Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
Anyone else says that and they get a new arse ripped! You can't 100% say that will happen!
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Anyone else says that and they get a new arse ripped! You can't 100% say that will happen!
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
SISU/Otium/Fisher/Sepalla. Will tell you exactly what THEY want you to know.. Nothing more.
Nick
Administrator
Digging about what is going on there, trying to find shit out.
Dig about the Ricoh stuff, grill Wasps about it, grill CCFC about that. I understand that they might not want to talk, so then speak to sources, contacts in places. Try and get people to leak stuff.
FOI's are all well and good, but in this case it's no different to the MP and the FL.
Nick
Administrator
I know, that's why I said "I think". I am not guaranteeing it.
Nick
Administrator
As will all of them, and as we have seen, as will the telegraph.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Where have the CET told fans to get outraged?
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
It wouldn't matter if we were at the top of the league would it, the future of the club is the topic.
Esoterica
Well-Known Member
You can't pressure someone who won't feel pressure! I don't see how there is any onus on Wasps to help CCFC secure a rent deal? CCFC having no future ground to play in with no viable local alternative vs Wasps 100k + pies. What's the split of revenue from the f+b deal with Compass? As I see it, that's the only way we can really pressure wasps to talk - stop buying anything on matchdays.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
He was quoted on 'new stadium' this May.
Nick
Administrator
Of course you can pressure them.
Nick
Administrator
Yes, and I've mentioned the wording he used haven't I?
Well, he threw out 19 more than the subscribers to this forum threw out. Probably a bit tricky for all those busy sitting on their hands
Fishy Tim ~TYFO
Esoterica
Well-Known Member
So how do you pressure them? What's their pressure point? They are the one party answerable to no-one in this, other than perhaps the council.
Nick
Administrator
Who Wasps? They are the ones who would actually be bothered by anything negative towards them.
We know what a stickler you are for references, Nick. Trust you'll ask Fisher for evidence of this political embargo, I'm sure he can back it up with copy documents?
I'll be thinking he just makes it all up otherwise.
Fishy Tim ~TYFO
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Digging. Yes we got digging. Then you start waffling on about other stuff we weren't talking about.
So back to the BPA. What digging do you see being required? What questions should be asked? Who should be asking those questions? Who should be answering those questions? Please don't say digging again.
Nick
Administrator
It's almost as if you haven't read where I am saying the Butts stuff should be dug into.
Nick
Administrator
So, first of all try to find out about the political embargo (is it about Millerchip?), find out whats going on with the lease, find out what jon sharpe is planning, try to find out if anything has got any further (have any other external companies possibly been contacted about it by any party, potential architects etc).
Try to find out from contacts within the clubs or the councils for whispers as to what is going on.
Same with the Ricoh deal, find out what is going on there, why did negotiations stop? Why did Wasps start negotiations knowing full well about them and then suddenly stop? Was money discussed? Was the length of contract agreed? Why did the council imply they may have some swing over it if SISU gave them money?
I'm not a journalist as you can probably tell, but it doesn't have to be just ask them and take their answer surely? Simon had Duggins on the ropes once when he asked him about the condition of ccfc not being damaged by wasps coming here (to which I did say fair play about). Duggins gave a no comment and it got left, never to be mentioned again. Could maybe do some more investigation into that, after all it could be used to keep ccfc in coventry couldn't it?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Yes yes yes. We got digging. Care to expand.
skybluebeduff
Well-Known Member
It only took 5 pages but that's a start Nick
Nick
Administrator
I just did.
Things won't get looked into if they don't want to be looked into, see the Wasps / ST land stuff as an example.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Have been away on holiday this last week but read this forum from time to time. Kind of let me stand back a little.
The prime function it seems to me of TF is not stadium locating but division management, and that works very well judging from what I see on here. What he says often has an element of truth, and that seed of truth enables fans/media to take different slants on things and there by be disunited and looking at all sorts of the periphery. He lets out little snippets, briefs the SCG and massages their egos and has quiet chats with others who spread his message (yes I know others seem to also). He points the finger elsewhere, aggressively if necessary, throws in phrases he knows will annoy, others that he knows panders to others, It propagates division, ensures there is no real unity against the owners
Both sides of the media make their points, have their agenda, create headlines then frankly do not dig at all, do not get answers to the real questions. Why are SISU still here, what keeps them here..... its all very well saying they are digging heels in but why? Far too much of what is put in print is unsubstantiated opinion - so from that point of view doing FOI's is something better even if it gives us the answer we expect.
