Council admits Ricoh Arena was not sustainable without CCFC (1 Viewer)

[Moff]

In fairness that's a question of morality - which previously I've told you I agree with you on.

However, in discussing profitability, that's another issue; and not what this thread is about

Fair enough!

 

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[Nick]

Okay - answer the point I asked above. When Grendel said there would be no other sporting club who would take the Arena and that SISU were the only 'show in town' - was that a lie? His was a projection that's turned out wrong. CCC took a view that didn't turn out accurate in that given year. Why is one judgement a lie, and the other not?

Surely when grendel said that he had no way to see into the future, where as ccc could easily see how their busiNess was gOing money on month. Do businesses really only check the money situation once a year?

I ran a small business, I could quite easily tell you how much it would damage if I lost a certain client. Surely a big company with proper accountants and actual business people could see that?

Its the same as sisu would have known in the first month at sixfields how much damage it was doing.

 

[Neutral Fan]

Many people such as myself, who as you know is Saints fan, rubbished the idea of a local Rugby club such as the Tigers or Saints moving to the Ricoh, as they have healthy local fan bases so why leave them, and both have excellent homes, of which the Saints are planning to develope theirs.

You might not be aware but Winkie courted Northampton Saints very hard, trying to franchise them to his stadium in Milton Keynes. Only last minute planning permission from the Council to develop Franklin's Gardens put pay to that.

Winkie started ''sports franchises'' in this country and the fallout continues. That's why I was so amazed 7,000 Cov fans were so blind as to visit his franchise Stadium.

 

[Ian1779]

I'm sure that CCC and that hag Lucas know full well that CCFC would have snapped their hands off for the chance to purchase it for £5.54M.

This is exactly the point. Had SISU been given the same offer as Wasps they'd have ripped their hands off.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Rubbish. Like the reduced rent offer when Fisher was after an 'Average League One rent'; only to find our they wanted unfettered freehold access? Or in negotiations with Higgs when SISU were judged in the High Court to have 'no appetite' for a deal.

They wanted to distress ACL into the ground - as found by successive judges. Don't even try and pretend anything other than that was the case. And in so doing, they miscalculated the situation and ruined our football club in so doing. All events thereafter start when they began the rent-strike, and successive reactions when they didn't know when to stop turning the screw

Cllr Lucas claimed that ACL was doing just fine without the football club when in actuality it was making a loss. It was dishonest, what more is there to say? Not a projection, but a false claim about the state of affairs at that time.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Okay - answer the point I asked above. When Grendel said there would be no other sporting club who would take the Arena and that SISU were the only 'show in town' - was that a lie? His was a projection that's turned out wrong. CCC took a view that didn't turn out accurate in that given year. Why is one judgement a lie, and the other not?

Grendel is a poster on a football forum, making a prediction based on limited knowledge of what is made public knowledge as well as his own assumptions and opinions. It's no surprise he got it wrong

CCC were 50% stakeholders in ACL and would have fully known the consequences of the absence of the football club on ACL.

A lie is a lie, desperate to claim otherwise.

 

[Covstu]

Okay - answer the point I asked above. When Grendel said there would be no other sporting club who would take the Arena and that SISU were the only 'show in town' - was that a lie? His was a projection that's turned out wrong. CCC took a view that didn't turn out accurate in that given year. Why is one judgement a lie, and the other not?

so your comparing:
1) predicting that a London based Rugby club moving from Wycombe to Coventry and setting up home to
2) ACL making a loss when you have access to intimate knowledge on that business and stating they dont need the football club to be profitable...

Really????

 

[Sick Boy]

This is exactly the point. Had SISU been given the same offer as Wasps they'd have ripped their hands off.

Yet there are certain posters on here who would have been outraged if that had happened. For some reason this outrage was absent when Wasps bought the stadium.

 

[Moff]

Devil's advocate -

Was £5.54million for a company which had just lost £400k "on the cheap"? Also worth noting, the council still retains the freehold.

I'm not saying it was right or wrong to sell to Wasps by the way. There are clearly many arguments for and against.

As you like playing Devils Advocate Simon here's one to ponder,

If you saw Ann Lucas and Tim Fisher fall down an abandoned mine shaft, and you were their only chance of raising the alarm for rescue or they would be stuck down there for a considerable time, would you either go for a meal to celebrate? or a drink?

** I am not advocating injury just a period of time without their utter bullsh*t

 

[skybluebeduff]

You might not be aware but Winkie courted Northampton Saints very hard, trying to franchise them to his stadium in Milton Keynes. Only last minute planning permission from the Council to develop Franklin's Gardens put pay to that.

Winkie started ''sports franchises'' in this country and the fallout continues. That's why I was so amazed 7,000 Cov fans were so blind as to visit his franchise Stadium.

It was the only chance that season for fans to get together again in numbers, because we (most of us) were certainly not stepping foot in Sixfields.

 

[chiefdave]

i agree. It looks like the council have played a blinder, stuffing up two hedge funds at the same time.

