Do you want to discuss boring politics? (42 Viewers)

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fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
Yeah, but as I say, from memory Brown was going to deliver significant cuts as well post 2010. It was a long time ago so I might be wrong but I’d imagine a decent proportion of that growth was driven by the amount of public sector spending at the time which Brown knew he couldn’t maintain
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It was Alastair Darling as COE but yes he had promised austerity as well, albeit delivered in a different way from Gidiot's sledgehammer to all departmental budgets whether capital or revenue.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
Yeah, but as I say, from memory Brown was going to deliver significant cuts as well post 2010. It was a long time ago so I might be wrong but I’d imagine a decent proportion of that growth was driven by the amount of public sector spending at the time which Brown knew he couldn’t maintain
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It’s what’s needed when the economy is on its arse though. Can’t cut your way out of recession.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Philosorapter said:
And here is where the problem is for Labour.

Mostly, the same loons that drove the economy to the brink of disaster are still Labour MPs, councillors or people in Labour inner workings that have the same Thatcher ideology as before.

Until a complete rechanging of the guard, then Labour is going to go nowhere.

It is not the ethics of what Labour was built around. It is the people who are playing the political game within it.

Basically, they are destroying the party from the inside on a bizarre search for power by being a little bit less shitty than the Tories.
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Out of interest, can you point to a Labour government that meets your ideals?
 
rob9872

rob9872

Well-Known Member
PVA said:
Well you've been asked several times what makes him one of the worst PMs of all time and still no response so I assumed it was something daft like that.

Inept chancellor and car crash of a PM?! 🤣

Please elaborate...
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Several times is a stretch, I apologise for not spending all day on here, I’d only posted it yesterday morning and it’s a busy time of the year for me. Anyhow …

I had already given you dithering as a reason, in fact many of his own cabinet wanted him out as I recall due to him being so indecisive. He had no real vision, so little that he couldn’t even shape his own party or give them anything tangible to get behind. Conversely to that, those he did directly manage (low end staff in no10) I think labelled his leadership style as little better than a schoolyard bully. He still wanted to continue with ID cards and having been already tainted by association to His Tonyness (who was such a snake he didn’t even stand aside as they’d agreed in their pact many years previous), he continued to stand by the war in Iraq. He never won an election either - without a mandate I think you call it now it’s on the other foot and you don’t like the result. Strangely I guess you don’t want him blamed for his part in the worldwide recession either and yet now we’re facing another it’s all the fault of those nasty Tories, who would’ve thought that you’d be so results orientated when it suits?! You flippantly mentioned the gold sale, however selling it right at the bottom certainly takes a special skill, so whilst I pointed out it was during his tenure as chancellor, I guess you’re the only person in the country who sees it as an endorsement!

I’m sorry my memory fails me as it was a long while back and I’m sure there were other errors (dropped his guard on record for that woman in the street but that was quite funny), but all I really have him down as rightly or wrongly was weak and poor. I only pointed out that despite some poor alternatives, if he was perceived as the best we’ve had (which Shmmeee alluded to) then things are pretty desperate, but genuinely couldn’t care whether you agree. You can spend the next 100 posts pulling this one apart piece by piece to explain why I’m wrong and make you feel superior, although I won’t be reading as I only pop on this thread sporadically rather than daily attention seeking, so knock yourself out and have some fun!
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
It’s what’s needed when the economy is on its arse though. Can’t cut your way out of recession.
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It was what was needed initially, the world was on its arse, just saying Brown knew this couldn’t be maintained so significant cuts were coming whoever got into power.

People forget or choose to ignore this. I’ve always thought Brown took too much flak for impact of financial crisis and Tories took too much flak for initial cuts post 2010*. People can and will always present both in a way that suits their arguments and would have some fair points

*ireland cut public sector pay by 10-15%…now that’s brutal !
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
rob9872 said:
Several times is a stretch, I apologise for not spending all day on here, I’d only posted it yesterday morning and it’s a busy time of the year for me. Anyhow …

I had already given you dithering as a reason, in fact many of his own cabinet wanted him out as I recall due to him being so indecisive. He had no real vision, so little that he couldn’t even shape his own party or give them anything tangible to get behind. Conversely to that, those he did directly manage (low end staff in no10) I think labelled his leadership style as little better than a schoolyard bully. He still wanted to continue with ID cards and having been already tainted by association to His Tonyness (who was such a snake he didn’t even stand aside as they’d agreed in their pact many years previous), he continued to stand by the war in Iraq. He never won an election either - without a mandate I think you call it now it’s on the other foot and you don’t like the result. Strangely I guess you don’t want him blamed for his part in the worldwide recession either and yet now we’re facing another it’s all the fault of those nasty Tories, who would’ve thought that you’d be so results orientated when it suits?! You flippantly mentioned the gold sale, however selling it right at the bottom certainly takes a special skill, so whilst I pointed out it was during his tenure as chancellor, I guess you’re the only person in the country who sees it as an endorsement!

