Do you want to discuss boring politics? (43 Viewers)

[MalcSB]

What you call capitulation, I would call negotiation.

Accepting the pay review body recommendations in full isn’t negotiation.
Paid for with pensioners winter fuel allowance. Rail workers pay rises will be paid for by increased ticket prices.

As an aside,I wish the government would cancel the £10 Christmas payment to benefit recipients. It is, at the same time, an insult and an embarrassment.

 

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[fernandopartridge]

What was the compromise with the junior doctors, for example? More productivity?

What will be the compromise with rail unions? Modernisation of working practices?

No, it's a cost of living pay negotiation, you don't get more for less.

 

[MalcSB]

No, it's a cost of living pay negotiation, you don't get more for less.

But you said it was settling a long term dispute with a compromise.

 

[shmmeee]

It also stands to reason that actually talking to unions and coming to the table with them leads to strike action getting sorted much sooner.

The Tories got high on their own supply and genuinely thought public sector pay cuts was a permanent solution to overspending.

Accepting the pay review body recommendations in full isn’t negotiation.
Paid for with pensioners winter fuel allowance. Rail workers pay rises will be paid for by increased ticket prices.

As an aside,I wish the government would cancel the £10 Christmas payment to benefit recipients. It is, at the same time, an insult and an embarrassment.

The last decade has been paid for by cutting public sector workers pay, that was a debt ran up that needed to be paid. Like the prison places. Like infrastructure investment. You can’t just keep putting stuff off and hope it never comes. Childish politics.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Very true. Capitulation sorts strike action out really quickly.

Train drivers next.

Capitulation?

 

[fernandopartridge]

But you said it was settling a long term dispute with a compromise.

Yes, the compromise is that they don't get the increase they requested.

 

[torchomatic]

But you said it was settling a long term dispute with a compromise.

Yes, the compromise is that they don't get the increase they requested.

We've been offered a flat £1200 a year. Union want £3000. I know we won't get £3K but I bet we get more than £1200.

 

[MalcSB]

The Tories got high on their own supply and genuinely thought public sector pay cuts was a permanent solution to overspending.


The last decade has been paid for by cutting public sector workers pay, that was a debt ran up that needed to be paid. Like the prison places. Like infrastructure investment. You can’t just keep putting stuff off and hope it never comes. Childish politics.

TBH I don’t really disagree having been a public sector worker during the period of zero pay rises. As I have said before, my concern is the private sector unions using these catch up deals as a starting point and the potential impact on inflation and consequently interest rates.

 

[shmmeee]

TBH I don’t really disagree having been a public sector worker during the period of zero pay rises. As I have said before, my concern is the private sector unions using these catch up deals as a starting point and the potential impact on inflation and consequently interest rates.

That’s up to the private sector. Not sure it’s a reason to decimate public services. Worry all you like but this is just basic economic forces in action. The government alternative was to continue paying through the nose in recruitment and supply costs because there’s a shortage of staff. Same with the junior doctors.

I’m not sure who ch private industry you’re worried about anyway, what is still heavily unionised?

 

[MalcSB]

That’s up to the private sector. Not sure it’s a reason to decimate public services. Worry all you like but this is just basic economic forces in action. The government alternative was to continue paying through the nose in recruitment and supply costs because there’s a shortage of staff. Same with the junior doctors.

I’m not sure who ch private industry you’re worried about anyway, what is still heavily unionised?

As you will probably have guessed I am a public sector pensioner with no mortgage so, up to a point, inflation and high interest rates won't directly affect me personally. Don't think that either will be great for the economy overall.

I think it is far too early to describe Reeves or this administration as competent. That doesn't mean that I think the last lot were either. I have, in my view, been shafted by Gordon Brown, George Osborne and Jeremy Hunt over the years.

We will see what happens.

 

[wingy]

What was the compromise with the junior doctors, for example? More productivity?

What will be the compromise with rail unions? Modernisation of working practices?

The starting point?

 

[fernandopartridge]

As you will probably have guessed I am a public sector pensioner with no mortgage so, up to a point, inflation and high interest rates won't directly affect me personally. Don't think that either will be great for the economy overall.

I think it is far too early to describe Reeves or this administration as competent. That doesn't mean that I think the last lot were either. I have, in my view, been shafted by Gordon Brown, George Osborne and Jeremy Hunt over the years.

We will see what happens.

Recent inflation was driven primarily by energy costs and secondly by post covid demand for resources. There is very little evidence of inflation driven by wage increases. There isn't even clear evidence that the interest rate rises of the last couple of years have contributed to the rate of inflation falling.

 

[Nick]

Should be cleaned up!

 

[shmmeee]

As you will probably have guessed I am a public sector pensioner with no mortgage so, up to a point, inflation and high interest rates won't directly affect me personally. Don't think that either will be great for the economy overall.

I think it is far too early to describe Reeves or this administration as competent. That doesn't mean that I think the last lot were either. I have, in my view, been shafted by Gordon Brown, George Osborne and Jeremy Hunt over the years.

We will see what happens.