Let's all rejoyce at how they council have played a blinder and most likely caused long term damage to CCFC and CRFC.

Okay - answer the point I asked above. When Grendel said there would be no other sporting club who would take the Arena and that SISU were the only 'show in town' - was that a lie? His was a projection that's turned out wrong. CCC took a view that didn't turn out accurate in that given year. Why is one judgement a lie, and the other not?

Grendel's post was opinion, he was not directly involved and had no inside knowledge. CCC were part owners of ACL had full access to the accounts and should have clearly been able to tell if losing CCFC's £1.2m rent was going to cause problems or not. Not to mention they kept stating this same projection as fact long after it had stopped being a projection and was something that had actually taken place.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yet there are certain posters on here who would have been outraged if that had happened. For some reason this outrage was absent when Wasps bought the stadium.

Far from outrage at least one had 'hairs stand up on the back of his neck' at the Wasps curtain raiser.

 

[chiefdave]

Rubbish. Like the reduced rent offer when Fisher was after an 'Average League One rent'; only to find our they wanted unfettered freehold access? Or in negotiations with Higgs when SISU were judged in the High Court to have 'no appetite' for a deal.

Its absolutely impossible for you to assert as fact that had the council been truthful the outcome would have been the same.

The council have been found out and for some reason there are a handful of people who point blank refuse to see any wrong in what they have done and seek to place all the blame with SISU.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Surely when grendel said that he had no way to see into the future, where as ccc could easily see how their busiNess was gOing money on month. Do businesses really only check the money situation once a year?

I ran a small business, I could quite easily tell you how much it would damage if I lost a certain client. Surely a big company with proper accountants and actual business people could see that?

Its the same as sisu would have known in the first month at sixfields how much damage it was doing.

I agree with you, almost wholly. I run a business, and it's forecasting year-on-year is accurate to within 5%. It has to be.

But this is different business model with large tranches of income arriving from limited events/clients. Anchor tenant lost, business restructuring itself. Looking for other revenues - like concerts for example.

ACL may have had irons in the fire, and negotiations in place to attract a number of acts which didn't materialise. One big concert would turn that £400K into a break-even. It's quite easy to see how, looking at projections, you would state that things looked okay, only to latterly then be proven wrong by events

 

[singers_pore]

Does that mean sisu lying about a new stadium as part of negotiations and playing the poker game is ok?

By definition a lie involves deception if it is to have any meaning or effect. I have seen only one person who appears to be deceived, and that's RFC. So frankly I think Fisher's comments about a new stadium are completely inconsequential. Everyone with half a brain knows it ain't gonna happen.

If you think that Fisher is playing poker then he is the worst bluffer on earth. A bluff has to have some semblance of credibility otherwise it's meaningless.

 

[Captain Dart]

Surprise surprise.

Even now there are those on here still defending the council despite admitting that they lied. Why do these people have such affinity to a council?

Just like the Thorn debacle, the minority have once again been proven to be correct.

Hasn't everybody lied?

 

[Nick]

I agree with you, almost wholly. I run a business, and it's forecasting year-on-year is accurate to within 5%. It has to be.

But this is different business model with large tranches of income arriving from limited events/clients. Anchor tenant lost, business restructuring itself. Looking for other revenues - like concerts for example.

ACL may have had irons in the fire, and negotiations in place to attract a number of acts which didn't materialise. One big concert would turn that £400K into a break-even. It's quite easy to see how, looking at projections, you would state that things looked okay, only to latterly then be proven wrong by events

But surely after CCFC had actually gone they could see that they were in the shite, but still came out saying otherwise?

 

[singers_pore]

Let's all rejoyce at how they council have played a blinder and most likely caused long term damage to CCFC and CRFC.



Grendel's post was opinion, he was not directly involved and had no inside knowledge. CCC were part owners of ACL had full access to the accounts and should have clearly been able to tell if losing CCFC's £1.2m rent was going to cause problems or not. Not to mention they kept stating this same projection as fact long after it had stopped being a projection and was something that had actually taken place.

No rejoicing from me, mate. I'm just stating the facts. I would love the club to own the Ricoh but that was never going to happen under any scenario because SISU wouldn't have allowed it. When asked about this very issue Fisher always denied that the stadium would be owned by the club and refused to say who the owners would be if it were sold to SISU investors.

 

[Ian1779]

You might not be aware but Winkie courted Northampton Saints very hard, trying to franchise them to his stadium in Milton Keynes. Only last minute planning permission from the Council to develop Franklin's Gardens put pay to that.

Winkie started ''sports franchises'' in this country and the fallout continues. That's why I was so amazed 7,000 Cov fans were so blind as to visit his franchise Stadium.

That's not strictly true though is it.... Saints had to provide a stadium with a minimum capacity to meet the Heineken Cup criteria. At no point was their ever serious dialogue about moving to MK

 

[skybluetony176]

fuck me, if Joy come out with a statement like this we would be on page 12 of abuse by now, not 'lets move on'.

