Do you want to discuss boring politics? (15 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

Scandinavians seem to be among the happiest people in the world paying high taxes in exchange for excellent public services, good pay and conditions at work etc. People insisting on belt tightening seem to forget we have counter arguments on our doorstep

This is more the discussion we should be having. What are people happy to pay for good public services and then can the government deliver them ! Unfortunately the lack of confidence in the latter (all political parties) makes the former trickier

At the moment for example I’m paying significantly more council tax due to a total mismanagement of finances by the council (which effectively went bust) and yet not even having bins collected

 

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[Mucca Mad Boys]

Scandinavians seem to be among the happiest people in the world paying high taxes in exchange for excellent public services, good pay and conditions at work etc. People insisting on belt tightening seem to forget we have counter arguments on our doorstep

One thing about the Scandinavian countries is that they have comparatively more draconian immigration policies than we do. We wouldn’t describe Scandinavia as multicultural either.

Sweden has ‘remigration’ policies and Denmark has anti-ghetto laws that have been described as ‘far right’ on this thread months ago.

It goes back to what ‘New Right’ economists of the 1970/80s were saying that you can’t have free immigration and a welfare state. The population grew by 6 million people between 2010-2022 and is expected to grow another 6.2m by 2036, is it a surprise public services and housing provision suffer as the state is unable to keep up.

These are uncomfortable truths that many on the left just aren’t ready to accept.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This is more the discussion we should be having. What are people happy to pay for good public services and then can the government deliver them ! Unfortunately the lack of confidence in the latter (all political parties) makes the former trickier

At the moment for example I’m paying significantly more council tax due to a total mismanagement of finances by the council (which effectively went bust) and yet not even having bins collected

It does peeve me a bit to see straw man characterisations (not by you in this post) of the progressive position being infinite government spending, government control over everything etc etc. The Scandinavian nations don't get everything right, but they seem to have cracked it by doing things denounced as 'hard left' in this country, e.g. with high levels of unionisation to protect wages and workers rights, high tax/high spending on social policies etc.

That doesn't mean we want the government running every industry or interfering in every aspect of life.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

One thing about the Scandinavian countries is that they have comparatively more draconian immigration policies than we do. We wouldn’t describe Scandinavia as multicultural either.

Sweden has ‘remigration’ policies and Denmark has anti-ghetto laws that have been described as ‘far right’ on this thread months ago.

It goes back to what ‘New Right’ economists of the 1970/80s were saying that you can’t have free immigration and a welfare state. The population grew by 6 million people between 2010-2022 and is expected to grow another 6.2m by 2036, is it a surprise public services and housing provision suffer as the state is unable to keep up.

These are uncomfortable truths that many on the left just aren’t ready to accept.

Why do you and others keep straw manning the left position as wanting to let everyone immigrate into the country unchecked?

 

[mmttww]

One thing about the Scandinavian countries is that they have comparatively more draconian immigration policies than we do.

Isn't this a relatively recent thing, and largely a result of a tilt to the right politically over the last few years? I'm pretty sure their model of higher taxes to fund services is much more long-standing than that. Not sure your inference that their funding model for services is only possible because of more restrictive immigration holds up.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The are limitations to government spending of course, but they are nothing to do with tax collection which you continuously imply.

In your view, what are these limitations?

To say it has nothing to do with tax collection is either dishonest or splitting hairs. The Consolidation Fund has a balance sheet to maintain, so whilst it creates money ‘out of thin air’, there still has to be credits into the system to maintain a perception of fiscal management. How does the Government primarily credit the Consolidation Fund? Taxation.

It’s basic common sense that if what you’re saying is true, why would any government forgo the popularity of tax cuts and/or spending on public services?

 

[Captain Dart]

Labour voters brace yourselves. Just what you always wanted.

Reeves to reveal biggest UK spending cuts since austerity in spring statement

Labour MPs uneasy as chancellor prepares even deeper reductions that economists say will harm key services

www.theguardian.com

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Why do you and others keep straw manning the left position as wanting to let everyone immigrate into the country unchecked?

It’s not limited to the political left as a whole. There’s elements of the neoliberal right who champion mass immigration for cheap labour and ‘economic growth’.

I mentioned ‘the left’ specifically is because they tend to be much more comfortable shouting public services are systematically underfunded. Many on the left (for this purpose, let’s include One Nation Tories) haven’t come to terms that mass migration and a comprehensive welfare state aren’t particularly compatible.

Isn't this a relatively recent thing, and largely a result of a tilt to the right politically over the last few years? I'm pretty sure their model of higher taxes to fund services is much more long-standing than that. Not sure your inference that their funding model for services is only possible because of more restrictive immigration holds up.

You’re correct. However, the data coming out of Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and UK is that mass immigration (especially low income, low skilled) essentially hollows out a country’s welfare state. This is part of the reason why the Netherlands Denmark and Sweden in particular have swung to the right on this issue.

