Do you want to discuss boring politics? (178 Viewers)

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 28, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
In no particular order

A flat VAT cut to 15% or lower
Commitment to a maximum classroom cap of 25
Legalisation of cannabis
A raise in the minimum wage to £10/h
Renationalisation of rail and utilities
If even vaguely possible, scrap HS2 and instead use the proceeds to improve road, rail and public transport across the 4 nations
Raising corporation tax back to pre 2010 levels

I could go on but happy to expand on the rationale for any of them.

So you’d cut VAT by 5% and balance that with increased borrowing and massive public expenditure commitments. You’d have to raise taxes as the corporation tax increases would not cover for this. The market conditions at the minute makes borrowing money more expensive which pushes spending up even further.

I’m no economist, but printing money and increasing minimum wage would likely exacerbate inflation further. Which would have wiped out the benefit of increasing the minimum wage. There’s also the unforeseen consequence of pushing companies to accelerate automation.

In summary, well meaning policies but would likely be a disaster.

Ian1779 · Jul 28, 2022

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Would it not be spineless to let your shadow cabinet colleagues strike when you explicitly ban them from doing so?

I’ve not got a problem with backbenchers playing activist politics, but the cabinet/shadow cabinet are supposed to be a credible government or government in waiting.

A cabinet is bound by collective responsibility and if you disagree with a policy, you resign or get sacked.

There is simply no need to draw that line in the sand to begin with. This idea of a ‘government in waiting’ is a nonsense…. it’s just an excuse because he’s a spineless clown.

Labour are failing to be on the side of people that need them right now.

skybluetony176 · Jul 28, 2022

PVA said:
People dying in corridors but hey Keith said something about strikes so I couldn't possibly vote Labour even if doing so might improve the NHS.

Imagine how bad it would have been if Boris hadn’t have gotten the big calls right

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 28, 2022

Mucca Mad Boys said:
So you’d cut VAT by 5% and balance that with increased borrowing and massive public expenditure commitments. You’d have to raise taxes as the corporation tax increases would not cover for this. The market conditions at the minute makes borrowing money more expensive which pushes spending up even further.

I’m no economist, but printing money and increasing minimum wage would likely exacerbate inflation further. Which would have wiped out the benefit of increasing the minimum wage. There’s also the unforeseen consequence of pushing companies to accelerate automation.

In summary, well meaning policies but would likely be a disaster.

Good try, my rightwardly drifting friend, but as I’ve already said that would not be my entire manifesto and there are of course plenty of other ways to raise money and cut costs.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 28, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
I agree that an international tax for multi nationals should be based around revenues generated in each country but for most normal businesses taxing revenue wouldn’t work. You’d end up with loads of businesses, especially in early stages, paying tax when they are loss making or barely making a profit. Id imagine this would stifle growth.

For example, under the 5% example a small business turning over 500k and breaking even would still pay 25k tax which could’ve paid for a new member of staff, materials or a new machine etc

It's a decent point that needs to be considered

The main thing I'm wanting is equivalence between people and business.

I guess you could say small businesses/start ups could have interest free payment deferrals for five years of something. That as well wouldn't be ideal as it would encourage unscrupulous people to set up businesses for short amount of times and the liquidate them to avoid paying.

I just feel that if you differentiate between the small and big business as to how to calculate the tax it's just going to end in deadlock.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jul 28, 2022

Grendel said:
The single currency meant its dominance was compounded

Tax on business raises Very little in the grand scheme at all. You really need to look at the big costs in public services future it and work how to address it

I'd say that's a big part of the problem.

David O'Day · Jul 28, 2022

PVA said:
Hopefully that's just a case of appealing to the headbangers and not something he'd actually implement.

trying to out tory each other

shmmeee · Jul 28, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
So why isn’t Sneer making these arguments himself and trying to lead the narrative?

Every time I get this mental picture (niche reference)

shmmeee · Jul 29, 2022

Mucca Mad Boys said:
So you’d cut VAT by 5% and balance that with increased borrowing and massive public expenditure commitments. You’d have to raise taxes as the corporation tax increases would not cover for this. The market conditions at the minute makes borrowing money more expensive which pushes spending up even further.

I’m no economist, but printing money and increasing minimum wage would likely exacerbate inflation further. Which would have wiped out the benefit of increasing the minimum wage. There’s also the unforeseen consequence of pushing companies to accelerate automation.

In summary, well meaning policies but would likely be a disaster.

Whats wrong with accelerating automation? We have a massive productivity problem and a labour shortage. Why do you think anti-immigration Japan loves tech so much?

Our current inflation is cost push not demand pull, it’s the impact of covid and war (and in our case Brexit) that’s caused it not a surplus of demand. And most research shows minimum wage rises have a negligible impact on inflation.

