Do you want to discuss boring politics? (13 Viewers)

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MalcSB

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Has train driver pay even increased with inflation?


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Can’t see exact figures but around £40k in 2011 with inflation is around £60k today.

Seems all the whining is that collective bargaining actually works and keeps wages from dropping in real terms.
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Aren’t the train drivers getting £69k with the pay rise. On your stats they were already paid in Line with inflation from 2011 without the rise.
 
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MalcSB

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
If you think the people who have gone from supportive of Starmer to not are the far right I have a bridge to sell you.
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That really isn’t what I meant. Do you want me to explain it to you?

You suggested Starmere response to riots was popular, that should have increased his approval rating. I suggested without the riots his approval rating would have been lower. Nowhere does that imply that I think right wingers approve of Starmer, sorry, you are stuck with your bridge. Milliband might buy it though,
 
MalcSB

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Its not a strange analogy. Inflation affects all inputs to a business. Be it energy, wood and metal, or Human Resources. But we decide it’s easier to bully a person into lower wages than bully a supplier into lower prices.

Pay should keep up with inflation as the most basic level, otherwise you are signalling that the job isn’t as important as it was.

For Doctors and Teachers in particular that’s lead to a staffing shortage as the job market responds to that signal.

The Cameron/Osborne approach was to pretend you could just not do stuff. Don’t build any infrastructure. Don’t keep pay up with inflation. And surprise surprise it all came falling down around them.

The so called worst examples, and actually ones I have the most sympathy with the right with, train drivers I’ve just shown haven’t had their wages rise by inflation in the last 13 years. So even them with their ridiculous tactics are falling behind. And still people are moaning and wanting their pay cut more.

Public sector employees can’t negotiate individually. Budgets are set by government. They can only get paid what the government agrees, and the government is far worse than most employers at paying a fair wage. Collective bargaining is the only option to prevent political pressures from cutting wages and with it demand from the economy.
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Doesn’t the graph of train drivers pay actually show the opposite of what you are claiming if £40k in 2011 is worth £60k today?
 
O

OffenhamSkyBlue

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
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From those data, it looks like we as individuals shell out as much as France and Sweden, and not a million miles behind anyone - it is the EMPLOYERS' SSC which is pathetically low compared to other European nations. Denmark is something of an outlier at 35% income tax?? Seriously?? What is their median salary?
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Its not a strange analogy. Inflation affects all inputs to a business. Be it energy, wood and metal, or Human Resources. But we decide it’s easier to bully a person into lower wages than bully a supplier into lower prices.

Pay should keep up with inflation as the most basic level, otherwise you are signalling that the job isn’t as important as it was.

For Doctors and Teachers in particular that’s lead to a staffing shortage as the job market responds to that signal.

The Cameron/Osborne approach was to pretend you could just not do stuff. Don’t build any infrastructure. Don’t keep pay up with inflation. And surprise surprise it all came falling down around them.

The so called worst examples, and actually ones I have the most sympathy with the right with, train drivers I’ve just shown haven’t had their wages rise by inflation in the last 13 years. So even them with their ridiculous tactics are falling behind. And still people are moaning and wanting their pay cut more.

Public sector employees can’t negotiate individually. Budgets are set by government. They can only get paid what the government agrees, and the government is far worse than most employers at paying a fair wage. Collective bargaining is the only option to prevent political pressures from cutting wages and with it demand from the economy.
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I’ve explained that if people are doing their job I think they should get inflationary payrises (unless totally unaffordable)

See my other post about BMA and restricting medical places. Also a large number of junior doctors still trained for the profession in recent years knowing what the pay was (without the 35% restitution - a figure which has also been questioned). As I’ve said before them striking a week or two before the election was totally unacceptable to me

Train drivers have done alright since 2010. Again though, this isn’t about the pay rises, I haven’t got a major issue with the numbers, this is the unwillingness to change even minor conditions to make the services better and/or making sure there’s not any unreasonable striking in the near future

