Do you want to discuss boring politics? (205 Viewers)

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 8, 2024

CCFCSteve said:
you could flip it round though and say when push comes to shove most Labour supporters currently not that happy with starmer, will still vote Labour. Both parties have entrenched support that won’t budge whatever is on offer from their own/the other side, which I’ve always found a bit strange. It’s why the middle ground needs to be won in order to win the election

Of course there will be Labour supporters who will vote Labour regardless, and certainly a large number who err towards Labour who will on this occasion because the Tories have made such a state of it, even though they might not be impressed with Starmer at all. That's the main reason why I think Starmer will get away with this Tory-lite push - he doesn't fear losing as many voters as he otherwise might because people are fed up of the Tories.

But I think it's far truer of the conservative side of politics. Left wing voters tend to be quite ideological and get upset when a party doesn't follow their stance on a particular issue and are thus more likely to switch vote, hence why there are more credible left wing parties at an election - Green, SNP, Plaid and to an extent the LD. On the right, it's a fringe far-right lot for the headbangers and the Tories. Conservatives by nature don't like change, even fear it, and that goes as far as voting intentions. Even if they don't like the current Tory govt they're even more frightened of a Labour one.

fernandopartridge · Feb 8, 2024

It's just economic stupidity

It's as if the government cannot have any positive effect on the economy. It's a ludicrous position really, "we can't spend (money into the real economy) until the economy improves". It seems like Reeves is relying on personal credit and PFI MK2/3 to drive the economy, as if all of that hadn't caused enough damage the last time.

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Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 8, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
It's just economic stupidity

It's as if the government cannot have any positive effect on the economy. It's a ludicrous position really, "we can't spend (money into the real economy) until the economy improves". It seems like Reeves is relying on personal credit and PFI MK2/3 to drive the economy, as if all of that hadn't caused enough damage the last time.

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It's actually a damaging stance, the idea that we can only spend money on the economy and services if the economy is doing well.

If the economy is doing badly, that is EXACTLY when government needs to be spending money to help those affected and to stimulate the economy with infrastructure projects. If you're going to try and save a few bob do it when the economy's doing well and unemploymnt is low.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 8, 2024

CCFCSteve said:
you could flip it round though and say when push comes to shove most Labour supporters currently not that happy with starmer, will still vote Labour. Both parties have entrenched support that won’t budge whatever is on offer from their own/the other side, which I’ve always found a bit strange. It’s why the middle ground needs to be won in order to win the election

The problem being that the middle ground just seems to move right year on year. Just by judging what is called ‘hard left’ compared to what is called ‘far right’.

JAM See · Feb 8, 2024

Grendel said:
Oh I can read. It’s going to dropped in the manifesto - it’s off the table as a commitment

As others have said you through every debate have a binary goodie and baddie mantra. So red is good and blue is bad. If Starmer said the world was flat you’d ban round the world cruises as it had to be true.

Most left leaning people on here despise Starmer and Reeves who really are now Major and Lamont reincarnated. Schmmee has discovered the wonders of capitalism now and wants a Tory Lite government. I would not take much stall from what he says.

I count myself as left leaning and I definitely don't despise Starmer.

You're talking bollocks.

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 8, 2024

PVA said:
That is absolutely disgusting.

They have since apologised, but they should be forced to resign.

Warwickshire councillors apologise for special needs comments

The council is investigating complaints about the remarks that it says "caused significant offence".

www.bbc.co.uk

So ignorant isn’t it - what to they do before they pipe up with absolute nonsense

Deleted member 9744 · Feb 8, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
It's just economic stupidity

It's as if the government cannot have any positive effect on the economy. It's a ludicrous position really, "we can't spend (money into the real economy) until the economy improves". It seems like Reeves is relying on personal credit and PFI MK2/3 to drive the economy, as if all of that hadn't caused enough damage the last time.

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It is economic stupidity for sure but what is more concerning about it is the impact of failing to address the impact of climate change. That will have more impact on our lives.

