Do you want to discuss boring politics? (159 Viewers)

duffer · Mar 21, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
I’ve come to the conclusion that governing is too hard for my socialist friends to consider so they’d much rather moan and blame and accuse others than have the reigns to make a meaningful change

Couple of thoughts, Pete.

"Socialist" needs definition before you accuse someone of either being or not being one.

So let's stick with the centre-left as the people you're accusing of not wanting to be in government.

So typically, in my book, that means being in favour of a mixed economy (not a five-year plan for Tractors etc.), nationalisation of key infrastructure, rail, and utilities, being broadly in favour of a redistribution of wealth to reduce inequality, support for trade unions and workers' rights, and having a humane welfare system and a working NHS.

Having made that definition, that's broadly where I stand, and where the Labour party used to be. What gives you the impression that I wouldn't want that party to take the reins, I used to be in it.

duffer · Mar 21, 2024

duffer said:
Couple of thoughts, Pete.

"Socialist" needs definition before you accuse someone of either being or not being one.

So let's stick with the centre-left as the people you're accusing of not wanting to be in government.

So typically, in my book, that means being in favour of a mixed economy (not a five-year plan for Tractors etc.), nationalisation of key infrastructure, rail, and utilities, being broadly in favour of a redistribution of wealth to reduce inequality, support for trade unions and workers' rights, and having a humane welfare system and a working NHS.

Having made that definition, that's broadly where I stand, and where the Labour party used to be. What gives you the impression that I wouldn't want that party to take the reins, I used to be in it.

P.S. I do consider you a friend mate, even if it's only on here. Shmmeee too. Christ, I even quite like @rob9872 and he's obviously a Tory nutter.

We can talk about this stuff, and even differ substantially without hating each other*, I hope. I value these discussions, it's good to have one's opinions challenged.

*Except for @Otis, obviously. I can't bear that bloke and his ongoing and blatant attempt to privatise the entire rail industry and bring it under his sole command.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 21, 2024

clint van damme said:
Edit - deleted my comment, was unfair

Oh what did it say?

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 21, 2024

duffer said:
Couple of thoughts, Pete.

"Socialist" needs definition before you accuse someone of either being or not being one.

So let's stick with the centre-left as the people you're accusing of not wanting to be in government.

So typically, in my book, that means being in favour of a mixed economy (not a five-year plan for Tractors etc.), nationalisation of key infrastructure, rail, and utilities, being broadly in favour of a redistribution of wealth to reduce inequality, support for trade unions and workers' rights, and having a humane welfare system and a working NHS.

Having made that definition, that's broadly where I stand, and where the Labour party used to be. What gives you the impression that I wouldn't want that party to take the reins, I used to be in it.

A well made argument
I consider myself in the same place
I believe starmers Labour Party will be in that space

duffer · Mar 21, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
A well made argument
I consider myself in the same place
I believe starmers Labour Party will be in that space

And I guess, with every respect, that is where we differ Pete, because I don't see Starmer supporting or even trying to make the case for any of those things (except for some comments regarding workers' rights, perhaps).

In fact, it seems he's rapidly backed away from those commitments.

In a very simplistic way, I see it like this: If you take on conservative fiscal rules, and you're against any kind of redistribution of wealth, and you don't increase taxation at any level, then your only other option is continued austerity.

Otherwise it's the magical mystery growth tour which somehow funds change, and as the last 14 years have shown, that bus ain't running (other than through immigration).

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 21, 2024

duffer said:
And I guess, with every respect, that is where we differ Pete, because I don't see Starmer supporting or even trying to make the case for any of those things (except for some comments regarding workers' rights, perhaps).

In fact, it seems he's rapidly backed away from those commitments.

In a very simplistic way, I see it like this: If you take on conservative fiscal rules, and you're against any kind of redistribution of wealth, and you don't increase taxation at any level, then your only other option is continued austerity.

Otherwise it's the magical mystery growth tour which somehow funds change, and as the last 14 years have shown, that bus ain't running (other than through immigration).

