Do you want to discuss boring politics? (67 Viewers)

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 27, 2024

MalcSB said:
What practical impact has this priority had. Their manifesto said they would stop housing asylum seekers in hotels. We have this week heard of two more local hotels being used.

3) Take back our streets
by halving serious violent crime and raising confidence in the police and criminal justice system to its highest levels.

I would suggest that confidence in the criminal justice is system is decreasing week by week as the Manchester Airport pair remain uncharged. Woe betide you if you think the wrong thoughts though.

“Delivering the change Britain needs will require perseverance. The starting point for delivering these missions is to ensure the foundations of good government are right. Labour will make sure we have strong national security, secure borders, and economic stability. Building on these secure foundations, we have already set out the first steps for change. Today we present further policies in this manifesto, as part of the journey of rebuilding our country.”

Any evidence that the foundations of good government are in place?

Good government is good for everyone, not just train drivers, what we have is a different form of nepo-politics.

You do realise that a manifesto is a plan for a whole term of govt, don't you? It's not they have to do everything immediately.

I also checked their manifesto. It did not put a specific time frame on ending asylum hotels, so it's an entire term pledge.

The exact pledge is
"We will hire additional caseworkers to clear the Conservatives’ backlog and end asylum hotels"

Do you think they could advertise, hire and train enough caseworkers, and for them all to get through the entire backlog (plus any new arrivals), and have those decision go through the entire legal process of appeals in a few months? And even then you still need somewhere to put people that arrive and setting that up takes time. Or would you prefer they just shut the hotels straight away and we had these people roaming the streets sleeping rough?

You're doing yourself harm by the constant criticism, because I, and I'm sure plenty of others, are just thinking "Here he goes, whinging again "

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 27, 2024

MalcSB said:
I’m not contradicting myself. He started his period in office by reaching out to those who hadn’t voted Labour, now he is basically saying I don’t give a shit about them. It’s Starmer who has contradicted himself. Hardly surprising given he’s a lawyer, if you want two legal opinions on something ask one barrister.

The other thing is that petition is very vague. You could just as easily find as many people who are not happy that this government is not being left wing enough. I'm sure the 'Corbynistas' would love to get rid of Starmer. So you could get millions of people signing it and yet almost all of them disagree about why they've signed it.

Would be (and was) the case for the Tories. Loads of people on the left found their right-wing governing disastrous and harmful. But as many on the right of the party were complaining as loudly because they weren't being right wing enough.

Unless you're getting more than half the country signing an online petition is no basis for calling a GE. And if you got that many signatories I'd bet there'd be far bigger protests to highlight that level of dissatisfaction.

MalcSB · Nov 27, 2024

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
The other thing is that petition is very vague. You could just as easily find as many people who are not happy that this government is not being left wing enough. I'm sure the 'Corbynistas' would love to get rid of Starmer. So you could get millions of people signing it and yet almost all of them disagree about why they've signed it.

Would be (and was) the case for the Tories. Loads of people on the left found their right-wing governing disastrous and harmful. But as many on the right of the party were complaining as loudly because they weren't being right wing enough.

Unless you're getting more than half the country signing an online petition is no basis for calling a GE. And if you got that many signatories I'd bet there'd be far bigger protests to highlight that level of dissatisfaction.

It’s up to 2.8 million now, best part of 6 months to run. Who knows how many it will end up at.

If people actually read what the petition is about, its as likely that Labour voters as anyone else would sign it - which is basically what you are suggesting.

PVA · Nov 27, 2024

I reckon at most 1% of those signing it will be Labour voters.

90% Tory and Reform voters and 9% bots.

Sky Blue Pete · Nov 27, 2024

PVA said:
I reckon at most 1% of those signing it will be Labour voters.

90% Tory and Reform voters and 9% bots.

It’s such a pointless thing only in musk and twitters minds does it matter a jot

Grendel · Nov 27, 2024

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
You do realise that a manifesto is a plan for a whole term of govt, don't you? It's not they have to do everything immediately.

I also checked their manifesto. It did not put a specific time frame on ending asylum hotels, so it's an entire term pledge.

The exact pledge is
"We will hire additional caseworkers to clear the Conservatives’ backlog and end asylum hotels"

Do you think they could advertise, hire and train enough caseworkers, and for them all to get through the entire backlog (plus any new arrivals), and have those decision go through the entire legal process of appeals in a few months? And even then you still need somewhere to put people that arrive and setting that up takes time. Or would you prefer they just shut the hotels straight away and we had these people roaming the streets sleeping rough?

You're doing yourself harm by the constant criticism, because I, and I'm sure plenty of others, are just thinking "Here he goes, whinging again "

How many years have you spent whinging on this thread?