I don't think building a new stadium is the priority any more. So frankly not surprised there is no evidence from the FOI's. I think building a combined training and academy base might be the plan and it is all about wealth extraction. Is BPA important to them ? TF talks about stadium, hotel, retail etc but that requires investment protected from the football club, it requires a commonality of thinking/planning that seems now contradictory at best and partnership with others - so not just "political embargos" preventing it what ever that means
I don't believe Wasps will kick us out but I don't think they will rush to give us any better deal either. The rent may well go up. So TF is comfortable with that risk. That means no pressure to get a stadium built
Then there is the sale of Ryton, I think the plan is actually to generate the funds to invest in a training ground & Academy site. The Ryton sale provides the down payment, add to that the probability of grants being available, the possibility of using player sales (justified by saying "building for the future"), the reduced budget against the increased loyalty payments and you have the potential for creating value in the land assets for the club that can be sold probably with a premium to clear the ARVO debt. I wouldn't think any potential buyer would take on the debts of Otium (loans or preference shares) only the assets, ARVO have a charge over all the assets. So not asset stripping no, and not ready to leave yet either.
It could also be a reason why the Trust interest right now was so unwelcome, right now the value of Ryton is its current use not its development use, you cant have a professional team with nowhere to train, buy the assets of CCFC now and it is millions less than it could be. The reaction to the Trust letter was in my opinion, unprofessional, over the top, deliberately misleading and very calculated. Some of the reaction to the enquiry by the Trust on here and in the media quite ill informed and in my view was amusing had it not been so desperate and sad - the one thing it did illustrate was how divided the fans were, preferring to in fight. Division management - is working and TF is a master at it. Don't look here look over there.
Oh and the value of Otium is £1 not hard to provide proof of funds at that level - as Ian 1779 said on another thread its the working capital that is key - but if Cashflow neutral or positive how big a key?
If the above thought on Ryton is correct, the question would be do we forget the stadium, encourage the Ryton sale, expect new training facilities, trust CCFC/SISU to get it built and cross our fingers SISU then sell - history says that's risky. (that probably also means fan ownership will not happen though)
Final thoughts are, its correct all sides need to be held to account, it is correct that some blame lays elsewhere BUT that doesn't actually provide solutions, that will take compromise humility and looking forwards not back. We all know what we expect CCC & Wasps to compromise on what is it that SISU will?
The prime function it seems to me of TF is not stadium locating but division management, and that works very well judging from what I see on here. What he says often has an element of truth, and that seed of truth enables fans/media to take different slants on things and there by be disunited and looking at all sorts of the periphery. He lets out little snippets, briefs the SCG and massages their egos and has quiet chats with others who spread his message (yes I know others seem to also). He points the finger elsewhere, aggressively if necessary, throws in phrases he knows will annoy, others that he knows panders to others, It propagates division, ensures there is no real unity against the owners
Both sides of the media make their points, have their agenda, create headlines then frankly do not dig at all, do not get answers to the real questions. Why are SISU still here, what keeps them here..... its all very well saying they are digging heels in but why? Far too much of what is put in print is unsubstantiated opinion - so from that point of view doing FOI's is something better even if it gives us the answer we expect.
I don't think building a new stadium is the priority any more. So frankly not surprised there is no evidence from the FOI's. I think building a combined training and academy base might be the plan and it is all about wealth extraction. Is BPA important to them ? TF talks about stadium, hotel, retail etc but that requires investment protected from the football club, it requires a commonality of thinking/planning that seems now contradictory at best and partnership with others - so not just "political embargos" preventing it what ever that means
I don't believe Wasps will kick us out but I don't think they will rush to give us any better deal either. The rent may well go up. So TF is comfortable with that risk. That means no pressure to get a stadium built
Then there is the sale of Ryton, I think the plan is actually to generate the funds to invest in a training ground & Academy site. The Ryton sale provides the down payment, add to that the probability of grants being available, the possibility of using player sales (justified by saying "building for the future"), the reduced budget against the increased loyalty payments and you have the potential for creating value in the land assets for the club that can be sold probably with a premium to clear the ARVO debt. I wouldn't think any potential buyer would take on the debts of Otium (loans or preference shares) only the assets, ARVO have a charge over all the assets. So not asset stripping no, and not ready to leave yet either.
It could also be a reason why the Trust interest right now was so unwelcome, right now the value of Ryton is its current use not its development use, you cant have a professional team with nowhere to train, buy the assets of CCFC now and it is millions less than it could be. The reaction to the Trust letter was in my opinion, unprofessional, over the top, deliberately misleading and very calculated. Some of the reaction to the enquiry by the Trust on here and in the media quite ill informed and in my view was amusing had it not been so desperate and sad - the one thing it did illustrate was how divided the fans were, preferring to in fight. Division management - is working and TF is a master at it. Don't look here look over there.
