Do you want to discuss boring politics? (130 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

I was one of the very first to call for a new referendum on Scotland's status after the UK voted to leave the EU.

It is a huge forced change to Scotland's Constitution against the wishes of the Scottish electorate.

It's true, and conversely if we're going state rather than bloc, is more consistent to go for it now than under the Blair years, when everyone just loved being part of a global multicultural world!

 

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[fatso]

I guess it’s because he’s a self hating Labour voter

I think he's just being honest and accepting there are issues that need to be faced up to.

It's pointless trying to win elections when your in turmoil Internally, and still living in denial.

There's definitely room for left leaning politics, but maybe not so left as momentum would wish.

imho.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I can see them shifting left if they panic though which might leave door open for an alternative Tory leader

Depends where they go though. The 2017 manifesto delivered by a more palatable voice could have played even better... although tbf Corbyn ran a good campaign that election. The issue last GE was partly the one the Tories had under Blair - Johnson and co were promising to spend so, what could Labour do? Promise to spend even more! It was a bit like how the Tories lurched uber-right under Hague and Howard, because they had to show themselves as the rightest party!

 

[PVA]

Tories would struggle unless they’re hiding someone behind the scenes (Sunak is the only one that seems to currently have wider appeal).

Sunak is too small to be PM. Genuinely. People wouldn't vote for someone who looks like this!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Times change BSB. People probably thought that when Thatcher and Blair were in charge. NWs right, take Johnson out the equation and Tories would struggle unless they’re hiding someone behind the scenes (Sunak is the only one that seems to currently have wider appeal). You’ve only got to be better than the alternative(s) on offer

If Tories shift right, Labour need to occupy centre... I can see them shifting left if they panic though which might leave door open for an alternative Tory leader

Who knows though

It will require Labour turning half of England, which just seems gone for good. While I hate the SNP, they would disappear in an independent Scotland and it would be run much closer to how I feel it should be. Aside from independence I agree with Scots on a great deal, in England I feel increasingly like an outsider.

 

[Ian1779]

My electoral advice for Labour, in the form of a Karen FB meme:

My advice on reflection is that we’ve got to get out and do stuff at council level while we have the opportunity. When you look at what Burnham is doing in Manchester, or some of the Labour councils in places like Hull or Preston they are doing tangible stuff. Whether it’s a regional bus scheme in Manchester, or their own version of socialism in Hull, it’s translating to actual positive change on the ground. This matters to people.

In my own area (which is staunchly Tory until they wiped the council) people were concerned about anti-social behaviour so they did something about it. Stuck up a skate park, basketball/football court and gave youngsters something they could do and it fixed theproblem. It was pro-active, not heavy handed and straight for the ASBO’s. It’s the little things that do have an impact.
I haven’t lived in Coventry for a long time, but does the Labour council there actually do stuff, or is a group of self-interest careerists looking after themselves?

Maybe it’s time to focus on what we do and where we can do some things - and stop talking about everyone else.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I was one of the very first to call for a new referendum on Scotland's status after the UK voted to leave the EU.

It is a huge forced change to Scotland's Constitution against the wishes of the Scottish electorate.

Some of them, not the million who voted for it and thus all went Tory in 2017.

 

[fatso]

Sunak is too small to be PM. Genuinely. People wouldn't vote for someone who looks like this!

I could never vote for someone that small
(I'm heightist)
And those legs are sooo skinny.
He's having to take massive strides to keep up with the other guy, who's hardly moving!!!

 

[Skybluefaz]

Sunak is too small to be PM. Genuinely. People wouldn't vote for someone who looks like this!

 

[shmmeee]

Just to break the tension a bit:

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I haven’t lived in Coventry for a long time, but does the Labour council there actually do stuff, or is a group of self-interest careerists looking after themselves?

Personally, I notice little difference between CCC (Labour) and WCC (Tory). WCC are 'soft' Tory, but still... you'd not really know who was what!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think he's just being honest and accepting there are issues that need to be faced up to.

It's pointless trying to win elections when your in turmoil Internally, and still living in denial.

There's definitely room for left leaning politics, but maybe not so left as momentum would wish.

imho.

I think there’s a niche in just piling in on the Labour Party and trying to suggest it isn’t just a personal popularity contest. But like I said, preferring this over substance is why I want to leave the country more as time goes on.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

I did enjoy this from Bercow though, deafening silence from that corrupt prick Jenrick at the end. This cheered me up a bit

Nearly chocked on my coffee - Bercow lecturing somebody on the need to defend the democratic legislature.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think there’s a niche in just piling in on the Labour Party and trying to suggest it isn’t just a personal popularity contest. But like I said, preferring this over substance is why I want to leave the country more as time goes on.

