Do you want to discuss boring politics? (16 Viewers)

Grendel

Well-Known Member
LOL Reddit. Is it 2014?

Mate i get rhat fornyou and your mates brown people existing is the most pressing concern in the country. But most people just aren’t that bothered by a Palestinian or BLM march. This is exclusive to GB News and the Mail, 20% of the population max.

20%? Thats the same amount of the population that voted Labour
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
LOL Reddit. Is it 2014?

Mate i get rhat fornyou and your mates brown people existing is the most pressing concern in the country. But most people just aren’t that bothered by a Palestinian or BLM march. This is exclusive to GB News and the Mail, 20% of the population max.

Are you drunk? You can't even write properly and you've gone into full on leftie mode.

'Oh no, maybe he has a point. Quick, let's pull out the racism card and shut it down before I get more humiliated'.

What an utterly embarrasing post.
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
I’ve worked at numerous private companies and not once have they tried to link productivity or any other objectives to inflationary pay rises.

I did work at one place where they decided to more closely monitor how much work people were doing as a means to push them to do more. Within 6 months over 50% of the staff had quit and the company was on the verge of collapse. Ended up being taken over on the cheap by a rivial.

I’ve said before when I was involved in making pay decisions, we’d give inflationary for people just doing their job and above inflation for those going above and beyond (meeting or exceeding objectives and goals). Less than inflation/no payrise if people arent performing or delivering what was expected.
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Collective bargaining is how these nasty unions get the better terms and conditions their members otherwise would not get. Labour didn’t give any of the unions the pay awards they actually wanted FYI-but it did end the strikes.

I agree with some unions and their conduct, others I don’t. It’s like I agree with how some people run businesses/organisations and others I don’t.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Are you drunk? You can't even write properly and you've gone into full on leftie mode.

'Oh no, maybe he has a point. Quick, let's pull out the racism card and shut it down before I get more humiliated'.

What an utterly embarrasing post.

What does Two Tier Kier mean? Because I was under the impression it means racists get arrested but asylum seekers don’t. Which is clearly bollocks. Everything is about asylum seekers with you lot. Get outside. Touch grass. Most people aren’t this obsessed.

sorry I’m not editing my posts. You’ll just have to deal I guess.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Where did I mention ruining the economy ?

Someone from BMA basically indicated they might just strike next year instead though. This is after striking on the lead up to the election when nobody could agree anything with them anyway (a scummy move in my book).

Collective agreements are also very different to individual pay awards. In the private sector it wouldn’t be unreasonable to agree objectives/goals for an individual and if these were met then they’d warrant pay rises, promotions etc the following year. you could argue these are a different form of conditionality

Lets see what the BMA members say.

My bonus is linked to my performance objectives. Not my base pay. I’ve never worked a job where they cut your pay if you don’t meet performance targets. Seems ghastly.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Also how would that even work for collective bargaining? “The median worker isn’t performing so we’re cutting everyone pay” seems insane.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
I said I wasn’t passing comment on either but was just saying it’s not something Cameron would’ve done

I have said previously though that I don’t have an issue with the amount so much as the unconditionality of the agreements. A big error in my book and will lead to issues. I don’t think train drivers pay has fallen in real terms over the past 14 years either

I do agree that it’s out of Cameron’s playbook, blaming the last lot for tough decisions
The Cameron government thought little about putting people into poverty in the name of saving a few pennies.
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Lets see what the BMA members say.

My bonus is linked to my performance objectives. Not my base pay. I’ve never worked a job where they cut your pay if you don’t meet performance targets. Seems ghastly.

I’ve never worked anywhere where pay has been cut but if you’re not doing your job then why should you get a pay rise ?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Has train driver pay even increased with inflation?


IMG_1797.png

Can’t see exact figures but around £40k in 2011 with inflation is around £60k today.

Seems all the whining is that collective bargaining actually works and keeps wages from dropping in real terms.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
The Cameron government thought little about putting people into poverty in the name of saving a few pennies.