PVA · Nov 27, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
It’s such a pointless thing only in musk and twitters minds does it matter a jot

I might have some sympathy if the people wanking themselves silly over this petition weren't the EXACT same people who have spent the last 8 years saying you lost get over it, we love democracy, respect the will of the people, etc.

So instead it's just fucking hilarious.

Grendel · Nov 27, 2024

PVA said:
I might have some sympathy if the people wanking themselves silly over this petition weren't the EXACT same people who have spent the last 8 years saying you lost get over it, we love democracy, respect the will of the people, etc.

So instead it's just fucking hilarious.

I really don’t care about the petition but as I recall the whinging was from people who refused to agree just over 50% of people who voted wasn’t a majority and should be rerun.

PVA · Nov 27, 2024

Grendel said:
I really don’t care about the petition but as I recall the whinging was from people who refused to agree just over 50% of people who voted wasn’t a majority and should be rerun.

I'm not sure anyone said 52% isn't a majority and if they did then they're an idiot. No one would be stupid enough to say that would they.

Would they?

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Grendel · Nov 27, 2024

PVA said:
I'm not sure anyone said 52% isn't a majority and if they did then they're an idiot. No one would be stupid enough to say that would they.

Would they?

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Well it’s interesting you quote old Nigel as he always says something for a reason.

He will be certainly making the most of this election result come 4 years time

PVA · Nov 27, 2024

Grendel said:
Well it’s interesting you quote old Nigel as he always says something for a reason.

He will be certainly making the most of this election result come 4 years time

Yes, he might be able to beat a dolphin for an incredible second time.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 27, 2024

Grendel said:
How many years have you spent whinging on this thread?

Nowhere near as many as you.

fernandopartridge · Nov 27, 2024

shmmeee said:
Id say they’ve beaten having to resign cos you’ve fucked the economy in 49 days, still a bit to go I guess before beating Cameron starting his government proper by fucking the EU referendum and having to resign 13 months later.

It was a new prime minister not a new government technically

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 27, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
It was a new prime minister not a new government technically

But given the huge change in policy and ministers arising from it it's also effectively a new government.

There was more change between Johnson and Truss than there has been between Sunak and Starmer.

shmmeee · Nov 27, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
It was a new prime minister not a new government technically

Compromise on administration?

fernandopartridge · Nov 27, 2024

He's just so devoid of belief in anything isn't he? Utterly content free

Sick Boy · Nov 28, 2024

MalcSB said:
He simply shouldn’t have reached out to non Labour voters at the outset then. It’s hypocrisy and a lack of honesty.

The parliamentary majority despite the support of an electoral minority means that he can’t be held to account by parliament. As someone else has said in this thread, he should at least acknowledge that it is an indicator that there are icebergs ahead, and that they aren’t winning “the argument”.

I can’t remember you saying the same about Johnson?

fernandopartridge · Nov 28, 2024

PVA said:
But 10 million people voted for Tory or Reform.

So that's 10 million people who don't want a Labour government. We knew that the day after the election. So why are we now acting like we need to take a petition of 2 million social media dwellers seriously as some kind of mass democratic movement? That's what the election was for.

You are understating that really as people voted for other parties too

CCFCSteve · Nov 28, 2024

For anyone who doubts there can’t be significant improvements in efficiencies in the nhs and also the potential benefits of getting high quality specialists involved (Palantir are seen as one of the best AI/data integration specialists globally, if not the best). Let’s hope the improvements continue

shmmeee · Nov 28, 2024

CCFCSteve said:
View attachment 39865

For anyone who doubts there can’t be significant improvements in efficiencies in the nhs and also the potential benefits of getting high quality specialists involved (Palantir are seen as one of the best AI/data integration specialists globally, if not the best). Let’s hope the improvements continue

Could be huge and Palantir are one of the best. Thiel is a libertarian arsehole with some strange ideas, but his company is just a bunch of very good data scientists. And will be bound by law like any other.

And frankly these days if you want tech from someone who isn’t a right wing American or a communist Chinese person your options are limited.

fernandopartridge · Nov 28, 2024

MalcSB said:
He simply shouldn’t have reached out to non Labour voters at the outset then. It’s hypocrisy and a lack of honesty.

The parliamentary majority despite the support of an electoral minority means that he can’t be held to account by parliament. As someone else has said in this thread, he should at least acknowledge that it is an indicator that there are icebergs ahead, and that they aren’t winning “the argument”.

That's First Past the Post isn't it

CCFCSteve said:
View attachment 39865

For anyone who doubts there can’t be significant improvements in efficiencies in the nhs and also the potential benefits of getting high quality specialists involved (Palantir are seen as one of the best AI/data integration specialists globally, if not the best). Let’s hope the improvements continue

It's funny really because it's not really all that complex, as far as I'm aware no AI or anything. It's just pulling together all the disparate sets of data.