There's a paradox, which is when a party seems at its strongest, often creates the cracks for weakness. Take Labour - Blair swept all before him by appealing to middle England, but that started the alienation felt by traditional northern Labour heartlands. Fast forward to when Blair was a busted flush, and that alienation is embedded.

Now? Johnson swept aside elements of his party to ensure Brexit happened, and the Conservative members have also shifted pretty right. Now atm the Prime Minister can paper over that because he, relatively, isn't. But whenever he (and maybe the one after) go, then you have a situation that could potentially be as the Labour Party find themselves - a bunch of party members out of step with what's needed, who push the party overly right, making them unappealing to the masses.

So, there's a current wave, but that could very much fail.

Umunna and co. probably had the right idea, but managed it poorly. Really, a Liberal Party well-run would have space to pick up Southern England, while trad Labour focussed on the North, and they ruled in coalition to moderate one another. Our system doesn't really allow for that so, would the respective leaders be brave enought o pool resources to focus in that way...?

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Just to break the tension a bit:

I'd vote for him with that creativity and symbolism - break free from the chains of Labour and have a seat on the swing of freedom, and where there is a void bring forth new swings.

Well, better being told that I'm part of the problem.

 

[Philosoraptor]

It will require Labour turning half of England, which just seems gone for good. While I hate the SNP, they would disappear in an independent Scotland and it would be run much closer to how I feel it should be. Aside from independence I agree with Scots on a great deal, in England I feel increasingly like an outsider.

It is in the SNP's constitution to break up into its constituent parts once Independence is achieved. It is an amalgamation of many political parties.

 

[AOM]

Just to break the tension a bit:

Apparently Ben Sheaf is doing a similar video to sway Robins favour for next season

 

[Deleted member 4439]

There's a paradox, which is when a party seems at its strongest, often creates the cracks for weakness. Take Labour - Blair swept all before him by appealing to middle England, but that started the alienation felt by traditional northern Labour heartlands. Fast forward to when Blair was a busted flush, and that alienation is embedded.

Blair lost the working classes because he was so desperate to be seen as controlling public finances such that by 2005 when he and Brown first started to flash the cash public services were all too obviously in a state of disrepair. The pair then lurched into a spending spree that didn't look sensible either, and this was then compounded by their misfortune of being at the helm when the global economy crashed.

I'm not sure, however, that this bedded any alienation within voters, simply other than at that time looking for a perceived 'safe pair of hands' to run the economy.

 

[PVA]

Nearly chocked on my coffee - Bercow lecturing somebody on the need to defend the democratic legislature.

If you genuinely think Jenrick is more right and proper than Bercow then that really does sum up the state of this country and explains why the Tories will be in power for the next however many years.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Sunak is too small to be PM. Genuinely. People wouldn't vote for someone who looks like this!

You smallist.

In fact you surprise me - I'm sure there must be an intersectionalist wing of the Labour party that is the voice for small people.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

If you genuinely think Jenrick is more right and proper than Bercow then that really does sum up the state of this country and explains why the Tories will be in power for the next however many years.

You see, there you go again with your ad hominen arguments.

I mentioned nothing about that insipid, instantly unlikable man Jenrick.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Blair lost the working classes because he was so desperate to be seen as controlling public finances such that by 2005 when he and Brown first started to flash the cash public services were all too obviously in a state of disrepair. The pair then lurched into a spending spree that didn't look sensible either, and this was then compounded by their misfortune of being at the helm when the global economy crashed.

I'm not sure, however, that this bedded any alienation within voters, simply other than at that time looking for a perceived 'safe pair of hands' to run the economy.

I'm not convinced I agree with all your reasoning tbh - compared to under the Tories, public services were in rude health! On a purely basic level, where I grew up got its bus service back(!)

I'd argue it was perception - in moving Labour to the centre ground and yes, even removing Clause 4, it wasn't necessarily the party of the working man, more a Tory-lite of sorts, coupled with having a smooth leader, who was presentable. All that, of course, is why he won so convincingly, and the vote could hold up in the North because of a lack of alternative and a general need for change. I'd actually argue Brown brought the party closer to the Northern vision but, as you say, he was there at a moment when a global crash and general political stagnation made for a change... but of course he and the Liberals could have still formed a working government in coalition, had they chosen to.