And so there should be. This is a CCFC forum (not that you'd notice these days) and she is the custodian of CCFC. Is she not?

 

[Nick]

And so there should be. This is a CCFC forum (not that you'd notice these days) and she is the custodian of CCFC. Is she not?

Is Lucas not the custodian (at the minute, being the leader and of the freehold) of the football ground our club plays in? Also quite an important figure if it comes to our club building a new stadium within the city?

 

[lordsummerisle]

Fucking hell, did you do their projections?

No wonder they were apparently miles out.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yet it's ok for a London rugby club to get a public asset on the cheap?

If it's loosing money how did they get it on the cheap?

 

[singers_pore]

Is Lucas not the custodian (at the minute, being the leader and of the freehold) of the football ground our club plays in? Also quite an important figure if it comes to our club building a new stadium within the city?

Are you schizophrenic? Just two minutes ago you said Fisher was bluffing about the new stadium. Now you're saying it might happen after all. For the avoidance of any doubt please state whether or not you think the stadium has ANY chance of being built under SISU.

 

[Sick Boy]

Hasn't everybody lied?

Indeed they have. Yet some seem to offer blind support to one of these organisations.

 

[torchomatic]

Must...defend...council...must...defend...council...

Rubbish. Like the reduced rent offer when Fisher was after an 'Average League One rent'; only to find our they wanted unfettered freehold access? Or in negotiations with Higgs when SISU were judged in the High Court to have 'no appetite' for a deal.

They wanted to distress ACL into the ground - as found by successive judges. Don't even try and pretend anything other than that was the case. And in so doing, they miscalculated the situation and ruined our football club in so doing. All events thereafter start when they began the rent-strike, and successive reactions when they didn't know when to stop turning the screw

 

[Sick Boy]

If it's loosing money how did they get it on the cheap?

Yet more clambering to excuse the council. Do you honestly believe that sisu wouldn't have bought the Ricoh had it been offered to them at the same price wasps paid?

 

[Sick Boy]

Must...defend...council...must...defend...council...

It's always comforting to be on the opposite side of the fence to him.

 

[Nick]

Are you schizophrenic? Just two minutes ago you said Fisher was bluffing about the new stadium. Now you're saying it might happen after all. For the avoidance of any doubt please state whether or not you think the stadium has ANY chance of being built under SISU.

The last bit was tongue in cheek...

 

[skybluetony176]

Does that mean sisu lying about a new stadium as part of negotiations and playing the poker game is ok?

Depends on if you're happy having your club used in an expensive gamble (one that's failed by the way incase you hadn't noticed).

Personally it's a no from me. How about you?

 

[Nick]

Indeed they have. Yet some seem to offer blind support to one of these organisations.

Just waiting on the thread saying how proud they are of the Council for their actions...

 

[Nick]

Depends on if you're happy having your club used in an expensive gamble (one that's failed by the way incase you hadn't noticed).

Personally it's a no from me. How about you?

I have said many a time they are all full of shit, in it for themselves rather than the football club. The Council however have always gone the extra mile to play on the heart strings of fans though haven't they?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

But surely after CCFC had actually gone they could see that they were in the shite, but still came out saying otherwise?

Well, the conversation could go something like this:

CCC: 'You're in the shite now, Fisher's gone and taken the club to Sixfields; you've got a great big hole in your business plan'
ACL: 'We've had Coldplay here, Muse have just played and Bruce Springsteen booked for next summer. We're talking to acts XYZ, and we're confident one of those will drop to cover lost income from the football club. Springsteen has sold 37K tickets, for example.'
CCC: 'So, you're confident you can cover off lost incomes and be revenue positive'
ACL: 'Yes'

Thereafter CCC leader makes a statement. The number of times I've made statements based on 'the pipeline' from our sales staff, only for 'dead certs' to fall through are numerous. The difference between my business and that of ACL is that I can normally cover off lost projects with others from elsewhere. Bit harder if you're looking at big-ticket concerts I guess.

I think much of what Lucas has said with regards franchises is crap; and saying one thing about CCFC moving to Sixfields, only to then attract a rugby club from London is extraordinary double-standards. And I also have a long-held view that the vast majority of councillors are self-serving folk who haven't the skill or tenacity to make it in 'the real world'. Like a vocation for the kid who'd put his hand up to offer to be 'prefect' at school.

But a wrong business projection? Just as I've been even-handed to SISU on the 'SISU Out' thread, I've got to say I can see a number of ways a statement made one day looks stupid the next

 

[will am i]

Just waiting on the thread saying how proud they are of the Council for their actions...

Just wondering how our super smart hard nosed owners have managed to get done over by a socialist councillor. Is there anything they are good at?

 

[singers_pore]

The last bit was tongue in cheek...

So you accept the stadium is not going to happen. In which case we are not going to get any more posts from you speculating about "if it happens then ....". It's not like this is the first time you've made this "tongue in cheek" comment that the stadium might be built.