Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (172 Viewers)

shmmeee · Oct 9, 2020

Kieranp96 said:
Looking at the testing figures the UK has tested more than double every other EU country, and compare our testing to the likes of Mexico and South American country's you can see how bad they have it .

Just looked at the data and Denmark’s testing rate is almost double ours for a start. Not clear whether other countries double count tests like we do either.

This suggests we count absolutely everything at the highest level, where a lot of countries count people only or don’t include antibody tests. Covid-19: Is the UK carrying out more tests than anywhere else in Europe?

In short the government have done everything possible to make it as hard to compare us as they can do we don’t really know. Though it would be strange for a country that is genuinely world leading to play such statistical games.

Deleted member 5849 · Oct 9, 2020

Nick said:
So do we just lock everybody away forever?

No. Again,. I've said you do is faster, and react faster, to avoid it being shut down for longer.

We've learned nothing from last time.

You also do it to stop hospitals being overwhelmed, (fp's post above) and to save the wellbeing of people who are being ordered to be placed in situations out of their control.

Nick · Oct 9, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
No. Again,. I've said you do is faster, and react faster, to avoid it being shut down for longer.

We've learned nothing from last time.

You also do it to stop hospitals being overwhelmed, (fp's post above) and to save the wellbeing of people who are being ordered to be placed in situations out of their control.

I genuinely can't see an end to it all

Deleted member 5849 · Oct 9, 2020

Nick said:
I genuinely can't see an end to it all

Funnily enough, that's one thing we can all agree on!

Sorry, misread, I thought you said we all wanted to see an end to it all! We can certainly all agree on that

It *will* end, it'll either fizzle out, or we'll get mitigating drugs. The issue is what we do in the meantime...

wingy · Oct 9, 2020

Kieranp96 said:
Looking at the testing figures the UK has tested more than double every other EU country, and compare our testing to the likes of Mexico and South American country's you can see how bad they have it .

Yes tests but how many people and how rapid is the turnaround.
Then tracing to be effective,then only 20% isolate.
Tougher more Draconian measures will be coming if poeple believe they needn't follow the request.
Not lambasting those who are economically stretched are not satisfactorily supported.

Deleted member 5849 · Oct 9, 2020

wingy said:
Not lambasting those who are economically stretched are not satisfactorily supported.

Indeed. This virus discriminates by class, often.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
The one thing I would say for shutting pubs is that it probably switches something in people’s minds. Lots of “if pubs are open why can’t I do X?” Type questions at the moment.

The student thing is funny. They can’t exactly go back on it now as you’re just getting a bunch of people infected then sending them round the country. They never should’ve opened them in the first place but the landlords wouldn’t have been happy.

The pubs thing also makes people go ‘why am I fine to work in an office for 8 hours but not go to the pub for a few’

shmmeee · Oct 9, 2020

Nick said:
I genuinely can't see an end to it all

We need definite answers on immunity really. Until then we haven’t a clue.

This is why the anti mask types annoy me. Let’s assume it’s here forever and work out how to do stuff sensibly with it around. If we could all do the basics we might be able to do a lot more stuff without lockdown.

clint van damme · Oct 9, 2020

wingy said:
There is a question here, other sources put it lower than 5% .

that's why I put if true at the end of the sentence, there's that much bullshit and misinformation it's hard to get the true picture.

shmmeee · Oct 9, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The pubs thing also makes people go ‘why am I fine to work in an office for 8 hours but not go to the pub for a few’

I can’t help but feel things are being kept open because of lobbying and not economics or medicine. Student flats is the one that gets me. No reason at all to force students back if it wasn’t for the landlords shitting themselves.

Same for making everyone go back to the office. Surely the sensible thing is to do as much as possible remotely and save the in person stuff for what really matters like schooling.

Deleted member 5849 · Oct 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
I can’t help but feel things are being kept open because of lobbying and not economics or medicine. Student flats is the one that gets me. No reason at all to force students back if it wasn’t for the landlords shitting themselves.

Same for making everyone go back to the office. Surely the sensible thing is to do as much as possible remotely and save the in person stuff for what really matters like schooling.

And even with things like schooling, proper investment in seeing what *could* be done remotely would have been helpful. I'm pretty sure *every* class doesn't have to be face-to-face *all* the time.

shmmeee · Oct 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
that's why I put if true at the end of the sentence, there's that much bullshit and misinformation it's hard to get the true picture.