You are working on the assumption that the way to control inflation is to devalue public sector roles. You’ll have to walk me through that logic. If you don’t pay the same you don’t hire the same. Unless we had a particular problem with public sector workers being too high quality and taking talent away from other more productive sectors but I see no evidence for that.

 

[chiefdave]

Should be cleaned up!

Select all, delete

 

[MalcSB]

You are working on the assumption that the way to control inflation is to devalue public sector roles. You’ll have to walk me through that logic. If you don’t pay the same you don’t hire the same. Unless we had a particular problem with public sector workers being too high quality and taking talent away from other more productive sectors but I see no evidence for that.

If you look back you will see that I have already said that I don’t disagree with you on the need to address the effects of a number of years of zero pay increases in the public sector. I have also said that when the economy is going badly, public sector pay is held back and when the economy is going well public sector pay is also held back, both as an attempt to “set an example”. Even after the recent pay award, the scale I was on when I retired would have to be increased by about 30% to have kept pace with inflation since 2004 when Agenda for Change was introduced, So this catch up is, of itself, reasonable but private sector unions will see this as a baseline.

Posters have said that the cause of recent Inflation has not been pay awards but other matters, which is fair comment. Wait and see was my final comment - but I can’t see pay awards in the railway system not ending up in higher priced tickets,

What will be really interesting will be to see how much of these pay awards are included in the setting of the annual budget for the NHS. If they are not fully funded, as has been the experience over the years, that will leave a huge hole to be filled.

Almost as an aside, I‘m not sure what the unions were taking when they agreed to the ending of annual increments for A4C staff.

 

[shmmeee]

If you look back you will see that I have already said that I don’t disagree with you on the need to address the effects of a number of years of zero pay increases in the public sector. I have also said that when the economy is going badly, public sector pay is held back and when the economy is going well public sector pay is also held back, both as an attempt to “set an example”. Even after the recent pay award, the scale I was on when I retired would have to be increased by about 30% to have kept pace with inflation since 2004 when Agenda for Change was introduced, So this catch up is, of itself, reasonable but private sector unions will see this as a baseline.

Posters have said that the cause of recent Inflation has not been pay awards but other matters, which is fair comment. Wait and see was my final comment - but I can’t see pay awards in the railway system not ending up in higher priced tickets,

What will be really interesting will be to see how much of these pay awards are included in the setting of the annual budget for the NHS. If they are not fully funded, as has been the experience over the years, that will leave a huge hole to be filled.

Almost as an aside, I‘m not sure what the unions were taking when they agreed to the ending of annual increments for A4C staff.

Funding is key. Just come back from ten days in the Netherlands and the quality of the public realm is a different level and coming back to broken and dirty Britain has radicalised me a bit. We aren’t a superpower like the US and China, we should just bite the bullet, raise taxes, and fund the basics properly. I think the NHS skews things, if you included healthcare spend in the tax base of other countries they’d be even higher. Basically everything is shit because we don’t pay for anything.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Funding is key. Just come back from ten days in the Netherlands and the quality of the public realm is a different level and coming back to broken and dirty Britain has radicalised me a bit. We aren’t a superpower like the US and China, we should just bite the bullet, raise taxes, and fund the basics properly. I think the NHS skews things, if you included healthcare spend in the tax base of other countries they’d be even higher. Basically everything is shit because we don’t pay for anything.

In essence, you can’t provide quality services on the cheap.

 

[shmmeee]

Funding is key. Just come back from ten days in the Netherlands and the quality of the public realm is a different level and coming back to broken and dirty Britain has radicalised me a bit. We aren’t a superpower like the US and China, we should just bite the bullet, raise taxes, and fund the basics properly. I think the NHS skews things, if you included healthcare spend in the tax base of other countries they’d be even higher. Basically everything is shit because we don’t pay for anything.

On this been thinking that maybe we should have a hypothecated NHS tax that both removes it from the other taxes and makes it clear what we’re spending. Give or take National Insurance raises about the NHS budget. You could just rebrand it and make it universal like IT.

On the one hand people love the NHS and might be willing to pay explicitly for it to be better, on the other visible taxes are usually unpopular taxes so might end up reducing NHS public support.

I’m torn, would be interested in others views.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Funding is key. Just come back from ten days in the Netherlands and the quality of the public realm is a different level and coming back to broken and dirty Britain has radicalised me a bit. We aren’t a superpower like the US and China, we should just bite the bullet, raise taxes, and fund the basics properly. I think the NHS skews things, if you included healthcare spend in the tax base of other countries they’d be even higher. Basically everything is shit because we don’t pay for anything.

Valid point. The health care I've had in NL has been head and shoulders above the UK - but everyone pays health insurance. Free healthcare is one of the things that makes us attractive to people looking to move, but services are stretched as fuck.

The only thing in NL that annoys me about the healthcare is that you have to tell the doctor what you want otherwise they'll look at you like you're wasting their time. The culture is funny.

 

[MalcSB]

Funding is key. Just come back from ten days in the Netherlands and the quality of the public realm is a different level and coming back to broken and dirty Britain has radicalised me a bit. We aren’t a superpower like the US and China, we should just bite the bullet, raise taxes, and fund the basics properly. I think the NHS skews things, if you included healthcare spend in the tax base of other countries they’d be even higher. Basically everything is shit because we don’t pay for anything.

