Do you want to discuss boring politics? (13 Viewers)

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shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
duffer

duffer

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
What makes them to the right of the government that privatised Royal Mail and the probation service? I can only guess you’re counting Brexit as a socialist win?
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Come on mate, are you really pretending that this Labour party is somehow left leaning?

On what evidence?

This "Labour" party has adopted Tory fiscal policy and now their welfare policy too.

They are literally cutting benefits to the old, disabled, and unemployed. They are actively hobbling environmental, consumer, and financial regulators. They're delighting in publicly recreating that hostile environment for immigration.

Their solution to the NHS is, guess what, top-down reorganisation.

Kid yourself all you want mate, but a bit of tinkering around the edges on the railways, and some far off and almost certainly watered down legislation on 'workers rights', does not make this a government of the left.

Poor people will get poorer, and rich people will get richer is all that you're getting here, and there's nothing left wing about that.

We've seen elsewhere what happens to centrist governments that make noises about change, but change nothing, and it's not pretty. That's where we're heading too.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
duffer said:
Come on mate, are you really pretending that this Labour party is somehow left leaning?

On what evidence?

This "Labour" party has adopted Tory fiscal policy and now their welfare policy too.

They are literally cutting benefits to the old, disabled, and unemployed. They are actively hobbling environmental, consumer, and financial regulators. They're delighting in publicly recreating that hostile environment for immigration.

Their solution to the NHS is, guess what, top-down reorganisation.

Kid yourself all you want mate, but a bit of tinkering around the edges on the railways, and some far off and almost certainly watered down legislation on 'workers rights', does not make this a government of the left.

Poor people will get poorer, and rich people will get richer is all that you're getting here, and there's nothing left wing about that.

We've seen elsewhere what happens to centrist governments that make noises about change, but change nothing, and it's not pretty. That's where we're heading too.
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Same question to you.

By any rational metric they’re the most left wing govt in most people in this threads lifetime. Being left wing is more than just increasing all departmental budgets.
 
David O'Day

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
The welfare system should be about protecting the most vulnerable and helping those who want to work back into work.

For the usual suspects what is the answer? A wealth tax? Likely to force wealth out of the country.

What is your sensible solution to the ever increasing DWP bill?
 
Mucca Mad Boys

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
The Blair government was far more progressive than this one.
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The public purse was also in a far better state…

I’m no mystic Meg, but before the election I did say that the reason Labour won’t be able spend lots on policy areas it traditionally likes is for the same reason the markets punished Liz Truss’ ill-fated government for unfunded tax cuts.

The government of the day is beholden to the debt markets.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
David O'Day said:
The welfare system should be about protecting the most vulnerable and helping those who want to work back into work.

For the usual suspects what is the answer? A wealth tax? Likely to force wealth out of the country.

What is your sensible solution to the ever increasing DWP bill?
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Blimey Norman Tebbit is back from the dead
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Mucca Mad Boys said:
The public purse was also in a far better state…

I’m no mystic Meg, but before the election I did say that the reason Labour won’t be able spend lots on policy areas it traditionally likes is for the same reason the markets punished Liz Truss’ ill-fated government for unfunded tax cuts.

The government of the day is beholden to the debt markets.
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Spending priorities are a political choice.

As just one gripe, VAT was jacked up to 20% for seemingly arbitrary reasons and cutting it back to the previous 17.5, never mind 15 it temporarily was under Gordon Brown, hasn't been entertained. It's a regressive sales tax that hits businesses and individuals and has a fair impact on the cost of living.

Would a 2.5% VAT cut spook the markets?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Was it? Or was it just taking place during an economic boom? It spent most of its time privatising health and education.
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It brought in the minimum wage and brought loads of schools out of disrepair after the Tories had allowed them to rot. Instead this government is so obsessed with penny pinching that it will walk into an electorate that has seen nothing substantively improve and look to the far right for an answer.
 
Mucca Mad Boys

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Spending priorities are a political choice.

As just one gripe, VAT was jacked up to 20% for seemingly arbitrary reasons and cutting it back to the previous 17.5, never mind 15 it temporarily was under Gordon Brown, hasn't been entertained. It's a regressive sales tax that hits businesses and individuals and has a fair impact on the cost of living.

Would a 2.5% VAT cut spook the markets?
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Yes and those political choices have implications.

I’d love to see tax cuts and a government unfreezing tax brackets. It’s forced people into higher tax bands and disincentivises work for many people at the lower earning thresholds.

Markets are sensitive to ‘unfunded’ government expenditure and applies equally to spending commitments as well as tax cuts. The implication is that any reformist government, left or right is stuck in a quandary. Hence the Labour government taking a similar tack to the last Tory government.
 
Captain Dart

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Ccfcisparks said:
I'm a supporter for welfare, but it is ridiculously exploited by some.
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The reality is the government is proving to be a serious disaster.

Its actually cutting through the welfare system in a way the Tories would not have dared. The savings are miniscule and just exceed the additional funding strangely found to blow away on continuing to back Zelensky.

The zeal and pleasure they seem to be getting from it is pure Thatersism

The Economy meanwhile is shrinking fast and the government increase on employers bearing the cost is deluded.