Deleted member 9744 · Feb 8, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The problem being that the middle ground just seems to move right year on year. Just by judging what is called ‘hard left’ compared to what is called ‘far right’.

Totally true. The current Government's policies are effectively those of the National Front in the 1980s.

Deleted member 9744 · Feb 8, 2024

JAM See said:
I count myself as left leaning and I definitely don't despise Starmer.

You're talking bollocks.

I find him disappointing but I don't despise him like I do the Tories and getting rid of them has to be the priority. Their incompetence and selfish ideology has destroyed our public services and consequently peoples' lives. They should be ashamed of what they have done but they don't care.

shmmeee · Feb 8, 2024

CCFCSteve said:
you could flip it round though and say when push comes to shove most Labour supporters currently not that happy with starmer, will still vote Labour. Both parties have entrenched support that won’t budge whatever is on offer from their own/the other side, which I’ve always found a bit strange. It’s why the middle ground needs to be won in order to win the election

“What is on offer” is mostly an irrelevance TBH. You either think the country needs more socialism or more capitalism generally, I’ve never understood people who flip flop TBH. Even the worst Labour govt is better than the best Tory one for me because fundamentally Labour are a party of the working man and Tories of established power. I might want them to go a bit faster or slower but I never want them to be Tories.

fernandopartridge · Feb 8, 2024

shmmeee said:
“What is on offer” is mostly an irrelevance TBH. You either think the country needs more socialism or more capitalism generally, I’ve never understood people who flip flop TBH. Even the worst Labour govt is better than the best Tory one for me because fundamentally Labour are a party of the working man and Tories of established power. I might want them to go a bit faster or slower but I never want them to be Tories.

Labour is, on the face of it, offering no socialism whatsoever and you are entirely depending on brand here, I know that you know this based on how your argument for voting for them has evolved over the past few months.

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shmmeee · Feb 8, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Labour is, on the face of it, offering no socialism whatsoever and you are entirely depending on brand here, I know that you know this based on how your argument for voting for them has evolved over the past few months.

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My argument has always been Labour will be more left wing than the Tories and those are your choices. Have I got increasingly frustrated with the election campaign? Obviously. Would that ever mean I vote Tory or do so by other means like abstention? Fuck no. That’s dumb as hell.

PVA · Feb 8, 2024

shmmeee said:
My argument has always been Labour will be more left wing than the Tories and those are your choices. Have I got increasingly frustrated with the election campaign? Obviously. Would that ever mean I vote Tory or do so by other means like abstention? Fuck no. That’s dumb as hell.

Amen.

fernandopartridge · Feb 8, 2024

PVA said:
Amen.

Amen is very appropriate here actually, it's nothing more than a belief in fantasy.

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PVA · Feb 8, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Amen is very appropriate here actually, it's nothing more than a belief in fantasy.

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How so?

As shmmeee says, Labour will always be more left wing than the Tories.

How much further left will depend on the leadership at the time. But it will always be more left. So they will always be the better option, even if they're not quite how we'd like them to be.

And I'd argue that your beliefs are more rooted in fantasy, given recent election results.

fernandopartridge · Feb 8, 2024

PVA said:
How so?

As shmmeee says, Labour will always be more left wing than the Tories.

How much further left will depend on the leadership at the time. But it will always be more left. So they will always be the better option, even if they're not quite how we'd like them to be.

And I'd argue that your beliefs are more rooted in fantasy, given recent election results.

Ok, Tories are practically far right so being a bit to their left is a terrific position to be eh?

These Labour politicians are the ones who hark back to great things Labour governments did, you wouldn't have heard Nye Bevan prattling on about national credit cards (or the 40s equivalent) or tough choices. These were people who cared about the fate of their class. Starmer, Reeves, Streeting care only about their own very narrow class of careerist politicians looking for future personal pay days.

I'm quite content to have beliefs rooted in fantasy rather than vote for any of these dickheads.