Oh and the value of Otium is £1 not hard to provide proof of funds at that level - as Ian 1779 said on another thread its the working capital that is key - but if Cashflow neutral or positive how big a key?
If the above thought on Ryton is correct, the question would be do we forget the stadium, encourage the Ryton sale, expect new training facilities, trust CCFC/SISU to get it built and cross our fingers SISU then sell - history says that's risky. (that probably also means fan ownership will not happen though)
Final thoughts are, its correct all sides need to be held to account, it is correct that some blame lays elsewhere BUT that doesn't actually provide solutions, that will take compromise humility and looking forwards not back. We all know what we expect CCC & Wasps to compromise on what is it that SISU will?
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Chris Millerchip. http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-ground-share-coventry-11915196 out of the picture I would think.
John Sharp. Gone quite. Yes could do with pushing. Not sure what he could say about the ground share with CCFC without a joint statement though. Or the development either for that matter.
"Try to find out from contacts within the clubs or the councils for whispers as to what is going on" Isn't that what the FOI's you've got your knickers in a twist about are doing where the councils are concerned. Aren't the CT banned from all non match day activities? I gues that one is going to have to fall on the shoulders of others whether that be the observer, CWR (who can't get TF AKA the man in charge of the new stadium, on the show) or the SCG, try not to laugh.
Political Embargo. What political embargo? TF should clarify because as they have not requested any help of CCC (as far as we know and certainly that's what the FOI's suggest) how can there be an embargo? CCC can't block any planning (not that an application has gone in) for reasons outside of the planning laws. If any planning application doesn't meet planning regs that's not a political embargo that's the law doing it's job. CCC don't have the final say in the planning application appeal process anyway. Is TF suggesting that this "embargo" goes all the way to Westminster? And even then what is that based on? Back to applications etc. Worth noting that if the "political embargo" does go all the way to Westminster no one has told RBC as they're happily comunicating with them regards to the Ryton development. Maybe the embargo is working in the other direction to what it's assumed to have meant? SISU won't talk to CCC because of who they are? Therefore it's SISU's embargo. no one else's.
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Senior Vick from Alicante
Well-Known Member
I think the CT are running stories to try and keep an awareness in the media of our situation as well as factually support their own stance towards SISU amongst their peers. We all know in our heart of hearts that our owners are a busted flush at the moment. The club is run the way it is as they are skint and cant invest in the team let alone a new stadium. That's why in my opinion Fisher always trots out the "we have institutional investors interested" line as his ad hoc response to the funding side of a new stadium.
I would hope that the CT will also look in depth at both CCC and Wasps to give it real balance, Sisu are at fault for a significant amount of what has befallen our club but others have also contributed along the way with no respect for our club or its fans.
The big thing for me is JR2 and will it happen. Their may be something in the way the deal was done with Wasps that the council doesn't want made public. Theirs just a nagging doubt for me as to why and independent company like Wasps would halt negotiations over a long term deal with one of their major income streams when they have such massive debt to service. Is their a skeleton in the closet as Wasps seem to be hand in hand with the council at every stage. I think that their is a game of bluff and double bluff happening at the moment. Sisu want JR2 as they think their is information to come out which will lead to either damage's or possible part ownership of the Ricoh if their is skulduggery proven. Wasps are saying no negotiations until the court case is dropped, I think they may dangle a bigger carrot in front of Sisu as we get closer to crunch time in 18 months from now in regards to better terms at the Ricoh and the academy. Thing is if they do do that as they were bluffing then what will Sisu do? It would indicate they do have something to hide. This is going to run and run I am afraid.
I would hope that the CT will also look in depth at both CCC and Wasps to give it real balance, Sisu are at fault for a significant amount of what has befallen our club but others have also contributed along the way with no respect for our club or its fans.
The big thing for me is JR2 and will it happen. Their may be something in the way the deal was done with Wasps that the council doesn't want made public. Theirs just a nagging doubt for me as to why and independent company like Wasps would halt negotiations over a long term deal with one of their major income streams when they have such massive debt to service. Is their a skeleton in the closet as Wasps seem to be hand in hand with the council at every stage. I think that their is a game of bluff and double bluff happening at the moment. Sisu want JR2 as they think their is information to come out which will lead to either damage's or possible part ownership of the Ricoh if their is skulduggery proven. Wasps are saying no negotiations until the court case is dropped, I think they may dangle a bigger carrot in front of Sisu as we get closer to crunch time in 18 months from now in regards to better terms at the Ricoh and the academy. Thing is if they do do that as they were bluffing then what will Sisu do? It would indicate they do have something to hide. This is going to run and run I am afraid.