Isn’t it estimated around 2 million pensioners will be dragged into fuel poverty to save the same money Starmer is spending on arming Ukraine “for as long as it takes”
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
You say its for Ukraine. Most say its to cover the train drivers pay rise.

Well it seems they need it or they will go cold in the winter - so I guess Ukraine and they are more important. Still if a few old people die in the cold at least it will save some of the NHS black hole
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
If you don’t get CoL rise your pay has been cut.

Do these businesses call up the electricity supplier and demand better electricity before paying inflationary cost rises there too?

Strange analogy but in response if my electricity supply kept cutting off I wouldn’t pay my bill or would expect a discount. If the service was poor I would move to a different electricity supplier.

As I said above, I get it, people on here agree with all unions and all their actions. Fair enough but I don’t. There’s one thing protecting members and making sure conditions are acceptable (100% what unions should do) but I’ve posted some of the suggested changes to train drivers conditions before and many were hardly workhouse rules as I said at the time. BMA have also done stuff I don’t agree with
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Didn’t a Tory minister admit that it would have cost the public less to agree to the union’s pay claim instead of carrying out a strike campaign? Just that they decided not to give other unions ‘encouragement’.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Strange analogy but in response if my electricity supply kept cutting off I wouldn’t pay my bill or would expect a discount. If the service was poor I would move to a different electricity supplier.

As I said above, I get it, people on here agree with all unions and all their actions. Fair enough but I don’t. There’s one thing protecting members and making sure conditions are acceptable (100% what unions should do) but I’ve posted some of the suggested changes to train drivers conditions before and many were hardly workhouse rules as I said at the time. BMA have also done stuff I don’t agree with

It’s very common for private sector pay negotiations to include certain agreements - it makes me laugh that public sector unions refuse on occasions compulsory redundancies. Something private sector could never promise.
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Has train driver pay even increased with inflation?


View attachment 38075

Can’t see exact figures but around £40k in 2011 with inflation is around £60k today.

Seems all the whining is that collective bargaining actually works and keeps wages from dropping in real terms.

Of course it works. They strike if they’re not happy. My issue is does it improve the service and who ends up paying
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
What does Two Tier Kier mean? Because I was under the impression it means racists get arrested but asylum seekers don’t. Which is clearly bollocks. Everything is about asylum seekers with you lot. Get outside. Touch grass. Most people aren’t this obsessed.

sorry I’m not editing my posts. You’ll just have to deal I guess.

Mate, you're all over the place. How can you not see a double standard going on? Pete is liking your posts, which just says it all. Mr Keir Starmer: 'I won't tolerate the break down of law and order'...

We've just had Notting Hill Carnival (the latest iteration) which has been a complete shit show. He's been completely silent, about as missing on this as you and your lefty band of fanatics on the stabbing thread after the last few islamic attacks.

I'm not the one that needs to go outside. It might not be 2014 but you are acting as if you get your benchmarks from reddit. keep going if you want, but it's embarrasing.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
I suspect the two tier Kier stuff has a big part in it as well. I wholeheartedly agree the Tories had to go, but I don't see anyone can stand here and say Labour have started strongly. They seem to be pissing off just about everyone.
They hardly had a ringing endorsement to begin with in terms of the popular vote, and even those that did vote for them did so in many cases as the worst of a bad bunch.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Mate, you're all over the place. How can you not see a double standard going on? Pete is liking your posts, which just says it all. Mr Keir Starmer: 'I won't tolerate the break down of law and order'...

We've just had Notting Hill Carnival (the latest iteration) which has been a complete shit show. He's been completely silent, about as missing on this as you and your lefty band of fanatics on the stabbing thread after the last few islamic attacks.

I'm not the one that needs to go outside. It might not be 2014 but you are acting as if you get your benchmarks from reddit. keep going if you want, but it's embarrasing.

He said the Notting Hill stabbing could be gang related - they weren’t - but even if they were I wasn’t sure what point he was trying to make
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Why should there be any condition to maintaining your pay with inflation?

