shmmeee
Well-Known Member
No ones are.
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (24 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
- Start date
No ones are.
StrettoBoy
Well-Known Member
That's true but I am normally torn as to whether to vote Labour or Conservative. I am going to wait until the election manifestos are out before deciding how to cast my vote.
If the election were held today my choice would be between casting aside my feelings about Starmer and voting Labour or voting LibDem. At the moment it's more likely to be the latter but we will see.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
In all seriousness if you’re genuinely a median voter then Labour is the obvious centrist choice this election. Even if you are a soft Tory most I know think the party needs a period out of power to sort itself post Brexit.
I don’t think the Tories will die, like I didn’t think Labour would under Corbyn. FPTP is a hell of a drug. But they either need to bring the one nation Tories back inside the tent, or I can see Reform and the Lib Dem’s eating their vote.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Need some form of pr
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Good article here on landlordism, the elephant in the room neither of the main parties seems willing to address
www.theguardian.com
The end of landlords: the surprisingly simple solution to the UK housing crisis
Mass-scale housebuilding isn’t necessary – there is already enough housing stock. But we need to learn the wisdom of the last century when it comes to landlordism
StrettoBoy
Well-Known Member
Good article here on landlordism, the elephant in the room neither of the main parties seems willing to address
The end of landlords: the surprisingly simple solution to the UK housing crisis
Mass-scale housebuilding isn’t necessary – there is already enough housing stock. But we need to learn the wisdom of the last century when it comes to landlordism
I read that yesterday.
As a plan it is superficially appealing but if private landlords are driven to sell up it will reduce the supply and drive rents up. There is evidence that the present government's increase in CGT is having that effect already.
I think it's a case of being careful what you wish for.
StrettoBoy
Well-Known Member
There is no doubt that Starmer is trying to position Labour as a centrist party. My concern, which I have expressed before, is that he always seeks to be popular with whatever electorate he is facing at the time.
He was much more to the left when seeking election as party leader and has moved to the right in anticipation of the general election. He has performed so many U turns that I don't think I can trust him.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
ELI5 how this leads to a reduction in supply. Like, in real terms, what’s happening to these houses? Surely either they’re going onto the market and making housing more affordable which also removes renters, or it’s about less being built but the bottleneck on housing isn’t demand from builders it’s planning. Obviously more housing needs to be built regardless as there’s a shortage, but ignoring that what’s the logic here? Historically as one sector drops another picks up the slack cos people always need to live somewhere and houses are already built so it’s mostly whether it’s state private or landlord owned.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
It's not really - increasing CGT doesn't go nearly far enough
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
You are describing the positional history of literally everyone ever elected as PM.
StrettoBoy
Well-Known Member
Although there is undoubtedly some truth in that I think Starmer has taken it to new heights with the number of U turns he has made and the total abandonment of his flagship green investment policy. I doubt that there is much left of the manifesto he stood on in the party leadership election.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
He didn’t stand on a manifesto for leadership. There is no manifesto. This is all supposition at this point.
Starmer is not at all unique as a party leader going for election. Johnson did the same, Cameron did the same, May did the same, Blair did the same. This is just standard attacking Labour for doing normal politics as somehow uniquely abhorrent.
Are there problems with party members who are significantly away from the median voter controlling the candidates? 100%. But its a bit weird to suddenly have an issue with it now for one specific candidate. You wouldn’t be able to vote for anyone anywhere other than joke parties with that as a bar.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I’m not doing the “pledge” convo again. I’m sure it’s in this thread if people want my thoughts.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Been very interesting to see how the friends of mine who have become private landlords and started collecting money for doing jack shit have changed their stance on this issue, having previously been renters themselves.Good article here on landlordism, the elephant in the room neither of the main parties seems willing to address
The end of landlords: the surprisingly simple solution to the UK housing crisis
Mass-scale housebuilding isn’t necessary – there is already enough housing stock. But we need to learn the wisdom of the last century when it comes to landlordism
They'll just move up the chain, will be overtaken by super wealthy individual's who don't care about this tax or that?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Very much 'I'm alright Jack' types now
StrettoBoy
Well-Known Member
You know perfectly well what I mean. I don't think it is unreasonable to refer to his pledges as his personal manifesto because that is what they are.
My issue is that he has done U-turns on most of them and - to a greater extent than most politicians - I don't think he is to be trusted. I have a couple of friends who are quite left wing and they feel cheated by him.