Esoterica
Well-Known Member
The football team - they've been compromising that for 9 years.
Nick
Administrator
Is he out of the picture? Nobody seems to know.
You are speaking like journalists need things to fall into their lap and that to get the truth they should just ask them direct, I haven't got my knickers in a twist about FOI's, I have just said they aren't actually proving anything are they?
Political embargo, who knows? Politics doesn't have to just be the council does it?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
He's agreed the sale of the leasehold to John Sharp. Once completed (assuming it isn't already) how would he still be in the picture? The FOI's have proved things though. A) there is no site, for the reasons we've already discussed. B) There has been no approach involving the club at the BPA so how can there be a "political embargo" unless it's coming from the direction of the club? In which case the BPA is a non starter anyway because it isn't going to happen unless the club is willing to get involved with CCC. In which case there is no digging to be done. The answers are already there Nick if you ask me. You just need to be willing to see them.
GaryPendrysEyes
Well-Known Member
Been out for a while...
Can anyone confirm Nick wants to hold Fisher/Sisu (the owner) to account for repeatedly saying a new stadium procurement is ongoing?
Ta
Can anyone confirm Nick wants to hold Fisher/Sisu (the owner) to account for repeatedly saying a new stadium procurement is ongoing?
Ta
Nick
Administrator
The same way PWKH is still in the picture at the Higgs because of the clause he put in.
The FOI proves no approach to CCC has happened yet doesn't it? Doesn't mean things aren't happening with CRFC.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
He's chucked in a few FOIs, hardly what you'd call investigative journalism.
That's not his Facebook, this is his: https://www.facebook.com/TheSimonGilbert/?fref=ts
Of course they do. Where are the questions of the council who promised the club wouldn't be negatively impacted by the arrival of Wasps for example. Or how much pressure is being put on Wasps regarding their sudden decision to stop talking to the club. The CT absolutely should be looking at the way the club is run and the progress, or lack of, with a new stadium but that doesn't mean they should just ignore everyone else involved.
While technically correct its not really as straightforward as that. Look at the correspondence in the Wasps Higgs application and compare it to some other planning applications. CCC were bending over backwards to ensure the Wasps application went through but weren't acting in a similar manner for others.
And, unless it is a standalone stadium, it is likely to be part of a bigger scheme that will involve external funders. There's plenty the council can do to make life difficult in the hope the other parties involved get fed up and either push the club out of their plans or walk away completely. Like, to give a completely hypothetical example, if the club had been involved in a much larger scheme, lets say on the south east boundary of the city, but the council had told those heading the scheme that if certain parts of the scheme weren't amended prior to plans being submitted, say hypothetically to remove a sports stadium, the council would not support the plans and would make their journey through planning as difficult as possible.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Wonder what the exact phrasing of the question was that allows CCC to answer no when they clearly have knowledge of the clubs desire to move to an expanded Butts?
Irish Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Did the FL believe them? Presumably they did. Most City fans know that Fisher was being economical with the truth. Why don't the football authorities? I am pleased that the Telegraph are doing stuff like this. It may be a non story here (although I am not sure that the wider Coventry and Warwickshire readership would know or care about the story), but do people including fans of other outside of our area, do the football authorities. I work in Chelmsley Wood with a few football fans. They only know our story because I keep banging on about it. If one of the national media outlets picks up on this and uses it as part of a story, isn't it worth it? Anything that shows up Sisu for what they really are is all to the good as far as I am concerned
Nick
Administrator
Yes, but then the wider people only get to see 1 side don't they.
For example that thing the other day about the bloke travelling 5,000 miles to protest. People picked up on it, it gets pushed to places like ITV etc. You speak to somebody who only has the Telegraph for their news and see their views and facts etc. For example, how many of the Coventry public are going to hear about the "Open Doors" stuff with the council or Wasps players apparently leaving shite all over a boat?
By all means hammer CCFC, but hammer everything at the same time. Try and get all truths out there, not just selective ones to keep "shareholders" happy. That goes for all sides!
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Irish Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
As you said in previous threads, why not open the doors to their application? This will prove how committed or otherwise they are to the project. I think it is another smoke screen, I suspect you do to. The Butts ground has so many problems to turn it into a football stadium that it is probably a genuine no goer. It would be interesting to see how far Sisu godown this path particularly when it starts costing them money.