Scandinavians seem to be among the happiest people in the world paying high taxes in exchange for excellent public services, good pay and conditions at work etc. People insisting on belt tightening seem to forget we have counter arguments on our doorstep
Scandinavians seem to be among the happiest people in the world paying high taxes in exchange for excellent public services, good pay and conditions at work etc. People insisting on belt tightening seem to forget we have counter arguments on our doorstep
It does peeve me a bit to see straw man characterisations (not by you in this post) of the progressive position being infinite government spending, government control over everything etc etc. The Scandinavian nations don't get everything right, but they seem to have cracked it by doing things denounced as 'hard left' in this country, e.g. with high levels of unionisation to protect wages and workers rights, high tax/high spending on social policies etc.This is more the discussion we should be having. What are people happy to pay for good public services and then can the government deliver them ! Unfortunately the lack of confidence in the latter (all political parties) makes the former trickier
At the moment for example I’m paying significantly more council tax due to a total mismanagement of finances by the council (which effectively went bust) and yet not even having bins collected
Why do you and others keep straw manning the left position as wanting to let everyone immigrate into the country unchecked?One thing about the Scandinavian countries is that they have comparatively more draconian immigration policies than we do. We wouldn’t describe Scandinavia as multicultural either.
Sweden has ‘remigration’ policies and Denmark has anti-ghetto laws that have been described as ‘far right’ on this thread months ago.
It goes back to what ‘New Right’ economists of the 1970/80s were saying that you can’t have free immigration and a welfare state. The population grew by 6 million people between 2010-2022 and is expected to grow another 6.2m by 2036, is it a surprise public services and housing provision suffer as the state is unable to keep up.
These are uncomfortable truths that many on the left just aren’t ready to accept.
One thing about the Scandinavian countries is that they have comparatively more draconian immigration policies than we do.
The are limitations to government spending of course, but they are nothing to do with tax collection which you continuously imply.
Why do you and others keep straw manning the left position as wanting to let everyone immigrate into the country unchecked?
Isn't this a relatively recent thing, and largely a result of a tilt to the right politically over the last few years? I'm pretty sure their model of higher taxes to fund services is much more long-standing than that. Not sure your inference that their funding model for services is only possible because of more restrictive immigration holds up.
You're assigning positions to people that they don't hold.It’s not limited to the political left as a whole. There’s elements of the neoliberal right who champion mass immigration for cheap labour and ‘economic growth’.
I mentioned ‘the left’ specifically is because they tend to be much more comfortable shouting public services are systematically underfunded. Many on the left (for this purpose, let’s include One Nation Tories) haven’t come to terms that mass migration and a comprehensive welfare state aren’t particularly compatible.
You’re correct. However, the data coming out of Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and UK is that mass immigration (especially low income, low skilled) essentially hollows out a country’s welfare state. This is part of the reason why the Netherlands Denmark and Sweden in particular have swung to the right on this issue.
The OBR came out and outlined the costs of low income migration. On housing, currently 40% of social housing occupants in London were born out of the UK.
You're assigning positions to people that they don't hold.
Just because there could be improvements made in the efficiency of delivery of public services doesn't mean they aren't also chronically underfunded. They are.It’s not limited to the political left as a whole. There’s elements of the neoliberal right who champion mass immigration for cheap labour and ‘economic growth’.
I mentioned ‘the left’ specifically is because they tend to be much more comfortable shouting public services are systematically underfunded. Many on the left (for this purpose, let’s include One Nation Tories) haven’t come to terms that mass migration and a comprehensive welfare state aren’t particularly compatible.
You’re correct. However, the data coming out of Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and UK is that mass immigration (especially low income, low skilled) essentially hollows out a country’s welfare state. This is part of the reason why the Netherlands Denmark and Sweden in particular have swung to the right on this issue.
The OBR came out and outlined the costs of low income migration. On housing, currently 40% of social housing occupants in London were born out of the UK.
You're assigning positions to people that they don't hold.
Just because there could be improvements made in the efficiency of delivery of public services doesn't mean they aren't also chronically underfunded. They are.
Just as many on the right think we're overtaxed, I would say that given the examples of other countries in comparison to QoL we are massively undertaxing, especially the wealthy.
Just because there could be improvements made in the efficiency of delivery of public services doesn't mean they aren't also chronically underfunded. They are.