Long term we should be balancing tax take with day to day expenditure, but stuff like the climate crisis needs to be put on the credit card for a later date otherwise it’ll cost an order of magnitude more. I’d be more worried about the inflationary effects of spending into an economy suffering a labour shortage than of the debt cost. But generally the point of government is to smooth over the impacts of short term things like war and disease and keep the economy going until it comes out the other side.

clint van damme · Jul 29, 2022

Mucca Mad Boys said:
So you’d cut VAT by 5% and balance that with increased borrowing and massive public expenditure commitments. You’d have to raise taxes as the corporation tax increases would not cover for this. The market conditions at the minute makes borrowing money more expensive which pushes spending up even further.

I’m no economist, but printing money and increasing minimum wage would likely exacerbate inflation further. Which would have wiped out the benefit of increasing the minimum wage. There’s also the unforeseen consequence of pushing companies to accelerate automation.

In summary, well meaning policies but would likely be a disaster.

It might have escaped you attention but for a lot of working people the current situation is a disaster. Not so much for the e ecutives at Centrica!
It's time to stop this madness.

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 29, 2022

Ben Wallace backs Liz Truss. There's someone who waits to see who's going to win before jumping.

CCFCSteve · Jul 29, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Ben Wallace backs Liz Truss. There's someone who waits to see who's going to win before jumping.

I heard that earlier and thought/heard this would happen. That’s probably Sunak done unless something crazy happens (put that gun away NW !)

On a positive note Id like to think that as he’s worked closely with Truss maybe she’s not as shit as I thought ?!…. Grasping !!!

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 29, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
I heard that earlier and thought/heard this would happen. That’s probably Sunak done unless something crazy happens (put that gun away NW !)

On a positive note Id like to think that as he’s worked closely with Truss maybe she’s not as shit as I thought ?!…. Grasping !!!

Alternatively he can see she's going to win so is sucking up for a decent job alongside Dorries and Rees Mogg.

CCFCSteve · Jul 29, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Alternatively he can see she's going to win so is sucking up for a decent job alongside Dorries and Rees Mogg.

He wants to remain as defence sec. I can’t imagine Sunak wouldn’t support that as well

I think Truss is keener to increase defence spending though and heard he’s close to Johnson’s as well

Either way, disappointing from Wallace

AOM · Jul 29, 2022

Standard morning in Birmingham

shmmeee · Jul 29, 2022

Fucking hell. When you make Nadine Dorries look like the sane one you know you need help.

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 29, 2022

shmmeee said:
Fucking hell. When you make Nadine Dorries look like the sane one you know you need help.

First time I think she's looked almost human!

clint van damme · Jul 29, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
First time I think she's looked almost human!

Steady on!

AOM · Jul 29, 2022

shmmeee said:
Fucking hell. When you make Nadine Dorries look like the sane one you know you need help.

That was actually Boris kicking off

Grendel · Jul 29, 2022

Deleted member 9744 said:
I answered your question.

So why criticise Biden but never Trump?

can you imagine biden getting these laughs

Trump grunts and groans as he mocks athletes in extended transphobic rant

Former president claims he is stopped from making such ‘controversial statements’

www.independent.co.uk

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 29, 2022

Nadine Dorries, art and architecture critic

MSN

www.msn.com

Mucca Mad Boys · Jul 29, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Good try, my rightwardly drifting friend, but as I’ve already said that would not be my entire manifesto and there are of course plenty of other ways to raise money and cut costs.

I think Labour tried to cost the renationalisation of utilities and the railways and there were holes in it.

I voted for that program in 2019 but have since come to the conclusion that public ownership a) probably wouldn’t achieve its goals in delivering better customer experience and prices and b) would likely be a drain on the public purse.

The Soviet Union’s economy was ran by the government: the state owned industry, it planned all output and it set all the prices for every product. Ultimately, that experiment failed because the economy did not have the dynamism to compete with markets.

Marx famously said ‘history happens once as tragedy, second as farce’.

shmmeee · Jul 29, 2022

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I think Labour tried to cost the renationalisation of utilities and the railways and there were holes in it.

I voted for that program in 2019 but have since come to the conclusion that public ownership a) probably wouldn’t achieve its goals in delivering better customer experience and prices and b) would likely be a drain on the public purse.

The Soviet Union’s economy was ran by the government: the state owned industry, it planned all output and it set all the prices for every product. Ultimately, that experiment failed because the economy did not have the dynamism to compete with markets.

Marx famously said ‘history happens once as tragedy, second as farce’.

Going straight from nationalised energy to communist Russia is one hell of a leap.