Something also needs to be done about those who will not work - how does the Netherlands welfare state compare with the UK?

Edit: answered my own question, looks like theirs is about half the UKs. Not sure if public funding of NHS will skew the figures (i.e. make UKs percentage appear lower).

 

[shmmeee]

Something also needs to be done about those who will not work - how does the Netherlands welfare state compare with the UK?

I don’t know TBF. And they have the same complaints about immigrants and lazy fuckers. But that stuff doesn’t eat at your psyche like a shit environment and bad roads.

 

[shmmeee]

Valid point. The health care I've had in NL has been head and shoulders above the UK - but everyone pays health insurance. Free healthcare is one of the things that makes us attractive to people looking to move, but services are stretched as fuck.

The only thing in NL that annoys me about the healthcare is that you have to tell the doctor what you want otherwise they'll look at you like you're wasting their time. The culture is funny.

Yeah the no nonsense extends to the doctors from what I understand. My missus is Dutch and wouldn’t move back because she’s got a chronic illness and treatment is much better and cheaper on the NHS.

Whatever anyone’s views people in the UK love the NHS free at the point of use. I just think it means we scrimp on a lot of other basic stuff like infrastructure and maintenance because we spend so much and if we raised taxes so a comparable level to other similar countries we’d look like some crazy socialist banana republic because we’d be including healthcare spend everywhere else has on the individuals balance sheet not the states. So it skews discussion about appropriate tax levels here.

 

[ovduk78]

Yeah the no nonsense extends to the doctors from what I understand. My missus is Dutch and wouldn’t move back because she’s got a chronic illness and treatment is much better and cheaper on the NHS.

Whatever anyone’s views people in the UK love the NHS free at the point of use. I just think it means we scrimp on a lot of other basic stuff like infrastructure and maintenance because we spend so much and if we raised taxes so a comparable level to other similar countries we’d look like some crazy socialist banana republic because we’d be including healthcare spend everywhere else has on the individuals balance sheet not the states. So it skews discussion about appropriate tax levels here.

I'm not sure how NL compares to Belgium but when I lived in Brussels I was paying 55% tax on around £30k pa as well as about £1k every 3 months on NI. There were no other taxes, apart from VAT, so no council tax, water rates etc and tax was a lot lower on things like petrol/diesel. I'm sure it was free transport for pensioners & on the one occasion I had to attend A&E I wasn't charged but I'm fairly sure I had to pay at the pharmacy. I've no idea if a system like that would work in UK but I know the public wouldn't like the tax they pay even if it reduced secondary taxes on things like fuel.

 

[PVA]

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

What’s she doing?
How can she think anyone cares what she thinks it’s bizarre

 

[MalcSB]

I'm not sure how NL compares to Belgium but when I lived in Brussels I was paying 55% tax on around £30k pa as well as about £1k every 3 months on NI. There were no other taxes, apart from VAT, so no council tax, water rates etc and tax was a lot lower on things like petrol/diesel. I'm sure it was free transport for pensioners & on the one occasion I had to attend A&E I wasn't charged but I'm fairly sure I had to pay at the pharmacy. I've no idea if a system like that would work in UK but I know the public wouldn't like the tax they pay even if it reduced secondary taxes on things like fuel.

What you have described is a tax rate of approaching 68%. Was there no “personal allowance“ tax free element? I can’t imagine living in Brussels on £10k after tax.

 

[ovduk78]

What you have described is a tax rate of approaching 68%. Was there no “personal allowance“ tax free element? I can’t imagine living in Brussels on £10k after tax.

From memory the tax rate started at about 20% at around £10k and incrementally rose rapidly to 55% at around £28k. I was left with about £1k a month to live on.

 

[shmmeee]

Not enough chefs kisses

 

[MalcSB]

From memory the tax rate started at about 20% at around £10k and incrementally rose rapidly to 55% at around £28k. I was left with about £1k a month to live on.

That’s crazy.

 

[fernandopartridge]

On this been thinking that maybe we should have a hypothecated NHS tax that both removes it from the other taxes and makes it clear what we’re spending. Give or take National Insurance raises about the NHS budget. You could just rebrand it and make it universal like IT.

On the one hand people love the NHS and might be willing to pay explicitly for it to be better, on the other visible taxes are usually unpopular taxes so might end up reducing NHS public support.

I’m torn, would be interested in others views.

One of the potential issues with such a tax that makes the health service reliant on the state of the economy (assuming it would be paid as a % of income at source)

 

[fernandopartridge]

Not enough chefs kisses

Ironically, would any reasonable person want somebody like that living next door?

 

[Nick]

Ironically, would any reasonable person want somebody like that living next door?

Fuck them off to Rwanda.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

One of the potential issues with such a tax that makes the health service reliant on the state of the economy (assuming it would be paid as a % of income at source)

I'm increasingly thinking having employers have to provide healthcare for their employees would be something to seriously look at.

 

[Grendel]

I'm increasingly thinking having employers have to provide healthcare for their employees would be something to seriously look at.

Most employees would reject it due to cost