Then you have Ed Milliband who was too intellectual really (he's improved substantially since, think he'd be a great leader now!) and Corbyn obviously divides / divided opinion. Maybe Starmer isn't the right man to offer an authentic Northern voice, however... at which point you need to get those voices out there, alongside him. It's not just Starmer who's been pretty silent recently.

 

[PVA]

You see, there you go again with your ad hominen arguments.

I mentioned nothing about that insipid, instantly unlikable man Jenrick.

I'm glad we agree on Jenrick.

Bercow is a million times better as Speaker than the incumbent.

 

[lifeskyblue]

Labour are finished unless they can somehow bring the various interest groups in the party together. But after last night it looks as if the factions will further divide and attack each other. Even if they can genuinely become a ‘broad church’ it will be another couple of elections before they will realistically would be strong enough to form a government.
Either that or they they must hold their hands up and agree to split the Labour Party with MPs, party members etc joining wherever their heart leads them. That will give the Tories an even greater stranglehold on power for the foreseeable future.


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[PVA]

Poor old Frank is going to be very disappointed.

 

[shmmeee]

Good thread:

 

[Liquid Gold]

I went from a Labour member chasing Starmer as second preference to not putting an x in any of the 10 possible boxes for Labour yesterday.

Quite simply I'm not going to vote for a party with no clear vision on anything and a man that lied through his teeth to get the job, those 10 pledges were absolutely bullshit.

If the tories can form a broad coalition containing anti-abortionists, some small government big business people, some classical liberals and Mark fucking Francois then Labour should be able to do it based on the main difference being that they all want to invest in and improve the country but some to more extremes than others.

The party is an embarrassment right now and got what it deserved.

 

[shmmeee]

I went from a Labour member chasing Starmer as second preference to not putting an x in any of the 10 possible boxes for Labour yesterday.

Quite simply I'm not going to vote for a party with no clear vision on anything and a man that lied through his teeth to get the job, those 10 pledges were absolutely bullshit.

If the tories can form a broad coalition containing anti-abortionists, some small government big business people, some classical liberals and Mark fucking Francois then Labour should be able to do it based on the main difference being that they all want to invest in and improve the country but some to more extremes than others.

The party is an embarrassment right now and got what it deserved.

The party has been an embarrassment for about 11 years.

 

[Liquid Gold]

All this talk of "winning back the working class vote" too. The working class are those earning less than £25k who don't own a home and are having to sell their labour to survive. What people are referring to are people who used to be working class but are now retired with mortgages paid off and living pretty on their pensions. If that's who you're aiming for then fine but working class support for Labour under Corbyn was huge, it doesn't matter if those working people live in a city and have an education, they are still renters and workers. Jettisoning them isn't going to work at all.

BUILD.A.COALITION

 

[Skybluefaz]

working class support for Labour under Corbyn was huge

Can't see that at all.

 

[PVA]

a man that lied through his teeth to get the job, those 10 pledges were absolutely bullshit.

Whilst I don't disagree with some of what you said... lying is not really something that can be used as a stick to beat Starmer with given the PM's propensity for lying every time he opens his mouth.

If we don't like liars then Johnson would be nowhere near no10!

 

[PVA]

Can't see that at all.

Agreed. It was very much middle class supporters for Corbyn and the working class went Tory, as we saw.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Labour and Starmer has got some really difficult decisions to make. For too long, it’s pandered to the view of its membership rather than the wider electoral base.

If Starmer wants to ‘rebuild the red wall’ he needs to start by apologising for attempting to have a 2nd Brexit referendum and stop field pro-Remain candidates in overwhelmingly pro-Leave constituencies.

Like in Germany, I think the Greens will eventually grow to be the next big centre-left political force in the next 10-25 years.

There’s a realignment in British politics happening and Labour’s existence as a major political force is at risk.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Can't see that at all.

What are you classifying as working class? To me it’s people who are working in more precarious jobs and for lower remuneration and have insecure housing situations. They tend to be under 45 and support labour massively.

 

[Skybluefaz]

What are you classifying as working class? To me it’s people who are working in more precarious jobs and for lower remuneration and have insecure housing situations. They tend to be under 45 and support labour massively.

I class myself as working class, come from parents who didn't own a property and had low paid jobs. Maybe as a home owner I don't fit into your criteria. A few years ago I was working night shifts stacking shelves to help myself be able to study and other personal circumstances. Many of the people in there fucking hated Corbyn. He was seen as unpatriotic, IRA sympathiser etc. He definitely cut through with the youth, singing his name at Glasto and all that stuff proved it. I would describe the working class support as polarised rather than huge.