The OBR came out and outlined the costs of low income migration. On housing, currently 40% of social housing occupants in London were born out of the UK.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s not limited to the political left as a whole. There’s elements of the neoliberal right who champion mass immigration for cheap labour and ‘economic growth’.

I mentioned ‘the left’ specifically is because they tend to be much more comfortable shouting public services are systematically underfunded. Many on the left (for this purpose, let’s include One Nation Tories) haven’t come to terms that mass migration and a comprehensive welfare state aren’t particularly compatible.



You’re correct. However, the data coming out of Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and UK is that mass immigration (especially low income, low skilled) essentially hollows out a country’s welfare state. This is part of the reason why the Netherlands Denmark and Sweden in particular have swung to the right on this issue.

The OBR came out and outlined the costs of low income migration. On housing, currently 40% of social housing occupants in London were born out of the UK.

You're assigning positions to people that they don't hold.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You're assigning positions to people that they don't hold.

In that case, I apologise.

Why did you choose Scandinavia as your example? Are you willing to hold positions that some would consider ‘far right’ on immigration in order to ‘save’ the welfare state?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It’s not limited to the political left as a whole. There’s elements of the neoliberal right who champion mass immigration for cheap labour and ‘economic growth’.

I mentioned ‘the left’ specifically is because they tend to be much more comfortable shouting public services are systematically underfunded. Many on the left (for this purpose, let’s include One Nation Tories) haven’t come to terms that mass migration and a comprehensive welfare state aren’t particularly compatible.



You’re correct. However, the data coming out of Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and UK is that mass immigration (especially low income, low skilled) essentially hollows out a country’s welfare state. This is part of the reason why the Netherlands Denmark and Sweden in particular have swung to the right on this issue.

The OBR came out and outlined the costs of low income migration. On housing, currently 40% of social housing occupants in London were born out of the UK.

Just because there could be improvements made in the efficiency of delivery of public services doesn't mean they aren't also chronically underfunded. They are.

Just as many on the right think we're overtaxed, I would say that given the examples of other countries in comparison to QoL we are massively undertaxing, especially the wealthy.

 

[Grendel]

You're assigning positions to people that they don't hold.

Sounds like heaven I'm in

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(23)00028-5/fulltext#:~:text=Sweden's%20Gini%2Dcoefficient%E2%80%94a%20measure,society%2C%20which%20Sweden%20is%20facing.

 

[Grendel]

Just because there could be improvements made in the efficiency of delivery of public services doesn't mean they aren't also chronically underfunded. They are.

Just as many on the right think we're overtaxed, I would say that given the examples of other countries in comparison to QoL we are massively undertaxing, especially the wealthy.

Sweden removed wealth taxes and inheritance tax didn't they?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Just because there could be improvements made in the efficiency of delivery of public services doesn't mean they aren't also chronically underfunded. They are.

Just as many on the right think we're overtaxed, I would say that given the examples of other countries in comparison to QoL we are massively undertaxing, especially the wealthy.

I’m trying to be empathetic to the underfunded argument.

If your population grows by 12m in 26-or-so years as it is projected to do so between 2010-2036, do you think that could have an impact on a state’s capacity to actually provide essential public services?

Sounds like heaven I'm in

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(23)00028-5/fulltext#:~:text=Sweden's%20Gini%2Dcoefficient%E2%80%94a%20measure,society%2C%20which%20Sweden%20is%20facing.

Sweden has the most billionaires per capita than any other country and Norway doesn’t have a minimum wage.

It isn’t quite the socialist paradise many expect it to be.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

In that case, I apologise.

Why did you choose Scandinavia as your example? Are you willing to hold positions that some would consider ‘far right’ on immigration in order to ‘save’ the welfare state?

I have never argued against sensible limits on immigration. A country that relies too heavily on foreign labour is not economically secure for a raft of reasons.

My argument for some time has been that to get immigration down to manageable levels, we need to commit to better working conditions and pay in the sectors where we rely heavily on foreign labour. Likewise, taking state education more seriously so we can produce more of our own skilled workers to again reduce dependency on getting them from overseas.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Sweden removed wealth taxes and inheritance tax didn't they?

Norway had to introduce exit taxes to get around its wealthy people leaving.

Wealth taxes that people like Gary Stevenson espouse just don’t work.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Sounds like heaven I'm in

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(23)00028-5/fulltext#:~:text=Sweden's%20Gini%2Dcoefficient%E2%80%94a%20measure,society%2C%20which%20Sweden%20is%20facing.

This is an article that supports progressive policy positions and highlights Sweden lurching to the right leading to worse outcomes.

 

[mmttww]

You’re correct. However, the data coming out of Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and UK is that mass immigration (especially low income, low skilled) essentially hollows out a country’s welfare state.

Does data from the UK acknowledge that 14 years of cuts to public services and tax giveaways to win votes probably played a part in hollowing out the welfare state? Interested in any links you've got to the data you've cited.