As for his Brexit policy of "I'll get a better deal, put it to the people and then campaign against it" that is just laughable.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Much as I'd disagree with you on the much of the rest of what you'd say (and I owe you an apology for biting your head off on it, sorry, there was no need for that), there's no denying Starmer's mendacity.
This sums up pretty much exactly how I feel about the Labour party under his leadership:
The Labour party is in my blood. Here’s why I’ve just cancelled my membership | Owen Jones
My ancestors could always point to Labour policies that transformed ordinary lives. I cannot say the same, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Owen Jones doing Owen Jones things.
This is just fundamentally false. And it’s the conceit every supposed left wing voter who refuses to vote Labour creates.
I’ve seen actual human beings claiming Labour are fascist and “disaster capitalist” (whatever that’s supposed to mean in this context. It certainly doesn’t match anything Klein wrote about.). It’s overly online derangement syndrome.
This is a party that has yet to release its manifesto and even after “becoming Tory” (appealing to the median British voter in an election year) is promising:
- Nationalised energy
- Investment in safe and legal route and improved processing of asylum applications
- Free breakfast clubs
- End private school tax break
- Massive green energy investment
- Workers rights reforms
- House building
And this is a party following the Biden model of centrist in the streets and leftist in the sheets. And like Biden the left can’t see it.
Is it Jeremy’s Great Socialist Extravaganza? No. Does it look like it will actually happen? Yes. Which means Starmer will do infinitely more for the poor that Corbyn ever came close to.
You have decided that Starmer will definitely do things that he hasn’t even said he’ll do, because he has rowed back on things he said he would do. It’s just confirmation bias all the way down. Occams Razor is he’s a politician trying to get elected in the UK saying all the things people who get elected have to say. Yet no, this is 2024 and mental Twitter conspiracy takes are king and obviously Keir Starmer spent his whole life in progressive politics as a feint so he can really institute a mild Tory agenda. He stayed out of the much more successful Tory party where these ideas are both easy to get through and actually in government more often than not, because reasons.
It’s a take only taken by people who have never met a Labour Party politician other than through a clipped TikTok clip or an out of context screenshot on Twitter. The idea that even if they aren’t pushing for the People’s Republic of Britain are somehow not ideologically opposed to the Tories is just fucking insane. “Oh but shmmeee I met a bloke and he was quite right wing and a Labour councillor/MP/commentator” was he as right wing as the equivalent Tory for that area? Is he representative of the vast majority of the party that lets be honest is almost exclusively very left wing people?
I’m so fucking done with explaining basic electoral facts to fuckwits who claim to be into politics. If you don’t understand that the median voter thinks Labour spend too much and will let all the immigrants in, or you don’t understand how election messaging works (hint it is barely paid any attention to and needs to be big and obvious and repeated multiple times), or you would rather take the fever imaginings of “NeverLabourCorbz4LyfeStalinDidNothingWrong” than fucking look at the evidence of the last “right wing” Labour government and what it did for: child poverty, social mobility, wages, the economy, equality law, public services despite being run by someone significantly to the right of Starmer and in spite of their fuck ups. If you look at that and go “no actually I want the Tories to win” (because that’s what a non-Labour vote is in our system) then I have real trouble taking you seriously and so should everyone else.
Is Starmer overly cautious? Yes. Is that completely fucking understandable after 14 years of opposition? Also yes.
If you withhold your vote and make Labour lose/cut it close, and think that will make Labour move left and not right to gain more votes, please just fucking read one book about electoral politics. Or a Wikipedia article.
This is just fundamentally false. And it’s the conceit every supposed left wing voter who refuses to vote Labour creates.
I’ve seen actual human beings claiming Labour are fascist and “disaster capitalist” (whatever that’s supposed to mean in this context. It certainly doesn’t match anything Klein wrote about.). It’s overly online derangement syndrome.
This is a party that has yet to release its manifesto and even after “becoming Tory” (appealing to the median British voter in an election year) is promising:
- Nationalised energy
- Investment in safe and legal route and improved processing of asylum applications
- Free breakfast clubs
- End private school tax break
- Massive green energy investment
- Workers rights reforms
- House building
And this is a party following the Biden model of centrist in the streets and leftist in the sheets. And like Biden the left can’t see it.