I’m sorry my memory fails me as it was a long while back and I’m sure there were other errors (dropped his guard on record for that woman in the street but that was quite funny), but all I really have him down as rightly or wrongly was weak and poor. I only pointed out that despite some poor alternatives, if he was perceived as the best we’ve had (which Shmmeee alluded to) then things are pretty desperate, but genuinely couldn’t care whether you agree. You can spend the next 100 posts pulling this one apart piece by piece to explain why I’m wrong and make you feel superior, although I won’t be reading as I only pop on this thread sporadically rather than daily attention seeking, so knock yourself out and have some fun!
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Just to pick up, again he pulled us out of Iraq. And as lack of ID cards seem to be the main reason we attract so much illegal immigration I’d have thought you’d be all for them.

No direction is a bit of a strange claim for a man who in three years for the first ever climate change act passed and lead the world on that, debt relief for third world countries, and financial regulation post crash.

But let’s look at his competition:

Sunak - Done nothing but be mired in scandals around him. Couldn’t even win his own internal election.

Truss - Crashed the economy in record time

Johnson - Signed a Brexit deal everyone on all sides hates, mired in scandal

May - Nearly fucked the Tories in their easiest ever election (fine by me), actually the best on this list so far as couldn’t do anything else.

Cameron - Fucked the recovery when he came in, then fucked it some more with Brexit and did a runner. Ran on a centre right platform which he immediately jettisoned for the loons at the first opportunity.

Blair - Iraq, PFI, privatisation, created anti-immigrant sentiment, but at least cleaned up the economic and social mess left by the previous lot.

Major - More scandal, Black Wednesday

Thatcher - created the housing crisis, destroyed entire working class communities, handed public assets to her mates to the tune of billions, brought public services to their knees, did the Big Bang which actually contributed to the GFC, I could go on.


Saying Brown was the best is frankly the only sensible answer. And it says more about the leaders of the last 40 odd years than anything else.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
It was what was needed initially, the world was on its arse, just saying Brown knew this couldn’t be maintained so significant cuts were coming whoever got into power.

People forget or choose to ignore this. I’ve always thought Brown took too much flak for impact of financial crisis and Tories took too much flak for initial cuts post 2010*. People can and will always present both in a way that suits their arguments and would have some fair points

*ireland cut public sector pay by 10-15%…now that’s brutal !
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Totally, but he was a serious economic mind and the last serious politician. And any cuts would have been handled far better than the indiscriminate austerity which likely ended up costing more than it saved. We’re still living with some decisions now around social care and policing and education cuts as they have very long tails.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Totally, but he was a serious economic mind and the last serious politician. And any cuts would have been handled far better than the indiscriminate austerity which likely ended up costing more than it saved. We’re still living with some decisions now around social care and policing and education cuts as they have very long tails.
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Agreed. I think/guessing he would’ve been as tough with cuts initially but would’ve then slowed/stopped them and invested more, especially on capital projects, as soon as things had settled globally. We’ll never know for sure though.
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
rob9872 said:
Several times is a stretch, I apologise for not spending all day on here, I’d only posted it yesterday morning and it’s a busy time of the year for me. Anyhow …

I had already given you dithering as a reason, in fact many of his own cabinet wanted him out as I recall due to him being so indecisive. He had no real vision, so little that he couldn’t even shape his own party or give them anything tangible to get behind. Conversely to that, those he did directly manage (low end staff in no10) I think labelled his leadership style as little better than a schoolyard bully. He still wanted to continue with ID cards and having been already tainted by association to His Tonyness (who was such a snake he didn’t even stand aside as they’d agreed in their pact many years previous), he continued to stand by the war in Iraq. He never won an election either - without a mandate I think you call it now it’s on the other foot and you don’t like the result. Strangely I guess you don’t want him blamed for his part in the worldwide recession either and yet now we’re facing another it’s all the fault of those nasty Tories, who would’ve thought that you’d be so results orientated when it suits?! You flippantly mentioned the gold sale, however selling it right at the bottom certainly takes a special skill, so whilst I pointed out it was during his tenure as chancellor, I guess you’re the only person in the country who sees it as an endorsement!

I’m sorry my memory fails me as it was a long while back and I’m sure there were other errors (dropped his guard on record for that woman in the street but that was quite funny), but all I really have him down as rightly or wrongly was weak and poor. I only pointed out that despite some poor alternatives, if he was perceived as the best we’ve had (which Shmmeee alluded to) then things are pretty desperate, but genuinely couldn’t care whether you agree. You can spend the next 100 posts pulling this one apart piece by piece to explain why I’m wrong and make you feel superior, although I won’t be reading as I only pop on this thread sporadically rather than daily attention seeking, so knock yourself out and have some fun!
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On the point of the worldwide recession excuse being used then and now there's a big difference.
Yes, there are currently global factors at play but we're the only G7 country whose economy hasn't returned to its prepandemic levels and the predictions for next year are very poor compared to our neighbours