 

[Captain Dart]

Just because there could be improvements made in the efficiency of delivery of public services doesn't mean they aren't also chronically underfunded. They are.

Just as many on the right think we're overtaxed, I would say that given the examples of other countries in comparison to QoL we are massively undertaxing, especially the wealthy.

Under taxed you say, this is highest UK tax burden in my life.

 

[Grendel]

This is an article that supports progressive policy positions and highlights Sweden lurching to the right leading to worse outcomes.

But Sweden have stopped wealth taxation and generally reduced the burden on taxing the wealthy as its acknowledged in has to encourage wealthy people to remain to boost the economy.

Most of Scandinavia does not have a minimum wage either - something you frequently demand here is increased

 

[Ccfcisparks]

But Sweden have stopped wealth taxation and generally reduced the burden on taxing the wealthy as its acknowledged in has to encourage wealthy people to remain to boost the economy.

Most of Scandinavia does not have a minimum wage either - something you frequently demand here is increased

Theres not a legal minimum wage, but theres pretty good relationships between employment organisations and unions where they establish a non descript minimum wage.

 

[Grendel]

Theres not a legal minimum wage, but theres pretty good relationships between employment organisations and unions where they establish a non descript minimum wage.

Maybe so but the Gini coeffcient has Sweden higher now than many other EU countries - so the rich v poor gap is strong and increasing

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But Sweden have stopped wealth taxation and generally reduced the burden on taxing the wealthy as its acknowledged in has to encourage wealthy people to remain to boost the economy.

Most of Scandinavia does not have a minimum wage either - something you frequently demand here is increased

Minimum wages are not in place because the Nordic countries generally have high levels of union membership and collective bargaining to secure better pay. It became necessary in this country after unions were largely dismantled and membership greatly reduced in size.

 

[Grendel]

Minimum wages are not in place because the Nordic countries generally have high levels of union membership and collective bargaining to secure better pay. It became necessary in this country after unions were largely dismantled and membership greatly reduced in size.

Why is the rich to poor gap no better then than in any other major EU countries?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why is the rich to poor gap no better then than in any other major EU countries?

Why do the Nordic countries consistently rank as the happiest in the world?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Under taxed you say, this is highest UK tax burden in my life.
View attachment 42154

So just proves that as a country we're historically undertaxed.

 

[Grendel]

Why do the Nordic countries consistently rank as the happiest in the world?

Well clearly nothing to do with factors such as rich v poor, widening gap between the wealthy and not, unemployment levels (Sweden is 4th highest in the EU) or targeting taxing the wealthy.

So its clearly nothing to do with economic factors or political policy

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I’m trying to be empathetic to the underfunded argument.

If your population grows by 12m in 26-or-so years as it is projected to do so between 2010-2036, do you think that could have an impact on a state’s capacity to actually provide essential public services?

Of course it affects their ability to provide services as there's more people to provide services for. Therefore you need to expand those services in order to do so. How do you do that? Money.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well clearly nothing to do with factors such as rich v poor, widening gap between the wealthy and not, unemployment levels (Sweden is 4th highest in the EU) or targeting taxing the wealthy.

So its clearly nothing to do with economic factors or political policy

You have highlighted Sweden both moving away from progressive policy while also experiencing more of the problems we have in this country. Do you not see the connection?

 

[Grendel]

So just proves that as a country we're historically undertaxed.

Our income tax levels are the 8th highest in the world

 

[Grendel]

You have highlighted Sweden both moving away from progressive policy while also experiencing more of the problems we have in this country. Do you not see the connection?

Has it impacted their happiness index?

Have they not also seen immigration as an issue thats caused problems?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Our income tax levels are the 8th highest in the world

What’s going wrong then eh

 

[Grendel]

What’s going wrong then eh

I never really understand why people think higher taxation is a positive way of increasing the governments ability to spend on services

 

[chiefdave]

This is more the discussion we should be having. What are people happy to pay for good public services and then can the government deliver them ! Unfortunately the lack of confidence in the latter (all political parties) makes the former trickier

At the moment for example I’m paying significantly more council tax due to a total mismanagement of finances by the council (which effectively went bust) and yet not even having bins collected

You've answered your own questions there. People aren't happy to pay more taxes when they aren't seeing any improvement in services and are seeing blank cheques being passed to mates of whoever the government of the time is.

Taxes have been increasing but I don't think anyone would argue services have been improving. Therefore people aren't going to believe that simply handing over more will resolve any, let alone all, issues.

These are uncomfortable truths that many on the left just aren’t ready to accept.

Don't think that's true at all. Most people are open to a sensible discussion on immigration and I think the position of 'the left' when its referred to as a single entity is often misrepresented. I don't see many people on the left who want a free for all on immigration or who won't have a sensible discussion on immigration policy.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Has it impacted their happiness index?

Have they not also seen immigration as an issue thats caused problems?

Judge for yourself