That said, unlike you I'm not some silver spoon kid for whom state provision was something somebody else had.

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Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Feb 9, 2024

PVA said:
Fuck off you twat, you voted Tory, you voted Brexit. It's because of people like you we've got this car crash government.

Own it you dense prick.

Whilst I agree the tories deserve nothing, how can you blame people? You leftists can't even decide what gender you are, what's racist, and how we move forward through all the infighting. What fucking chance do you have to make the country better? There's zero confidence for a good reason, and just because there's a bit of a circle jerk going on in this off-topic chat, it doesn't reflect the real world outside.

This thread continues to make me laugh.

shmmeee · Feb 9, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Ok, Tories are practically far right so being a bit to their left is a terrific position to be eh?

These Labour politicians are the ones who hark back to great things Labour governments did, you wouldn't have heard Nye Bevan prattling on about national credit cards (or the 40s equivalent) or tough choices. These were people who cared about the fate of their class. Starmer, Reeves, Streeting care only about their own very narrow class of careerist politicians looking for future personal pay days.

I'm quite content to have beliefs rooted in fantasy rather than vote for any of these dickheads.

That said, unlike you I'm not some silver spoon kid for whom state provision was something somebody else had.

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So what’s your answer? Permanent opposition? This is fundamentally the issue. You refuse to negotiate with the electorate to the point where you claim a government promising £23bn instead of £28bn on green spending makes them just to the left of far right. And you expect people to take you seriously?

We go round and round on this. We all wish there was a left wing politician who could engage the country and win an election. But it’s not so. Starmer is the most left ei by electable option you have. Moaning about it is about 20 years too late. Figure out why the left can’t produce a decent politician and had to waste their best chance on mentalist magic grandpa.

It sad, I get it, having views to the left of centre sucks, it does on the right too, they’ve been in power for 13 years and are moaning they aren’t right wing enough. That’s the job of the fringes, but spitting out your dummy and effectively working towards a Tory government is a leap I just can’t follow.

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 9, 2024

shmmeee said:
We go round and round on this. We all wish there was a left wing politician who could engage the country and win an election. But it’s not so. Starmer is the most left ei by electable option you have. Moaning about it is about 20 years too late. Figure out why the left can’t produce a decent politician and had to waste their best chance on mentalist magic grandpa

Thing is though, Starmer's leadership election was left enough for me. I understand having to ditch a couple of things too but, honestly, what remains?

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 9, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Whilst I agree the tories deserve nothing, how can you blame people? You leftists can't even decide what gender you are, what's racist, and how we move forward through all the infighting. What fucking chance do you have to make the country better? There's zero confidence for a good reason, and just because there's a bit of a circle jerk going on in this off-topic chat, it doesn't reflect the real world outside.

This thread continues to make me laugh.

I’m a man.
Racism is discrimination based upon race.

Next question please, Evander

PVA · Feb 9, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Ok, Tories are practically far right so being a bit to their left is a terrific position to be eh?

These Labour politicians are the ones who hark back to great things Labour governments did, you wouldn't have heard Nye Bevan prattling on about national credit cards (or the 40s equivalent) or tough choices. These were people who cared about the fate of their class. Starmer, Reeves, Streeting care only about their own very narrow class of careerist politicians looking for future personal pay days.

I'm quite content to have beliefs rooted in fantasy rather than vote for any of these dickheads.

That said, unlike you I'm not some silver spoon kid for whom state provision was something somebody else had.

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No one (in here at least) is saying it's a terrific position to be in. But by default it's better than the Tories and right now I'll take that and look to build on it.

If you want to have your fantasy beliefs in opposition forever good for you, but I don't think you can accuse others of being rooted in fantasy.

And you know nothing of my upbringing, please don't use that as some sort of insult.