Is it Jeremy’s Great Socialist Extravaganza? No. Does it look like it will actually happen? Yes. Which means Starmer will do infinitely more for the poor that Corbyn ever came close to.
You have decided that Starmer will definitely do things that he hasn’t even said he’ll do, because he has rowed back on things he said he would do. It’s just confirmation bias all the way down. Occams Razor is he’s a politician trying to get elected in the UK saying all the things people who get elected have to say. Yet no, this is 2024 and mental Twitter conspiracy takes are king and obviously Keir Starmer spent his whole life in progressive politics as a feint so he can really institute a mild Tory agenda. He stayed out of the much more successful Tory party where these ideas are both easy to get through and actually in government more often than not, because reasons.
It’s a take only taken by people who have never met a Labour Party politician other than through a clipped TikTok clip or an out of context screenshot on Twitter. The idea that even if they aren’t pushing for the People’s Republic of Britain are somehow not ideologically opposed to the Tories is just fucking insane. “Oh but shmmeee I met a bloke and he was quite right wing and a Labour councillor/MP/commentator” was he as right wing as the equivalent Tory for that area? Is he representative of the vast majority of the party that lets be honest is almost exclusively very left wing people?
I’m so fucking done with explaining basic electoral facts to fuckwits who claim to be into politics. If you don’t understand that the median voter thinks Labour spend too much and will let all the immigrants in, or you don’t understand how election messaging works (hint it is barely paid any attention to and needs to be big and obvious and repeated multiple times), or you would rather take the fever imaginings of “NeverLabourCorbz4LyfeStalinDidNothingWrong” than fucking look at the evidence of the last “right wing” Labour government and what it did for: child poverty, social mobility, wages, the economy, equality law, public services despite being run by someone significantly to the right of Starmer and in spite of their fuck ups. If you look at that and go “no actually I want the Tories to win” (because that’s what a non-Labour vote is in our system) then I have real trouble taking you seriously and so should everyone else.
Is Starmer overly cautious? Yes. Is that completely fucking understandable after 14 years of opposition? Also yes.
If you withhold your vote and make Labour lose/cut it close, and think that will make Labour move left and not right to gain more votes, please just fucking read one book about electoral politics. Or a Wikipedia article.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Oh and while I’m on a roll:
Can we talk about how fucking cowardly this whole thing is from “the left”?
We all know that if the polls were 50:50 every last fucking one of you would be voting Labour even if it was ran by Tony Blair in a mech suit. Because you know all of this. You know any Labour govt is better than any Tory one. But you want to signal how super left wing you are and how you don’t agree with this specific flavour of Labour that’s about to be elected. So you rely on everyone else to vote with their conscience so you can be special.
Fuck all the way off.
And yes, this also applied to anyone who didn’t vote Labour in 2017/19, but this is 2024 so we’re talking about you.
Can we talk about how fucking cowardly this whole thing is from “the left”?
We all know that if the polls were 50:50 every last fucking one of you would be voting Labour even if it was ran by Tony Blair in a mech suit. Because you know all of this. You know any Labour govt is better than any Tory one. But you want to signal how super left wing you are and how you don’t agree with this specific flavour of Labour that’s about to be elected. So you rely on everyone else to vote with their conscience so you can be special.
Fuck all the way off.
And yes, this also applied to anyone who didn’t vote Labour in 2017/19, but this is 2024 so we’re talking about you.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Nurse!!
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I’ve come to the conclusion that governing is too hard for my socialist friends to consider so they’d much rather moan and blame and accuse others than have the reigns to make a meaningful change
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Absofuckinlutely
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
And yet trade unions continue to make meaningful change for the workforces who have them even despite the sustained efforts of multiple governments to kneecap their ability to do so.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Yep as a lead negotiator I agree
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I see the Tory Mayoral candidate for Greater Manchester has just defected to Reform. They only selected him in December.
StrettoBoy
Well-Known Member
My goodness, you certainly don't countenance any views other than your own do you? Not even those Labour supporters with more moderate opinions than yours.
You ought to go and live in a Socialist paradise where opposition to the government isn't allowed.
North Korea springs to mind
duffer
Well-Known Member
While we're on a roll then and accusing everyone on the left of being fuckwits and cowards, let's look at Starmer's lies and what he's committing the party to. Conservative fiscal policy.
This is the epic brainless pretence that there's no money to invest, even for the good of the country, the health of its citizens, or most importantly to encourage growth.
