are no longer in demand. It highlights the importance of retraining.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
It's being trialled in Finland I think? UBI with a job guarantee is the further development of it.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The one real drawback of the initial scheme as well was the non flexible bit - I think as we had not done it before it was hard to get the system up and running quickly to accommodate that as it is complex. That meant total shutdown. In practical terms though as well people were mortally offended that I know when they were actually selected to work than furloughed and the longer it carries on the longer that malaise will exist
Some fair points Shmmee but our employment laws don’t allow for companies to just hire and fire, well not for longer serving staff (2+ years). The furlough scheme (to be fair one of the better things the government has done) was set up to keep as many people in employment as possible and then ensure firms would be ready to go again once we got through the outbreak. Unfortunately we still haven’t got through it so I think additional support for some sectors is the only real answer (retail, hospitality etc)
Ps some of the comments on here about the latest steps to stem the increases in case numbers is ill informed at best and anti government ranting at worst (driven I guess by the media - which as I’ve said before has been beyond poor during the pandemic). People can draw their own conclusions about what measures the government should take from the data but would I would suggest reading - National COVID-19 surveillance reports
I’ve said before there have been fuck ups (care homes and lack of PPE stock/poor supply planning being the main two), many not exclusive to the UK, however, I’d be surprised if many countries released the amount of information/data that we do on the subject. Unfortunately not much of it is read or interpreted....or to their own detriment, communicated properly by the government.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah I’m doing the classic lefty thing of “all this needs is an entire reorganisation of how we run society”
In my ideal world I’d have UBI and remove most minimum wage and a lot of labour laws. I can see how business needs to be able to move quickly to respond (it’s what it’s there for), and also how when a big shift like this comes along the human cost can be massive.I think if automation does even half of what it’s promising then this will be something we’ll have to deal with a lot in the future.
For now you’re right, specific industries need support. I just hope we end up back to something like normal eventually, because as I say generally we aren’t very good at handing entire industries disappearing overnight.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
That's interesting. It's been the other way for me, as they've seen being furloughed as putting you on the priority list for redundancy.
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
it's deffo part of the solution
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
There's nothing stopping companies making jobs that don't exist redundant other than them not wanting to pay redundancy. Don't know how representative it is but I know at my company there is a lot of staff on furlough yet speaking to the few that are in they are saying its chaos and the workload is immense so are the people on furlough in jobs that no longer exist or are companies using the scheme as a way to save a few quid?
Also nothing to stop you looking for another job while on furlough, that's certainly what I've been doing but its hardly the ideal time to be looking for a new job.
You also have to consider the impact on the economy if you suddenly have an additional 4.3m out of work. Again can't speak for anyone else but I'd be completely screwed. The maximum I'd receive when unemployed would be £410 a month, thats considerably less than my mortgage before I even consider paying anything else.
Personally I'm not confident that our government have a better plan lined up than Germany, Spain, France, Ireland etc all of whom have extended their equivalent schemes.
Also can we get away from this idea that people on furlough are loving it and are basically on a months long holiday. Its incredibly stressful and with a sudden 20% cut in income even if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic and everything was open for business as normal you wouldn't be able to afford to be out and about having fun.
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
Norway Coronavirus set ep in March.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I've never been a fan of UBI but I can see how it could be helpful in this instance.
Trouble is if it were to become standard any similar occurrence in the future wouldn't have the same effect because the market will have realigned itself to take more of the UBI payment, costs will have gone up as a result and the UBI would be insufficient to cover basic expenditure.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
This is an argument I don’t buy. It assumes a total failure of capitalism. Most UBI systems I’ve seen proposed leave most people back where they are rather than adding extra on top. It’s only those with nothing who get more (aside from extra taxes or whatever). I don’t think providing food heating and shelter to people without it will have some massive inflationary effect TBH.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
They were discussing exactly that on Radio 4 recently and they seemed to agree that if it was implemented properly those issues could be avoided. Spoke about things like rent controls which they said would be very easy to implement as every property already has a council tax band which could be used, things like that.
Of course if implemented properly is a big if, recent track record would not leave me confident.
They also discussed the huge number of what they called non-jobs we have. Pointed out that despite millions of people being on furlough and SEISS (around 6.6m when this was on), plus those already made redundant with the exception of the leisure sector pretty much everything you need is still available to you.
Its an ideal time for a rethink but doubt that will happen.
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
The inflationary argument was used against the minimum wage and was bollocks then.