That said though, this is describing systemic efficiencies. Some of the arguments made about the NHS are that the staff themselves are inefficient, they are not.

PVA · Nov 28, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
You are understating that really as people voted for other parties too

Yes absolutely. I just highlighted those voters as they are the ones you can say for sure didn't want a Labour government.

chiefdave · Nov 28, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
It's funny really because it's not really all that complex, as far as I'm aware no AI or anything. It's just pulling together all the disparate sets of data.

Exactly, you didn't have to be a genius to see huge, and easily solvable problems.

Couple of examples I think I've given on here before. My ex did her ACL. She had a scan at hospital, was then given a CD with the images on to take to the consultant in the building next door. The department doing the scan and the department doing the treatment were run by two different companies and they had no better method of sharing data between the two.

On another occasional I was told by a doctor at the walk in centre to go urgently to the hospital. He had no way of relaying a message to them so sent me off with a hand written letter!

How nobody considered issues like this when bits of the NHS were being outsourced to private companies is beyond me.

MalcSB · Nov 28, 2024

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
You do realise that a manifesto is a plan for a whole term of govt, don't you? It's not they have to do everything immediately.

I also checked their manifesto. It did not put a specific time frame on ending asylum hotels, so it's an entire term pledge.

The exact pledge is
"We will hire additional caseworkers to clear the Conservatives’ backlog and end asylum hotels"

Do you think they could advertise, hire and train enough caseworkers, and for them all to get through the entire backlog (plus any new arrivals), and have those decision go through the entire legal process of appeals in a few months? And even then you still need somewhere to put people that arrive and setting that up takes time. Or would you prefer they just shut the hotels straight away and we had these people roaming the streets sleeping rough?

You're doing yourself harm by the constant criticism, because I, and I'm sure plenty of others, are just thinking "Here he goes, whinging again "

I can’t see how that are going to hire enough people to deliver any of their pledges tbh.Thousands of mental health professionals, teachers. Relying on overtime to reduce NHS waiting lists.

Whilst I take the point about “whole term“ pledges we have already seen the housing pledge extended to being a two terms ambition. Can you not see that pledging to end hotel use and then visibly increasing it within months simply doesn’t look great? It’s an example of them saying one thing and then doing another.

Last week or so we have had slime ball Starmer saying, in the wake of harder carbon targets, that they won’t be telling us how to live our lives. Now the truth is out

Asked at the Commons environmental audit committee ‘to what extent will individual behavioural change be needed’, James Richardson, director of analysis at the CCC, said: ‘In terms of the analysis we’ve done, about 10 per cent of emissions reduction to 2035 comes from what we would think of as behaviour change. That’s predominantly around diets, flying and modal shifting [to] public transport.’

Sounds like being told how to live our lives to me.

Further

Mr Richardson was asked why the installation rate of energy-efficient heat pumps is nowhere near hitting the Government’s target of 600,000 a year by 2028.

He said installing a pump would hit consumers in the pocket as they are more expensive to run than gas boilers, adding that ‘at the moment, if you do the right thing you will lose from it’.

You and others may, probably correctly, view me as constantly whingeing. I would far rather not be presented with something to whinge about on a daily basis.

shmmeee · Nov 28, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
That's First Past the Post isn't it

It's funny really because it's not really all that complex, as far as I'm aware no AI or anything. It's just pulling together all the disparate sets of data.

That said though, this is describing systemic efficiencies. Some of the arguments made about the NHS are that the staff themselves are inefficient, they are not.

Most of the inefficiencies I hear about second hand are either requiring hardware investment or legislative (eg needing wet signatures, hard copies etc).

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Nov 28, 2024

MalcSB said:
I can’t see how that are going to hire enough people to deliver any of their pledges tbh.Thousands of mental health professionals, teachers. Relying on overtime to reduce NHS waiting lists.

Whilst I take the point about “whole term“ pledges we have already seen the housing pledge extended to being a two terms ambition. Can you not see that pledging to end hotel use and then visibly increasing it within months simply doesn’t look great? It’s an example of them saying one thing and then doing another.

Last week or so we have had slime ball Starmer saying, in the wake of harder carbon targets, that they won’t be telling us how to live our lives. Now the truth is out

Asked at the Commons environmental audit committee ‘to what extent will individual behavioural change be needed’, James Richardson, director of analysis at the CCC, said: ‘In terms of the analysis we’ve done, about 10 per cent of emissions reduction to 2035 comes from what we would think of as behaviour change. That’s predominantly around diets, flying and modal shifting [to] public transport.’