So we're doing particularly shit.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
rob9872 said:
Several times is a stretch, I apologise for not spending all day on here, I’d only posted it yesterday morning and it’s a busy time of the year for me. Anyhow …

I had already given you dithering as a reason, in fact many of his own cabinet wanted him out as I recall due to him being so indecisive. He had no real vision, so little that he couldn’t even shape his own party or give them anything tangible to get behind. Conversely to that, those he did directly manage (low end staff in no10) I think labelled his leadership style as little better than a schoolyard bully. He still wanted to continue with ID cards and having been already tainted by association to His Tonyness (who was such a snake he didn’t even stand aside as they’d agreed in their pact many years previous), he continued to stand by the war in Iraq. He never won an election either - without a mandate I think you call it now it’s on the other foot and you don’t like the result. Strangely I guess you don’t want him blamed for his part in the worldwide recession either and yet now we’re facing another it’s all the fault of those nasty Tories, who would’ve thought that you’d be so results orientated when it suits?! You flippantly mentioned the gold sale, however selling it right at the bottom certainly takes a special skill, so whilst I pointed out it was during his tenure as chancellor, I guess you’re the only person in the country who sees it as an endorsement!

I’m sorry my memory fails me as it was a long while back and I’m sure there were other errors (dropped his guard on record for that woman in the street but that was quite funny), but all I really have him down as rightly or wrongly was weak and poor. I only pointed out that despite some poor alternatives, if he was perceived as the best we’ve had (which Shmmeee alluded to) then things are pretty desperate, but genuinely couldn’t care whether you agree. You can spend the next 100 posts pulling this one apart piece by piece to explain why I’m wrong and make you feel superior, although I won’t be reading as I only pop on this thread sporadically rather than daily attention seeking, so knock yourself out and have some fun!
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Some of the things you point out are fair enough.

But the fact you can say he's so rubbish and point out his apparently numerous weaknesses yet continually vote Tory with a straight face is frankly fucking nuts!
 
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skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Skybluefaz said:
They are going for this 'World's next silicon Valley' thing aren't they? Not sure that politically plays out with people as well as they think it does.
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It also took over a century to build Silicon Valley into what it is today. Are they really saying that it’s going to take decades and decades and decades to feel the benefits of brexit. There was also a number of reasons Silicon Valley happened and why it took so long. It was down to education/universities in the area, military needs during WW2, no shortage of capital investment etc. We have an underfunded education system, underfunded military and have made ourselves unattractive to investment. It’s a buzz word because Silicon Valley as a stand alone country would be one of the wealthiest in the world with one of the highest GDP’s in the world. It’s beyond a pipe dream. Also why did we have to leave the EU to do it? Also if we were europes Silicon Valley it would only actually make EU membership more logical, given that would obviously be our biggest market.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
The man is absolutely clueless and a liar to boot. He knows damn well the choices he’s making but it’s more Johnsonian cakeism.
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
How utterly depressing the next election is going to be
548df259b3070aab2a8a4f04611c728f.jpg
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
This utter drip saying that the UK government can't afford to pay money into the UK economy because it is unaffordable



Before Herts and the other fannies start, there is no point going on about what the Tories are doing as Labour is so far ahead in the polls it is time to look forward surely. The signs are not good.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
This utter drip saying that the UK government can't afford to pay money into the UK economy because it is unaffordable



Before Herts and the other fannies start, there is no point going on about what the Tories are doing as Labour is so far ahead in the polls it is time to look forward surely. The signs are not good.
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That’s rather cynically clipped there.

 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Teachers' strike ballot's in some danger of failing to meet the 50% turnout threshold. Would be the only profession to do so out of those conducting ballots.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge said:
I mean that bit sounds fine but it really is a dead end street to start talking about affordability in that way
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It was just a dig at Tory economic record. I’ve said before you ain’t gonna convert the British public to MMT on your own. Current Tory fiscal rules are looser than McDonnells, even he understood you’ve got to play the game on economics.
 
Philosoraptor

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Up there with Corbyns homeopathy support and the Greens anti nuclear for making me doubt the sanity of the people proposing it. Just on no level is this a sane policy.
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I'm all for widening the canal and making Coventry canal basin the home of nuclear missiles in the UK. Just think of the job opportunities.
 
fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
It was just a dig at Tory economic record. I’ve said before you ain’t gonna convert the British public to MMT on your own. Current Tory fiscal rules are looser than McDonnells, even he understood you’ve got to play the game on economics.
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In 2020 the power of the state to pay for anything it wanted to was demonstrated perfectly, let's use that as a starting point. The current discourse is an insult to people imo.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Up there with Corbyns homeopathy support and the Greens anti nuclear for making me doubt the sanity of the people proposing it. Just on no level is this a sane policy.
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Wait. This is from a February interview where the shadow justice secretary said he’d “absolutely look at it”. That’s pretty far from policy and doesn’t seem to have been mentioned in the 9 months since.
 
Philosoraptor

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
Nuclear power plant in the next available green space to the council house. Lovely.
 
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