There’s no alternative is there? As shmmee says

rob9872 · Mar 21, 2024

duffer said:
P.S. I do consider you a friend mate, even if it's only on here. Shmmeee too. Christ, I even quite like @rob9872 and he's obviously a Tory nutter.

We can talk about this stuff, and even differ substantially without hating each other*, I hope. I value these discussions, it's good to have one's opinions challenged.

*Except for @Otis, obviously. I can't bear that bloke and his ongoing and blatant attempt to privatise the entire rail industry and bring it under his sole command.

I've been trying to avoid this thread so I only talk City and stop falling out with people, don't drag me back in

(Fingers in ears)

Ian1779 · Mar 21, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
There’s no alternative is there? As shmmee says

The people that tell us there are ‘difficult decisions to make’ are never those who suffer directly as a result of those decisions.

Its disappointing that you can’t see Austerity Mk2 coming over the horizon, and even more so that you’re ambivalent to it.

Liquid Gold · Mar 21, 2024

Como said:
I would think there is a big sigh of relief in the Labour Party that Owen has gone.

And I find it really hard to believe even Labour can screw this up, the Conservatives have imploded and will need their time in the wilderness.

Can I envisage Labour making a mess of things, well yes there are plenty of precedents. How long will that take, well it also requires the Conservatives to get a grip so who knows?

Both have the tides of history against them and it will be impossible to detach themselves from their contribution.

Interesting times.

Labour will absolutely fuck this up. Not the election obviously, they're already sorted. But they will fuck up in government by following the same failed neo-liberal economic model that has bought the country to its knees.

Then our only option is the Conservatives who will either have stayed on the right or drifted back towards the centre right and will deliver the same failed model.

The country has been robbed blind and we need massive government intervention in such a huge variety of sectors. Instead we'll get new Labour's "ooo look we bought poverty down by 3%" but done nothing structural to change the tories coming back and knocking another 10% into poverty.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 21, 2024

Ian1779 said:
The people that tell us there are ‘difficult decisions to make’ are never those who suffer directly as a result of those decisions.

Its disappointing that you can’t see Austerity Mk2 coming over the horizon, and even more so that you’re ambivalent to it.

Who says?

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 21, 2024

We all agree what we want

wingy · Mar 21, 2024

The only concern for me is the pound is probably overvalued ATM?

Ian1779 · Mar 21, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
Who says?

Reeves and Starmer have come out time and again and said they will follow Tory fiscal rules, not legislate for a wealth tax and appear to be expecting to grow the economy simply on ‘vibes’ - after the last 14 years surely we deserve more that that.

I will admit I stupidly fell for the ‘all in this together’ line from 2010 - never again.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 21, 2024

Ian1779 said:
Reeves and Starmer have come out time and again and said they will follow Tory fiscal rules, not legislate for a wealth tax and appear to be expecting to grow the economy simply on ‘vibes’ - after the last 14 years surely we deserve more that that.

I will admit I stupidly fell for the ‘all in this together’ line from 2010 - never again.

Sorry who says I don’t see

Ian1779 · Mar 21, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
Sorry who says I don’t see

So why say that governing is too hard for your socialist friends? Is making people suffer a necessary condition of governing? You’ve seen the headlines even today about child poverty and the best we can offer our young people is ‘I’m sorry we have to ensure we obey our imaginary fiscal rules’

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 21, 2024

Ian1779 said:
So why say that governing is too hard for your socialist friends? Is making people suffer a necessary condition of governing? You’ve seen the headlines even today about child poverty and the best we can offer our young people is ‘I’m sorry we have to ensure we obey our imaginary fiscal rules’

I think he’s wrong but is portraying a steady hand as the country is centrist and risk averse

Liquid Gold · Mar 21, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
I think he’s wrong but is portraying a steady hand as the country is centrist and risk averse

I don't think the country is risk averse.