Sounds like being told how to live our lives to me.

Further

Mr Richardson was asked why the installation rate of energy-efficient heat pumps is nowhere near hitting the Government’s target of 600,000 a year by 2028.

He said installing a pump would hit consumers in the pocket as they are more expensive to run than gas boilers, adding that ‘at the moment, if you do the right thing you will lose from it’.

You and others may, probably correctly, view me as constantly whingeing. I would far rather not be presented with something to whinge about on a daily basis.

It doesn't sound like being told how to live our lives. It sounds like encouraging behavioural change, probably using public information bulletins and some changes to the legal and tax system to encourage certain behaviour and discourage others. Which is exactly what every government does.

Not saying "you can't do this", it's "it would be better if you didn't do that, or did this instead". Like big taxes on alcohol and cigarettes. You can still smoke and drink if you want to, but they're going to make it less desirable because it's very damaging.

chiefdave · Nov 28, 2024

You can't recruit people overnight unless you bring them in from other countries. We haven't got thousand of doctors, GPs, teachers etc sat around waiting for the call.

Bringing them in from overseas will mean also allowing their families in which we're told people won't accept. So either people have to change their minds on that or we're going to be waiting years for any change. You need to make training in those professions more attractive to recruit people in then wait years for them to complete the training.

Heat pumps, insulation etc need money thrown at them, its as simple as that. There will be many people in the same position as me who have old houses with fuck all insulation. When you get quotes and are told its going to be anything up to £10K its simply not happening. Its unaffordable. Previously you could get a grant but that was obviously cut years ago. No prizes for guessing what happened to the number of people insulating their houses when the grants were removed.

Will be the same story with heat pumps. Why are people going to spend for no benefit?

MalcSB · Nov 28, 2024

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It doesn't sound like being told how to live our lives. It sounds like encouraging behavioural change, probably using public information bulletins and some changes to the legal and tax system to encourage certain behaviour and discourage others. Which is exactly what every government does.

Not saying "you can't do this", it's "it would be better if you didn't do that, or did this instead". Like big taxes on alcohol and cigarettes. You can still smoke and drink if you want to, but they're going to make it less desirable because it's very damaging.

It sounds exactly like being told how to live our lives, being controlled by one means or another. It’s another example of Starmer opening his gob and sticking his foot right in it, another example where he should have said nothing.

Words cannot adequately express how much I despise that man. Is that being misandrist?

MalcSB · Nov 28, 2024

chiefdave said:
You can't recruit people overnight unless you bring them in from other countries. We haven't got thousand of doctors, GPs, teachers etc sat around waiting for the call.

Bringing them in from overseas will mean also allowing their families in which we're told people won't accept. So either people have to change their minds on that or we're going to be waiting years for any change. You need to make training in those professions more attractive to recruit people in then wait years for them to complete the training.

Heat pumps, insulation etc need money thrown at them, its as simple as that. There will be many people in the same position as me who have old houses with fuck all insulation. When you get quotes and are told its going to be anything up to £10K its simply not happening. Its unaffordable. Previously you could get a grant but that was obviously cut years ago. No prizes for guessing what happened to the number of people insulating their houses when the grants were removed.

Will be the same story with heat pumps. Why are people going to spend for no benefit?

Re heat pumps, they aren’t going to spend for no benefit through choice, so there will be an element of compulsion.

mmttww · Nov 28, 2024

Net migration to UK hit record 906,000 in year to June 2023, revised figures show - live updates

Net migration to the UK was 906,000 in the year up to June 2023 - far higher than previous estimates - and 728,000 a year later.

www.bbc.co.uk

"STOP THE BOATS" and Rwanda worked a treat, innit. Not expecting a mature discussion about how you reverse a long term trend or accept that trend and plan for how to make the best of the situation... but a LOL for now.

PVA · Nov 28, 2024

mmttww said:
Net migration to UK hit record 906,000 in year to June 2023, revised figures show - live updates

Net migration to the UK was 906,000 in the year up to June 2023 - far higher than previous estimates - and 728,000 a year later.

www.bbc.co.uk

"STOP THE BOATS" and Rwanda worked a treat, innit. Not expecting a mature discussion about how you reverse a long term trend or accept that trend and plan for how to make the best of the situation... but a LOL for now.

Clearly Starmer is not fit for government

Genrull Ellection, now!!!1!

Como · Nov 28, 2024

shmmeee · Nov 28, 2024

Como said:

Just a prick move to bother a bunch of people doing their jobs for likes TBH

Como · Nov 28, 2024

More likes

shmmeee · Nov 28, 2024

Como said:
More likes

Also a prick move for likes.

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