PVA · Feb 9, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Whilst I agree the tories deserve nothing, how can you blame people? You leftists can't even decide what gender you are, what's racist, and how we move forward through all the infighting. What fucking chance do you have to make the country better? There's zero confidence for a good reason, and just because there's a bit of a circle jerk going on in this off-topic chat, it doesn't reflect the real world outside.

This thread continues to make me laugh.

Of course I can blame Tory and Brexit voters for the current state of the country. They literally voted for it.

I'm quite happy with the what gender I am and what a racist is.

And I don't know if you've noticed but there's quite a lot of confidence in the Labour Party right now.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 9, 2024

PVA said:
No one (in here at least) is saying it's a terrific position to be in. But by default it's better than the Tories and right now I'll take that and look to build on it.

If you want to have your fantasy beliefs in opposition forever good for you, but I don't think you can accuse others of being rooted in fantasy.

And you know nothing of my upbringing, please don't use that as some sort of insult.

Fantasy beliefs like the right to strike and that maybe bankers shouldn’t have their huge bonuses untaxed.

As I said, this country has been drifting right for ages. And it’s in no small part down to centrists who didn’t want to fight it

PVA · Feb 9, 2024

The horseshoe is strong in here.

It's not the fault of the government of the last 13 years
It's not the fault of the opposition who had two cracks at it and got their arses handed to them

It is, in fact, everyone else's fault.

Grendel · Feb 9, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Whilst I agree the tories deserve nothing, how can you blame people? You leftists can't even decide what gender you are, what's racist, and how we move forward through all the infighting. What fucking chance do you have to make the country better? There's zero confidence for a good reason, and just because there's a bit of a circle jerk going on in this off-topic chat, it doesn't reflect the real world outside.

This thread continues to make me laugh.

He isn’t left wing - he used to vote Tory

Grendel · Feb 9, 2024

Deleted member 9744 said:
Totally true. The current Government's policies are effectively those of the National Front in the 1980s.

Never mind. Starmer is slightly right of John Major. Reeves is definitely colour blind. She’s a classic one nation conservative

fernandopartridge · Feb 9, 2024

PVA said:
The horseshoe is strong in here.

It's not the fault of the government of the last 13 years
It's not the fault of the opposition who had two cracks at it and got their arses handed to them

It is, in fact, everyone else's fault.

Was it Tory or Lib Dem you voted for in 2010?

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Grendel · Feb 9, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Was it Tory or Lib Dem you voted for in 2010?

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I’ve a feeling we’ve got another Tony on our hands

PVA · Feb 9, 2024

Ah you got me. I'm secretly a life long Tory voter.

Bring back are Boris!

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 9, 2024

Grendel said:
Never mind. Starmer is slightly right of John Major. Reeves is definitely colour blind. She’s a classic one nation conservative

It is fair to say that Edward Heath would have been called a raging lefty by a fair few on here!

Deleted member 9744 · Feb 9, 2024

Grendel said:
Never mind. Starmer is slightly right of John Major. Reeves is definitely colour blind. She’s a classic one nation conservative

I think we are saying the same. Politics has moved so far to the right.

fernandopartridge · Feb 9, 2024

shmmeee said:
So what’s your answer? Permanent opposition? This is fundamentally the issue. You refuse to negotiate with the electorate to the point where you claim a government promising £23bn instead of £28bn on green spending makes them just to the left of far right. And you expect people to take you seriously?

We go round and round on this. We all wish there was a left wing politician who could engage the country and win an election. But it’s not so. Starmer is the most left ei by electable option you have. Moaning about it is about 20 years too late. Figure out why the left can’t produce a decent politician and had to waste their best chance on mentalist magic grandpa.

It sad, I get it, having views to the left of centre sucks, it does on the right too, they’ve been in power for 13 years and are moaning they aren’t right wing enough. That’s the job of the fringes, but spitting out your dummy and effectively working towards a Tory government is a leap I just can’t follow.

The Labour offer is materially the same as if not the current but certainly the 2010 Tory offer (they both stated that there would be no budget deficit and a reduction in overall 'debt'). It's austerity, "we can't do things because of the previous government" and some incredibly vague statements about growth. I'm in opposition to that. They are offering literally nothing to me.