The reason an industry is nationalised is because it’s either in the national interest to ensure minimum standards/coverage (police, health, education) or if it’s a natural monopoly (utilities,roads, rail). Transport and energy drive the economy, and no real competitive market exists, so by definition all privatisation does is funnel off funds to shareholders and marketing. That’s a price worth paying for innovation in less critical industries, but not when failure has such impacts on the rest of society.

clint van damme · Jul 29, 2022

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I think Labour tried to cost the renationalisation of utilities and the railways and there were holes in it.

I voted for that program in 2019 but have since come to the conclusion that public ownership a) probably wouldn’t achieve its goals in delivering better customer experience and prices and b) would likely be a drain on the public purse.

The Soviet Union’s economy was ran by the government: the state owned industry, it planned all output and it set all the prices for every product. Ultimately, that experiment failed because the economy did not have the dynamism to compete with markets.

Marx famously said ‘history happens once as tragedy, second as farce’.

With regard to the railways, franchises have consistently failed. The East Coast mainline had its best spell in recent times when it came back under government control.

Renationalising utilities wouldn't be easy as the French are finding out with EDF, however, they now plan to go ahead with bringing the last 16 percent into public ownership because they've realised this isn't all about the bottom line, its about energy security and being in charge of your own supplies.

As for your comments on the Soviet Union, what's that got to do with anything?
No ones talking about nationalising manufacturing or services.

clint van damme · Jul 29, 2022

shmmeee said:
Going straight from nationalised energy to communist Russia is one hell of a leap.

The reason an industry is nationalised is because it’s either in the national interest to ensure minimum standards/coverage (police, health, education) or if it’s a natural monopoly (utilities,roads, rail). Transport and energy drive the economy, and no real competitive market exists, so by definition all privatisation does is funnel off funds to shareholders and marketing. That’s a price worth paying for innovation in less critical industries, but not when failure has such impacts on the rest of society.

Said what I just said, but better!

clint van damme · Jul 29, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Nadine Dorries, art and architecture critic

MSN

www.msn.com

You can't even put a plaque up to a megalomaniac white supremacist these days without some snowflake trying to get it removed.

shmmeee · Jul 29, 2022

clint van damme said:
With regard to the railways, franchises have consistently failed. The East Coast mainline had its best spell in recent times when it came back under government control.

Renationalising utilities wouldn't be easy as the French are finding out with EDF, however, they now plan to go ahead with bringing the last 16 percent into public ownership because they've realised this isn't all about the bottom line, its about energy security and being in charge of your own supplies.

As for your comments on the Soviet Union, what's that got to do with anything?
No ones talking about nationalising manufacturing or services.

I don’t see why you need to nationalise energy, just invest a load in local community owned generation and storage and a few big wind and solar farms, just buy nuclear energy off them when needed.

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 29, 2022

The only reason railways were nationalised in the first place was that they were a disaster as private companies!

fernandopartridge · Jul 29, 2022

Mucca Mad Boys said:
I think Labour tried to cost the renationalisation of utilities and the railways and there were holes in it.

I voted for that program in 2019 but have since come to the conclusion that public ownership a) probably wouldn’t achieve its goals in delivering better customer experience and prices and b) would likely be a drain on the public purse.

The Soviet Union’s economy was ran by the government: the state owned industry, it planned all output and it set all the prices for every product. Ultimately, that experiment failed because the economy did not have the dynamism to compete with markets.

Marx famously said ‘history happens once as tragedy, second as farce’.

Lol what a ridiculous post: nationalised public services is not state socialism

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

shmmeee · Jul 30, 2022

'Labour must go from protest into power - then hand power to working people'

Writing exclusively for the Sunday Mirror, Labour Leader Keir Starmer says he supports the right to strike - and that his support went beyond "sentiment and a photo opp - I backed up my words with action"

www.mirror.co.uk

David O'Day · Jul 30, 2022

shmmeee said:
'Labour must go from protest into power - then hand power to working people'

Writing exclusively for the Sunday Mirror, Labour Leader Keir Starmer says he supports the right to strike - and that his support went beyond "sentiment and a photo opp - I backed up my words with action"

www.mirror.co.uk

but, but I was told he doesn't support workers rights

fatso · Jul 31, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Ben Wallace backs Liz Truss. There's someone who waits to see who's going to win before jumping.

No, there's someone who's been promised a lucrative job and career enhancement in exchange for an endorsement.

fernandopartridge · Aug 1, 2022

In this week's episode of "The grown-ups are in charge" Lisa Nandy visits CWU pickets

fernandopartridge · Aug 1, 2022

David O'Day said:
but, but I was told he doesn't support workers rights

What does he actually say there?

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 1, 2022

fernandopartridge said:
What does he actually say there?

That he supports the right to strike. Which until Liz Truss came along was I thought a no brainer.

Do you want to discuss boring politics? (178 Viewers)

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