I have no major issue with collective bargaining or unions, when it turns into not willing to accept reasonable changes to conditions, refusing fair pay offers, restricting entrants to profession or role etc this just doesn’t sit well with me

ps if there’s a shortage of teachers or say nurses then I’ve said before, pay them more, offer bursaries to encourage more into profession etc etc. Train drivers, consultants (doctors) etc, I’m sorry but I lack the same sympathy
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
I’ve explained that if people are doing their job I think they should get inflationary payrises (unless totally unaffordable)

See my other post about BMA and restricting medical places. Also a large number of junior doctors still trained for the profession in recent years knowing what the pay was (without the 35% restitution - a figure which has also been questioned). As I’ve said before them striking a week or two before the election was totally unacceptable to me

Train drivers have done alright since 2010. Again though, this isn’t about the pay rises, I haven’t got a major issue with the numbers, this is the unwillingness to change even minor conditions to make the services better and/or making sure there’s not any unreasonable striking in the near future

I have no major issue with collective bargaining or unions, when it turns into not willing to accept reasonable changes to conditions, refusing fair pay offers, restricting entrants to profession or role etc this just doesn’t sit well with me

ps if there’s a shortage of teachers or say nurses then I’ve said before, pay them more, offer bursaries to encourage more into profession etc etc. Train drivers, consultants (doctors) etc, I’m sorry but I lack the same sympathy
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What drove me out of teaching wasn’t the pay, it was the conditions. Which is why many also continue to leave.
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Didn’t a Tory minister admit that it would have cost the public less to agree to the union’s pay claim instead of carrying out a strike campaign? Just that they decided not to give other unions ‘encouragement’.
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Under our brilliantly thought out franchise system the taxpayer is on the hook for compensation to the TOCs when there’s a strike.

At least when it comes to rail most of the stuff around ‘they won’t agree to modernisation’ or ‘they won’t work Sundays’ is absolute rubbish.

There was agreement on the next round of modernisation before the pay talks that led to strike action even began. What is actually being proposed is cuts to safety measures. Oddly enough most people who work on the railways don’t want safety compromised.

But it made a good soundbite for the government and people fell for it. As we’ve seen on here people would much prefer a race to the bottom rather than everyone seeing things improve.
 
MalcSB

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
MalcSB said:
But he was saying things would be different - a change, a return to public service and an end to sleaze.

As the Who put it

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
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As the Jam put it

Good morning, Smithers-Jones
The boss wants to see you alone
I hope it’s that promotion you were looking for
 
MalcSB

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Seems if a Tory says anything it’s gospel on here
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“In November last year, Darren Jones wrote to the Conservatives, following rumours the Winter Fuel Payment might be cut, saying, “Pensioners mustn’t be forced to bear the brunt of Tory economic failure.”

And even Keir Starmer has tweeted a declaration: “My Labour Party will always be on the side of pensioners let down by the Tories”, specifically raising the case of a pensioner struggling to keep warm in winter.”
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
MalcSB said:
In November last year, Darren Jones wrote to the Conservatives, following rumours the Winter Fuel Payment might be cut, saying, “Pensioners mustn’t be forced to bear the brunt of Tory economic failure.”

And even Keir Starmer has tweeted a declaration: “My Labour Party will always be on the side of pensioners let down by the Tories”, specifically raising the case of a pensioner struggling to keep warm in winter.
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You speak as though I support what Starmer has done. I didn’t vote for Labour because I thought they would govern like Tories-and so it is proving
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
As the Jam put it

Good morning, Smithers-Jones
The boss wants to see you alone
I hope it’s that promotion you were looking for
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You clearly have never had a real job in a commercial environment as you constantly make up these imaginary scenarios
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
MalcSB said:
Rightly or wrongly, that’s how you come across.
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He acts like an 18 year old whose studied an A level in social history
 
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