Do you want to discuss boring politics? (21 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
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D
Deleted member 5849
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Personally, I notice little difference between CCC (Labour) and WCC (Tory). WCC are 'soft' Tory, but still... you'd not really know who was what!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I think there’s a niche in just piling in on the Labour Party and trying to suggest it isn’t just a personal popularity contest. But like I said, preferring this over substance is why I want to leave the country more as time goes on.
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Deleted member 5849
Guest
There's a paradox, which is when a party seems at its strongest, often creates the cracks for weakness. Take Labour - Blair swept all before him by appealing to middle England, but that started the alienation felt by traditional northern Labour heartlands. Fast forward to when Blair was a busted flush, and that alienation is embedded.
Now? Johnson swept aside elements of his party to ensure Brexit happened, and the Conservative members have also shifted pretty right. Now atm the Prime Minister can paper over that because he, relatively, isn't. But whenever he (and maybe the one after) go, then you have a situation that could potentially be as the Labour Party find themselves - a bunch of party members out of step with what's needed, who push the party overly right, making them unappealing to the masses.
So, there's a current wave, but that could very much fail.
Umunna and co. probably had the right idea, but managed it poorly. Really, a Liberal Party well-run would have space to pick up Southern England, while trad Labour focussed on the North, and they ruled in coalition to moderate one another. Our system doesn't really allow for that so, would the respective leaders be brave enought o pool resources to focus in that way...?
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Deleted member 4439
Guest
I'd vote for him with that creativity and symbolism - break free from the chains of Labour and have a seat on the swing of freedom, and where there is a void bring forth new swings.
Well, better being told that I'm part of the problem.
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
It is in the SNP's constitution to break up into its constituent parts once Independence is achieved. It is an amalgamation of many political parties.
AOM
Well-Known Member
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Deleted member 4439
Guest
Blair lost the working classes because he was so desperate to be seen as controlling public finances such that by 2005 when he and Brown first started to flash the cash public services were all too obviously in a state of disrepair. The pair then lurched into a spending spree that didn't look sensible either, and this was then compounded by their misfortune of being at the helm when the global economy crashed.
I'm not sure, however, that this bedded any alienation within voters, simply other than at that time looking for a perceived 'safe pair of hands' to run the economy.
If you genuinely think Jenrick is more right and proper than Bercow then that really does sum up the state of this country and explains why the Tories will be in power for the next however many years.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I'm not convinced I agree with all your reasoning tbh - compared to under the Tories, public services were in rude health! On a purely basic level, where I grew up got its bus service back(!)
I'd argue it was perception - in moving Labour to the centre ground and yes, even removing Clause 4, it wasn't necessarily the party of the working man, more a Tory-lite of sorts, coupled with having a smooth leader, who was presentable. All that, of course, is why he won so convincingly, and the vote could hold up in the North because of a lack of alternative and a general need for change. I'd actually argue Brown brought the party closer to the Northern vision but, as you say, he was there at a moment when a global crash and general political stagnation made for a change... but of course he and the Liberals could have still formed a working government in coalition, had they chosen to.
Then you have Ed Milliband who was too intellectual really (he's improved substantially since, think he'd be a great leader now!) and Corbyn obviously divides / divided opinion. Maybe Starmer isn't the right man to offer an authentic Northern voice, however... at which point you need to get those voices out there, alongside him. It's not just Starmer who's been pretty silent recently.
I'm glad we agree on Jenrick.
Bercow is a million times better as Speaker than the incumbent.
lifeskyblue
Well-Known Member
Labour are finished unless they can somehow bring the various interest groups in the party together. But after last night it looks as if the factions will further divide and attack each other. Even if they can genuinely become a ‘broad church’ it will be another couple of elections before they will realistically would be strong enough to form a government.
Either that or they they must hold their hands up and agree to split the Labour Party with MPs, party members etc joining wherever their heart leads them. That will give the Tories an even greater stranglehold on power for the foreseeable future.
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Either that or they they must hold their hands up and agree to split the Labour Party with MPs, party members etc joining wherever their heart leads them. That will give the Tories an even greater stranglehold on power for the foreseeable future.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
I went from a Labour member chasing Starmer as second preference to not putting an x in any of the 10 possible boxes for Labour yesterday.
Quite simply I'm not going to vote for a party with no clear vision on anything and a man that lied through his teeth to get the job, those 10 pledges were absolutely bullshit.
If the tories can form a broad coalition containing anti-abortionists, some small government big business people, some classical liberals and Mark fucking Francois then Labour should be able to do it based on the main difference being that they all want to invest in and improve the country but some to more extremes than others.
The party is an embarrassment right now and got what it deserved.
Quite simply I'm not going to vote for a party with no clear vision on anything and a man that lied through his teeth to get the job, those 10 pledges were absolutely bullshit.