Just as many on the right think we're overtaxed, I would say that given the examples of other countries in comparison to QoL we are massively undertaxing, especially the wealthy.
I have never argued against sensible limits on immigration. A country that relies too heavily on foreign labour is not economically secure for a raft of reasons.In that case, I apologise.
Why did you choose Scandinavia as your example? Are you willing to hold positions that some would consider ‘far right’ on immigration in order to ‘save’ the welfare state?
Sweden removed wealth taxes and inheritance tax didn't they?
This is an article that supports progressive policy positions and highlights Sweden lurching to the right leading to worse outcomes.
You’re correct. However, the data coming out of Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and UK is that mass immigration (especially low income, low skilled) essentially hollows out a country’s welfare state.
Under taxed you say, this is highest UK tax burden in my life.Just because there could be improvements made in the efficiency of delivery of public services doesn't mean they aren't also chronically underfunded. They are.
Just as many on the right think we're overtaxed, I would say that given the examples of other countries in comparison to QoL we are massively undertaxing, especially the wealthy.
This is an article that supports progressive policy positions and highlights Sweden lurching to the right leading to worse outcomes.
Theres not a legal minimum wage, but theres pretty good relationships between employment organisations and unions where they establish a non descript minimum wage.But Sweden have stopped wealth taxation and generally reduced the burden on taxing the wealthy as its acknowledged in has to encourage wealthy people to remain to boost the economy.
Most of Scandinavia does not have a minimum wage either - something you frequently demand here is increased
Theres not a legal minimum wage, but theres pretty good relationships between employment organisations and unions where they establish a non descript minimum wage.
Minimum wages are not in place because the Nordic countries generally have high levels of union membership and collective bargaining to secure better pay. It became necessary in this country after unions were largely dismantled and membership greatly reduced in size.But Sweden have stopped wealth taxation and generally reduced the burden on taxing the wealthy as its acknowledged in has to encourage wealthy people to remain to boost the economy.
Most of Scandinavia does not have a minimum wage either - something you frequently demand here is increased
Minimum wages are not in place because the Nordic countries generally have high levels of union membership and collective bargaining to secure better pay. It became necessary in this country after unions were largely dismantled and membership greatly reduced in size.
Why do the Nordic countries consistently rank as the happiest in the world?Why is the rich to poor gap no better then than in any other major EU countries?
So just proves that as a country we're historically undertaxed.Under taxed you say, this is highest UK tax burden in my life.
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Why do the Nordic countries consistently rank as the happiest in the world?
Of course it affects their ability to provide services as there's more people to provide services for. Therefore you need to expand those services in order to do so. How do you do that? Money.I’m trying to be empathetic to the underfunded argument.
If your population grows by 12m in 26-or-so years as it is projected to do so between 2010-2036, do you think that could have an impact on a state’s capacity to actually provide essential public services?
You have highlighted Sweden both moving away from progressive policy while also experiencing more of the problems we have in this country. Do you not see the connection?Well clearly nothing to do with factors such as rich v poor, widening gap between the wealthy and not, unemployment levels (Sweden is 4th highest in the EU) or targeting taxing the wealthy.
So its clearly nothing to do with economic factors or political policy
So just proves that as a country we're historically undertaxed.
You have highlighted Sweden both moving away from progressive policy while also experiencing more of the problems we have in this country. Do you not see the connection?
What’s going wrong then ehOur income tax levels are the 8th highest in the world
What’s going wrong then eh
You've answered your own questions there. People aren't happy to pay more taxes when they aren't seeing any improvement in services and are seeing blank cheques being passed to mates of whoever the government of the time is.This is more the discussion we should be having. What are people happy to pay for good public services and then can the government deliver them ! Unfortunately the lack of confidence in the latter (all political parties) makes the former trickier
At the moment for example I’m paying significantly more council tax due to a total mismanagement of finances by the council (which effectively went bust) and yet not even having bins collected
Don't think that's true at all. Most people are open to a sensible discussion on immigration and I think the position of 'the left' when its referred to as a single entity is often misrepresented. I don't see many people on the left who want a free for all on immigration or who won't have a sensible discussion on immigration policy.These are uncomfortable truths that many on the left just aren’t ready to accept.
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