When inflation is very high many companies have a choice to offer below and preserve the workforce or sacrifice some workers. The car industry was destroyed in the late 70’s when ironically a Labour government negotiated a 5% pay freeze with private sector unions. The unions broke ranks and Vauxhall workers demanded 17%. The industry never recovered - the winter of discontent began
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Why should there be any condition to maintaining your pay with inflation?

An example of a condition could’ve been you don’t strike if you get at least inflationary pay rises for the next x years ? Junior doctors could currently strike next year even if they are offered an inflation pay rise

Also, this is public money, why wouldn’t everyone want things to improve if it was possible and not detrimental to the individuals ?

ps do people even know that he BMA voted to limit/restrict the amount of medical students in 2008 ?!
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Strange analogy but in response if my electricity supply kept cutting off I wouldn’t pay my bill or would expect a discount. If the service was poor I would move to a different electricity supplier.

As I said above, I get it, people on here agree with all unions and all their actions. Fair enough but I don’t. There’s one thing protecting members and making sure conditions are acceptable (100% what unions should do) but I’ve posted some of the suggested changes to train drivers conditions before and many were hardly workhouse rules as I said at the time. BMA have also done stuff I don’t agree with
We have some pretty stringent anti union laws which have accumulated over a period of decades and are aimed at obstructing the rights to organise, collectively bargain, and yes go on strike.

Ask yourself why it is that there has been such an attack on these rights and that may explain why I tend to sympathise with the unions more often than not. Not always though.
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
I’m being facetious, but Cameron took pleasure in taking a knife to public services and used ‘it’s worse than we thought’ as an excuse.

Giving public sector workers their first decent pay award in 14 years is an odd criticism given that their pay has fallen by much more in real terms in that time.
Near in mind that
(a) a note had been left saying there was no money left
(b) the Office for Budget Responsibility haven’t been established

So it probably was worse than he thought. Labour simply don’t have that excuse.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Strange analogy but in response if my electricity supply kept cutting off I wouldn’t pay my bill or would expect a discount. If the service was poor I would move to a different electricity supplier.

As I said above, I get it, people on here agree with all unions and all their actions. Fair enough but I don’t. There’s one thing protecting members and making sure conditions are acceptable (100% what unions should do) but I’ve posted some of the suggested changes to train drivers conditions before and many were hardly workhouse rules as I said at the time. BMA have also done stuff I don’t agree with

Its not a strange analogy. Inflation affects all inputs to a business. Be it energy, wood and metal, or Human Resources. But we decide it’s easier to bully a person into lower wages than bully a supplier into lower prices.

Pay should keep up with inflation as the most basic level, otherwise you are signalling that the job isn’t as important as it was.

For Doctors and Teachers in particular that’s lead to a staffing shortage as the job market responds to that signal.

The Cameron/Osborne approach was to pretend you could just not do stuff. Don’t build any infrastructure. Don’t keep pay up with inflation. And surprise surprise it all came falling down around them.

The so called worst examples, and actually ones I have the most sympathy with the right with, train drivers I’ve just shown haven’t had their wages rise by inflation in the last 13 years. So even them with their ridiculous tactics are falling behind. And still people are moaning and wanting their pay cut more.

Public sector employees can’t negotiate individually. Budgets are set by government. They can only get paid what the government agrees, and the government is far worse than most employers at paying a fair wage. Collective bargaining is the only option to prevent political pressures from cutting wages and with it demand from the economy.
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
Lets see what the BMA members say.

My bonus is linked to my performance objectives. Not my base pay. I’ve never worked a job where they cut your pay if you don’t meet performance targets. Seems ghastly.
The BMA have suggested to the “junior doctors” that they should accept this offer and bank it, and then be prepared for more industrial action next year.

If you want to see jobs which can cut pay for not meeting performance targets, look at Agenda for Change (NHS) Band 9 top of scale posts.
 

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