I don’t understand how it’s even possible to tell TBH. I get corona in the office then head to the gym and the pub and give it to a load of people, where did that start? Without testing everyone how do they know who I gave it to? The ex has just been contact traced and is isolating (shame), but she’s not being tested so is that an “outbreak” in a school or what? Are they tracing up the chain as well?

fernandopartridge · Oct 9, 2020

Kieranp96 said:
Looking at the testing figures the UK has tested more than double every other EU country, and compare our testing to the likes of Mexico and South American country's you can see how bad they have it
.

Are the units the same? Remember our tests ≠ people tested. Likewise, the UK is one of the largest countries in Europe with the one of the worst infection rates, it must do more testing.

CCFCSteve · Oct 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
I don’t understand how it’s even possible to tell TBH. I get corona in the office then head to the gym and the pub and give it to a load of people, where did that start? Without testing everyone how do they know who I gave it to? The ex has just been contact traced and is isolating (shame), but she’s not being tested so is that an “outbreak” in a school or what? Are they tracing up the chain as well?

outbreaks (two or more from same location) is probably as good as it gets in terms of accurately(ish) knowing where transmission took place. Hospitality outbreaks were apparently low until recently

shmmeee · Oct 9, 2020

CCFCSteve said:
outbreaks (two or more from same location) is probably as good as it gets in terms of accurately(ish) knowing where transmission took place. Hospitality outbreaks were apparently low until recently

Yeah just reading this 41% of Covid patients under 30 caught it in a pub, bar or restaurant

Seems you’re right. With my data hat on I’ve got to say the evidence base seems very flimsy all round.

CCFCSteve · Oct 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
Yeah just reading this 41% of Covid patients under 30 caught it in a pub, bar or restaurant

Seems you’re right. With my data hat on I’ve got to say the evidence base seems very flimsy all round.

Very ! For the reasons you and others state (most people are likely to have a few interactions over a day or two so who really knows)

Ps wherever you interacted with a student was probably the place though

shmmeee · Oct 9, 2020

In other news. Had a chuckle at this: Coronvirus: 'Dr Johnny Bananas' and 'Dr Person Fakename' among medical signatories on herd immunity open letter

wingy · Oct 9, 2020

Nick said:
Yet the kids are going to school every day still and then actually going home to families etc...

Well it's a dichotomy ,you could have had a managed programme of infection among schoolchildren and Students or you could let it develop more generally .
But according to the PM the British poeple are the freest and can't be asked.

That may be a stretch to far for parents even with strict vetting of those at risk due to conditions . Understandable as there still would be a minimal risk to some

Then it's not just mortality,there is evidence emerging of long Covid among some younger people.

It's quite a question .
Who would risk 5 or 50 children to 100k-250k old folk.
It would represent being about one third of total if herd immunity requires 80% infection.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 9, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
And even with things like schooling, proper investment in seeing what *could* be done remotely would have been helpful. I'm pretty sure *every* class doesn't have to be face-to-face *all* the time.

Practical subjects need it most of the time, theoretical ones could be done remotely all the time

chiefdave · Oct 9, 2020

Nick said:
I genuinely can't see an end to it all

Seen a few epidemiologist all saying the same thing. To start to get back to anything even vaguely approaching normality we need everyone to wear mask, strict enforcement of social distancing and no let up on the hand washing & cleanliness. Given that half the country seems to refuse to wear masks and the government are happy to cram people into schools, unis, offices and pubs thats not happening anytime soon.

So that leaves us putting everything on a vaccine being developed, which the most optimistic seem to think will be spring at the earliest, and then having the logistics up to scratch to manufacture it and roll it out, both of which have already been questioned.

chiefdave · Oct 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
Yeah just reading this 41% of Covid patients under 30 caught it in a pub, bar or restaurant

Seems you’re right. With my data hat on I’ve got to say the evidence base seems very flimsy all round.

Wonder how much we spent on the research to come up with this stunning insight.

Separate PHE data released last night showed infected people most often come into contact with family they live with

Kieranp96 · Oct 9, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
Are the units the same? Remember our tests ≠ people tested. Likewise, the UK is one of the largest countries in Europe with the one of the worst infection rates, it must do more testing.

Not really sure 25

fernandopartridge said:
Are the units the same? Remember our tests ≠ people tested. Likewise, the UK is one of the largest countries in Europe with the one of the worst infection rates, it must do more testing.

Coronavirus Update (Live): 114,041,686 Cases and 2,530,580 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

Scroll down you can see cases, test recovered deaths ect ect.

David O'Day · Oct 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
the government are saying 30% of cases are down to pubs and restaurants, hardly scapegoating if true.

That's contacts and pubs are higher as they actually track and trace and take details

Philosoraptor · Oct 9, 2020

I think we are a few weeks from total lockdown.

There's a lot of lip service about keeping the economy running vs people dying.