They voted for Brext because they were desperate for change.
Corbyn got rid of May's majority because they were desperate for change.
Johnson got a stonking majority promising to deliver the Brexit people thought would bring change.
Now people are going to give the Tories the mother of all kickings because they've changed fuck all.

Starmer could at least offer some crumbs.

fernandopartridge · Mar 21, 2024

Why even comment on such a non story?

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fernandopartridge · Mar 21, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
I think he’s wrong but is portraying a steady hand as the country is centrist and risk averse

Not sure, is that because the country's media tells people they are, whereas the reality is that a lot of people are very keen on state provision, certainly of utilities, transport, health services.

What risk are you talking about here?

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Sky Blue Pete · Mar 22, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Not sure, is that because the country's media tells people they are, whereas the reality is that a lot of people are very keen on state provision, certainly of utilities, transport, health services.

What risk are you talking about here?

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Economic
Spending mainly

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 22, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
Economic
Spending mainly

Not my opinion of course I think it works differently and huge investment is needed in our country after many years of neglect
Im not in power and neither will reform or tusc or Lib Dem’s or none of the above be

Grendel · Mar 22, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Why even comment on such a non story?

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The funny thing was when he said he’s a massive football fan and goes to lots of mens and womens games

fernandopartridge · Mar 22, 2024

Why is the country in such an abysmal and hopeless state

It's definitely not the Oxbridge morons from the media and politics

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Sky Blue Pete · Mar 22, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Why is the country in such an abysmal and hopeless state

It's definitely not the Oxbridge morons from the media and politics

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Thought Emily handled it well
Dismissive and saying she couldn’t understand why it would be changed I think I agree
Not that I care compared with poverty

fernandopartridge · Mar 22, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
Thought Emily handled it well
Dismissive and saying she couldn’t understand why it would be changed I think I agree
Not that I care compared with poverty

Handling it well would be "don't ask me such a stupid question" but doing that would expose her leader

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Grendel · Mar 22, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
Thought Emily handled it well
Dismissive and saying she couldn’t understand why it would be changed I think I agree
Not that I care compared with poverty

Lol Thornberry was booted out the shadow cabinet for slagging the thick working class workers who hang them out their windows.

Handled it well! She’s an appalling snob and a hypocrite

SBT · Mar 22, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Handling it well would be "don't ask me such a stupid question" but doing that would expose her leader

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Politicians don’t generally tend to dismiss things that people are very upset about as “stupid”, even if it is stupid.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 22, 2024

SBT said:
Politicians don’t generally tend to dismiss things that people are very upset about as “stupid”, even if it is stupid.

Unless those people are on the left of course

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 22, 2024

Grendel said:
Lol Thornberry was booted out the shadow cabinet for slagging the thick working class workers who hang them out their windows.

Handled it well! She’s an appalling snob and a hypocrite

Did you watch it?

skybluetony176 · Mar 22, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Handling it well would be "don't ask me such a stupid question" but doing that would expose her leader

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If she said that the flag shaggers in the government, media and general public would have lost their shit and Labour would now being asked why they hate the country.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 22, 2024

fernandopartridge said:
Handling it well would be "don't ask me such a stupid question" but doing that would expose her leader

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I don’t think it’s stupid but it’s not the most important thing

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 22, 2024

SBT said:
Politicians don’t generally tend to dismiss things that people are very upset about as “stupid”, even if it is stupid.

Yep can’t win

shmmeee · Mar 22, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
I’ve come to the conclusion that governing is too hard for my socialist friends to consider so they’d much rather moan and blame and accuse others than have the reigns to make a meaningful change

Governing requires compromise and that’s the biggest sin there is to some.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 22, 2024

shmmeee said:
Governing requires compromise and that’s the biggest sin there is to some.

What compromises have the Tories had to make to get elected or while in government?

Grendel · Mar 22, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
Did you watch it?

Yes - she’s an appalling snob and dreadful

Do you want to discuss boring politics? (159 Viewers)

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