The only way forward for the Labour party now is either continued austerity or unicorn and rainbow growth. Bananas. That policy has already failed under this Government, look around you.
The cowardice, if we're going to use that word, is on the right of the Labour party, not the left.
Own that for once, instead of hiding behind "electoral hygiene" as an excuse for making stuff up when running for the leadership of the party and then hiding behind the curtains whenever anything that might upset the Daily Mail is suggested.
Most of the policies that Corbyn proposed and that Starmer pledged to support were both necessary and polled well.
There has never been a better or more critical time to make the case for them, and there's never been a more receptive country towards them.
There are some things that have really pissed me off here. Saying that people on the left don't understand politics and calling them fuckwits is bullshit, and a pretty cuntish thing to say in all honesty.
I did social sciences and politics when I was 18 (a long time ago) and before I realised that it wasn't going to pay much. I've followed it closely ever since. I've actively supported Labour my whole life, except on the two occasions when they've moved away from their core values - abstaining on the Tory welfare bill (with Reeves and Harman front and centre, iirc), and right now.
I am fucked if I'm voting for a party that is offering more of the same Tory dogma, with a couple of minor tweaks.
That isn't what the Labour party is supposed to be, and it's certainly not what the country needs right now.
By moving the Labour party to the right, and offering no genuine prospect for change, I think we're going to get an even worse (but more efficient) Tory government in the near future when everything turns out to be almost as bad under Starmer. I guess we'll see.
This is the epic brainless pretence that there's no money to invest, even for the good of the country, the health of its citizens, or most importantly to encourage growth.
The only way forward for the Labour party now is either continued austerity or unicorn and rainbow growth. Bananas. That policy has already failed under this Government, look around you.
The cowardice, if we're going to use that word, is on the right of the Labour party, not the left.
Own that for once, instead of hiding behind "electoral hygiene" as an excuse for making stuff up when running for the leadership of the party and then hiding behind the curtains whenever anything that might upset the Daily Mail is suggested.
Most of the policies that Corbyn proposed and that Starmer pledged to support were both necessary and polled well.
There has never been a better or more critical time to make the case for them, and there's never been a more receptive country towards them.
There are some things that have really pissed me off here. Saying that people on the left don't understand politics and calling them fuckwits is bullshit, and a pretty cuntish thing to say in all honesty.
I did social sciences and politics when I was 18 (a long time ago) and before I realised that it wasn't going to pay much. I've followed it closely ever since. I've actively supported Labour my whole life, except on the two occasions when they've moved away from their core values - abstaining on the Tory welfare bill (with Reeves and Harman front and centre, iirc), and right now.
I am fucked if I'm voting for a party that is offering more of the same Tory dogma, with a couple of minor tweaks.
That isn't what the Labour party is supposed to be, and it's certainly not what the country needs right now.
By moving the Labour party to the right, and offering no genuine prospect for change, I think we're going to get an even worse (but more efficient) Tory government in the near future when everything turns out to be almost as bad under Starmer. I guess we'll see.
Northants Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
My goodness, you certainly don't countenance any views other than your own do you? Not even those Labour supporters with more moderate opinions than yours.
You ought to go and live in a Socialist paradise where opposition to the government isn't allowed.
North Korea springs to mind
Owen Jones more `moderate' than Schmeee!???
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Very interesting. So it turns out that *checks notes* socialist style intervention prevented more people from falling into poverty.
Absolute poverty: UK sees biggest rise for 30 years
The energy price crisis caused the sharpest increase in absolute poverty in 30 years, official figures show.
www.bbc.co.uk
Como
Well-Known Member
I would think there is a big sigh of relief in the Labour Party that Owen has gone.
And I find it really hard to believe even Labour can screw this up, the Conservatives have imploded and will need their time in the wilderness.
Can I envisage Labour making a mess of things, well yes there are plenty of precedents. How long will that take, well it also requires the Conservatives to get a grip so who knows?
Both have the tides of history against them and it will be impossible to detach themselves from their contribution.
Interesting times.
And I find it really hard to believe even Labour can screw this up, the Conservatives have imploded and will need their time in the wilderness.
Can I envisage Labour making a mess of things, well yes there are plenty of precedents. How long will that take, well it also requires the Conservatives to get a grip so who knows?
Both have the tides of history against them and it will be impossible to detach themselves from their contribution.
Interesting times.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Sorry Pete but you’re talking shite here.