I was actually going to hold my nose and vote for the local candidate but genuinely what's the point?

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Deleted member 5849 · Feb 9, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
The Labour offer is materially the same as if not the current but certainly the 2010 Tory offer (they both stated that there would be no budget deficit and a reduction in overall 'debt'). It's austerity, "we can't do things because of the previous government" and some incredibly vague statements about growth. I'm in opposition to that. They are offering literally nothing to me.

I was actually going to hold my nose and vote for the local candidate but genuinely what's the point?

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tbf, shmmeee does have a point that the current crop of insane Tories are worse than even a centre-right leaning Labour Party, so that's the point.

Also easier to influence from a position of power than on the margins, so better to start there really.

But I do agree it's frustrating. tbh Starmer's leadership campaign was about right for me - progressive, vaguely left policies dressed up in a respectable intelligent suit who'd shown he could argue well, and ditching the more wild areas of policy and rhetoric for electability. The thrall to focus groups is disappointing, as there has been an opportunity to lead the conversation that hasn't been taken. You'd think a manifesto has to say something about going forward as people do need to be inspired with a bit of hope - Johnson may be an incompetent womaniser, but he's always understood that you offer people promises of hope and things happening, and people vote for you!

Anyway, I reckon my seat will stay Tory regardless (UKIP always seemed to run strongly here too!) so I'll be voting Labour out of tokenism unless somebody really moves me from the margins - and no, it won't be Reform!

skybluetony176 · Feb 9, 2024

It’s a binary choice for me. Either tactically vote to get your Tory MP out or keep your Labour or Lib Dem MP in at the expense of the Tories. It’s not much of a choice I agree but the alternative is playing a part in keeping the biggest joke of a government in history in power.

Even Rachel Reeves doesn’t look so bad when you see Chief Secretary to the Treasury Laura Trott having to have it explain to her that debt isn’t falling, not even as a percentage of GDP and although is predicted to start falling in 5 years it’s still predicted to be higher at the end of that period than it is currently. Explained by the guy who presents Dragons Den. They’re promising Tax cuts of the back of something that they clearly just don’t understand. Although I think Labour’s latest U turn is short sighted you can at least point to an argument on a spreadsheet that makes sense.

At the end of the day what choice do we have when voting past keeping your Labour/Lib Dem MP in and voting to get your Tory MP’s out. That’s your only choices. I’d even take a few Reform MP’s, yes they’re all fruit loops but then so is the Tories 2019 intake and on top of the traditional fruit loops they already had. At least they’ll be fruit loops on the opposition benches and not in government.

fernandopartridge · Feb 9, 2024

Deleted member 5849 said:
tbf, shmmeee does have a point that the current crop of insane Tories are worse than even a centre-right leaning Labour Party, so that's the point.

Also easier to influence from a position of power than on the margins, so better to start there really.

But I do agree it's frustrating. tbh Starmer's leadership campaign was about right for me - progressive, vaguely left policies dressed up in a respectable intelligent suit who'd shown he could argue well, and ditching the more wild areas of policy and rhetoric for electability. The thrall to focus groups is disappointing, as there has been an opportunity to lead the conversation that hasn't been taken. You'd think a manifesto has to say something about going forward as people do need to be inspired with a bit of hope - Johnson may be an incompetent womaniser, but he's always understood that you offer people promises of hope and things happening, and people vote for you!

Anyway, I reckon my seat will stay Tory regardless (UKIP always seemed to run strongly here too!) so I'll be voting Labour out of tokenism unless somebody really moves me from the margins - and no, it won't be Reform!

The objective of me voting is not to vote against the Tories - I am never going to vote for them so it's irrelevant to me if they are worse.

This site is interesting: UK Predictions

This the prediction for my constituency:

Do you want to discuss boring politics? (205 Viewers)

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