In two months I have had two customers and three suppliers go bust. Others will be making redundancies in April to mitigate NI and minimum wage hikes. The growth strategy is non existent. I am likely to have to make job cuts in April as customer demand is declining alarmingly.

Reeves is clueless and is wrecking the economy.

Its not a left or right argument - its just facts
 
Ccfcisparks

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
The reality is the government is proving to be a serious disaster.

Its actually cutting through the welfare system in a way the Tories would not have dared. The savings are miniscule and just exceed the additional funding strangely found to blow away on continuing to back Zelensky.

The zeal and pleasure they seem to be getting from it is pure Thatersism

The Economy meanwhile is shrinking fast and the government increase on employers bearing the cost is deluded.

In two months I have had two customers and three suppliers go bust. Others will be making redundancies in April to mitigate NI and minimum wage hikes. The growth strategy is non existent. I am likely to have to make job cuts in April as customer demand is declining alarmingly.

Reeves is clueless and is wrecking the economy.

Its not a left or right argument - its just facts
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Yep Starmer has snuck into government dressed as a left winger, but in reality he's horrendously right.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Ccfcisparks said:
Yep Starmer has snuck into government dressed as a left winger, but in reality he's horrendously right.
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It’s an odd mix of Tory desires to get benefits reduced and and yet tax businesses when there is zero strategy at growing the economy

Reeves couldn’t run a chip shop - she’s pitifully out of her depth
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Yes and those political choices have implications.

I’d love to see tax cuts and a government unfreezing tax brackets. It’s forced people into higher tax bands and disincentivises work for many people at the lower earning thresholds.

Markets are sensitive to ‘unfunded’ government expenditure and applies equally to spending commitments as well as tax cuts. The implication is that any reformist government, left or right is stuck in a quandary. Hence the Labour government taking a similar tack to the last Tory government.
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Well, it is if it refuses to argue that you can’t provide strong public services on the cheap. Scandinavians seem to have no issue with the concept.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
It’s an odd mix of Tory desires to get benefits reduced and and yet tax businesses when there is zero strategy at growing the economy

Reeves couldn’t run a chip shop - she’s pitifully out of her depth
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She’s better at running the country than she was at playing chess I suppose
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
What makes them to the right of the government that privatised Royal Mail and the probation service? I can only guess you’re counting Brexit as a socialist win?
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They've not renationalised it or anything else really as yet? They have ducked water renationalisation despite the chronic problems with the sector. Energy LOL, they've established Great British Energy to do something. I'm sure plans are afoot to renationalise Royal Mail and take telecoms back into public ownership where they should be? The probation service was renationalised by the Tories a few years ago.

The coalition introduced the structure of the welfare system we have today that the current government. The current government retains all of its main features, e.g. the two child benefit cap, the bedroom tax, the structure of Universal Credit. The current government is reducing the circumstances in which you can claim Universal Credit.

Brexit was the government after that.
David O'Day said:
The welfare system should be about protecting the most vulnerable and helping those who want to work back into work.

For the usual suspects what is the answer? A wealth tax? Likely to force wealth out of the country.

What is your sensible solution to the ever increasing DWP bill?
Click to expand...
You utter fucking clown.
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Reeves somehow managing the perfect storm of reducing demand through consumers having fuck all to spend while increasing costs to businesses that employ them. Just a disaster. Absolutely no reasons for optimism for anybody but the BlackRocks of this world who their boy McSweeney represents.
 
Mucca Mad Boys

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Ian1779 said:
Welfare exploitation will always be minuscule in comparison to tax avoidance and evasion.
To suggest otherwise is laughable.
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Two separate topics.

In a recent poll, 4 in 10 Gen Zers are considering quitting work to live on benefits, often citing mental health. That clearly risks benefit boom that isn’t fit for purpose.

That clearly isn’t what the vision that Nye Bevan would have for the welfare state - the old Labourites were very much in favour of ‘something for something’. Even Frank Field in the last Labour government looked sustainability of the welfare state and suggested something similar to an individual social security fund.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Two separate topics.

In a recent poll, 4 in 10 Gen Zers are considering quitting work to live on benefits, often citing mental health. That clearly risks benefit boom that isn’t fit for purpose.

That clearly isn’t what the vision that Nye Bevan would have for the welfare state - the old Labourites were very much in favour of ‘something for something’. Even Frank Field in the last Labour government looked sustainability of the welfare state and suggested something similar to an individual social security fund.
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The old Labourites were saying that in the era of jobs for life, strong union membership to protect pay and conditions, more secure employment and housing far closer to wages in cost than today.

Work does not pay if your employment is insecure, wages not keeping up with living costs and pension schemes a shadow of their former selves. I cannot speak much for Gen Z, but among my millennial friends now all in our 30s, 3 of us have/are having children, the rest aren't and it's for economic reasons. The consequences of this declining birth rate we are already seeing and it will either be that you need to be rich to have children or get the state to drastically increase the level of financial support for new parents.

People need to look beyond the up front cost of anything as a reason not to do it. 14 years of the Tories underfunding most things in the name of saving money has ultimately left us with a system in very bad shape needing even more money to fix it than if we'd made the commitments in the first place.
 
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