They will keep things working for as long as possible until they see the NHS cant take more admissions rather then the amount of people dying.

I have always liked to put the amount of people dying into imaginary plane crashes instead.

I am sure if a couple of a jumbo jets started to fall out of the sky over the UK each week in line with how many covid deaths there's been they would of brought the aviation industry to a stand still, instead of working out how many plane crashes the UK could take before the NHS coudn't cope.

Jamesimus · Oct 9, 2020

David O'Day said:
That's contacts and pubs are higher as they actually track and trace and take details

This. I'm a subcontractor in an unnamed hospital (not in Coventry). The only places I've had my details taken for track and trace so far have been pubs!

Deleted member 5849 · Oct 9, 2020

Jamesimus said:
I'm a subcontractor in an unnamed hospital (not in Coventry).

How does anybody ever find it?

chiefdave · Oct 9, 2020

Philosorapter said:
There's a lot of lip service about keeping the economy running vs people dying.

They will keep things working for as long as possible until they see the NHS cant take more admissions rather then the amount of people dying.

This has always been their thinking as far as I can tell. They don't seem to have at any point considered the so called 'zero-covid' approach.

Its always been a case of what they can get away with without overwhelming the NHS as they know at that point deaths would go through the roof. To be honest don't think even that concerns them, its more the risk of the pubic turning on them.

Lets face it first time round most of the restrictions came in when the public and organisations like the Premier League put their own restrictions in place, it certainly wasn't government led.

Philosorapter said:
I have always liked to put the amount of people dying into imaginary plane crashes instead.

I am sure if a couple of a jumbo jets started to fall out of the sky over the UK each week in line with how many covid deaths there's been they would of brought the aviation industry to a stand still, instead of working out how many plane crashes the UK could take before the NHS coudn't cope.

Never thought of this and its a great way of looking at it. If planes were falling out of the sky like that would people be marching in the street demanding to be let on a plane?

David O'Day · Oct 9, 2020

Jamesimus said:
This. I'm a subcontractor in an unnamed hospital (not in Coventry). The only places I've had my details taken for track and trace so far have been pubs!

exactly for example you would only have know contacts in supermarkets and shops if both people have the app

Philosoraptor · Oct 9, 2020

chiefdave said:
Never thought of this and its a great way of looking at it. If planes were falling out of the sky like that would people be marching in the street demanding to be let on a plane?

It does make you wonder though about the civil liberties we are losing or going to lose to keep commercial interests ticking along.

Philosoraptor · Oct 9, 2020

Trump to have a medical live on Fox News.

Just when you thought the world couldn't get any more surreal...

wingy · Oct 9, 2020

Philosorapter said:
It does make you wonder though about the civil liberties we are losing or going to lose to keep commercial interests ticking along.

Do you have to maintain a certain level of restriction to maintain essential /key workers Safe.
Is this considered when let rip is suggested.
What percentage hit to that essential sector would represent a bigger health crisis to all than the infection itself?

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 9, 2020

wingy said:
Do you have to maintain a certain level of restriction to maintain essential /key workers Safe.
Is this considered when let rip is suggested.
What percentage hit to that essential sector would represent a bigger health crisis to all than the infection itself?

I already have colleagues going off work or leaving their jobs because of stress not even a half term in. The kids are allowed to have infinite mixing within their year groups, that is what’s driving up the numbers. Similarly in universities. But they seem intent on closing everything else to work backwards from the conclusion that schools and unis are non negotiable

Ian1779 · Oct 9, 2020

Philosorapter said:
Trump to have a medical live on Fox News.

Just when you thought the world couldn't get any more surreal...

Is it this guy doing it?

fernandopartridge · Oct 9, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I already have colleagues going off work or leaving their jobs because of stress not even a half term in. The kids are allowed to have infinite mixing within their year groups, that is what’s driving up the numbers. Similarly in universities. But they seem intent on closing everything else to work backwards from the conclusion that schools and unis are non negotiable

I feel very sorry for you, the national babysitters is all schools are. If it was about education then it'd be all done remotely aside from practical lessons.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 9, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
I feel very sorry for you, the national babysitters is all schools are. If it was about education then it'd be all done remotely aside from practical lessons.

I've never seen my missus so worked up about the job, we're both forgetting all kinds of things, getting snappy with classes and colleagues and so on. Other colleagues who are normally level headed or well meaning have also turned along those lines. Those who were already precarious or not so great are going off sick and a few have handed in their notices. Barely 6 weeks in to the new term and this is a profession that already has big problems holding on to staff.

But you're right, it's about being viewed as babysitters first and educators second. Half term coming up and it very much looks like they'll have removed the ability to do anything to unwind or release some of the tension/pressure

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