If the tories can form a broad coalition containing anti-abortionists, some small government big business people, some classical liberals and Mark fucking Francois then Labour should be able to do it based on the main difference being that they all want to invest in and improve the country but some to more extremes than others.
The party is an embarrassment right now and got what it deserved.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The party has been an embarrassment for about 11 years.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
All this talk of "winning back the working class vote" too. The working class are those earning less than £25k who don't own a home and are having to sell their labour to survive. What people are referring to are people who used to be working class but are now retired with mortgages paid off and living pretty on their pensions. If that's who you're aiming for then fine but working class support for Labour under Corbyn was huge, it doesn't matter if those working people live in a city and have an education, they are still renters and workers. Jettisoning them isn't going to work at all.
BUILD.A.COALITION
BUILD.A.COALITION
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
Can't see that at all.
Whilst I don't disagree with some of what you said... lying is not really something that can be used as a stick to beat Starmer with given the PM's propensity for lying every time he opens his mouth.
If we don't like liars then Johnson would be nowhere near no10!
Agreed. It was very much middle class supporters for Corbyn and the working class went Tory, as we saw.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Labour and Starmer has got some really difficult decisions to make. For too long, it’s pandered to the view of its membership rather than the wider electoral base.
If Starmer wants to ‘rebuild the red wall’ he needs to start by apologising for attempting to have a 2nd Brexit referendum and stop field pro-Remain candidates in overwhelmingly pro-Leave constituencies.
Like in Germany, I think the Greens will eventually grow to be the next big centre-left political force in the next 10-25 years.
There’s a realignment in British politics happening and Labour’s existence as a major political force is at risk.
If Starmer wants to ‘rebuild the red wall’ he needs to start by apologising for attempting to have a 2nd Brexit referendum and stop field pro-Remain candidates in overwhelmingly pro-Leave constituencies.
Like in Germany, I think the Greens will eventually grow to be the next big centre-left political force in the next 10-25 years.
There’s a realignment in British politics happening and Labour’s existence as a major political force is at risk.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
What are you classifying as working class? To me it’s people who are working in more precarious jobs and for lower remuneration and have insecure housing situations. They tend to be under 45 and support labour massively.
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
I class myself as working class, come from parents who didn't own a property and had low paid jobs. Maybe as a home owner I don't fit into your criteria. A few years ago I was working night shifts stacking shelves to help myself be able to study and other personal circumstances. Many of the people in there fucking hated Corbyn. He was seen as unpatriotic, IRA sympathiser etc. He definitely cut through with the youth, singing his name at Glasto and all that stuff proved it. I would describe the working class support as polarised rather than huge.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
No idea if that is true or not but I did hear a polling expert make an interesting point this morning. He reckoned that a decent chunk of Corbyn voters were previously non-voters and their vote hasn't moved to another party, they've gone back to being non-voters.
Looking at Hartlepool as an example Conservative's got 15,529, Labour got 8,589. There was over 40K of the electorate who didn't bother to vote. Which task is easier, persuading under 7K of those to vote Labour or getting 3.5K Conservative voters to change to Labour? Hear a lot of talk of how to get people to change their vote but very little about engaging non-voters.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
Yeah polarised is probably fair. He was most likely the most popular and also the most unpopular in that demographic for decades.
I guess what I’m looking it is more ‘lower working class’. You can still be working class and own a home and have some investments but in the demographic that don’t have them, or a pension, his politics were very popular.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I'd argue much of the politics was popular, the man wasn't.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
There is a huge demographic of people that are not home owners and stuck renting with no prospect of escaping. When Labour came out with a policy of a huge affordable housing program in 2017 it will have resonated massively. That’s how I interpret Liquids point anyway.
Yes I'd say a lot of the working class loved his policies but hated the man. Which is fair enough.
samccov1987
Well-Known Member
Looking at the early results I don’t think any of it is much of a shock. Labour haven’t shook off the hangover of Brexit and Corbin plus there’s a vaccine bounce for the tories and in times of crisis people want to support the government.
The bigger problem long term for Labour is people in the traditional working class constituencies feel taken for granted. Labour expect to win these seats with no effort put in.
As mentioned on a number of posts there’s a lot of people who identify as working class who actually have mortgages, middle class wages and decent pensions. Those voters aren’t into ‘woke’ causes and just want a stable economy, decent schools and health services.
It’s not rocket science but labour is too conflicted within the party to communicate to your average man on the street.
The bigger problem long term for Labour is people in the traditional working class constituencies feel taken for granted. Labour expect to win these seats with no effort put in.
As mentioned on a number of posts there’s a lot of people who identify as working class who actually have mortgages, middle class wages and decent pensions. Those voters aren’t into ‘woke’ causes and just want a stable economy, decent schools and health services.
It’s not rocket science but labour is too conflicted within the party to communicate to your average man on the street.
I think a lot of dyed in the wool lifelong Labour voters would find it very difficult to go Labour -> Tory.
But going Labour -> BXP -> Tory was probably a bit more palatable for them.