Do you want to discuss boring politics? (37 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

In any case, I don’t understand how people think the government will magically make inequality disappear by investing in the public services.

To use a rather simplistic view of economics, you raise living standard by growing the size of the pie rather than divvying up more equally. The same could be said of public services, if there’s no growth, there will be a need for perpetual tax raises just to maintain current levels of services rather than improving them.

Government spending money on public services = government spending money into the private sector, i.e. the pie.

The pie does not increase by any other means other than banks creating credit, which of course has to be repaid.

 

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[SBAndy]

Won't someone please think of the boomers with 60 buy to let properties, it's about time they had some luck go their way

Have they been forced to sell everything off or have they been asked to pay a bit more of the profit they make in tax? Hmmmm.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

£1262.85 better off milky bars on me too

Only £812 better off for me. Fucking Rachel Reeves

 

[Grendel]

I’m not saying it’s not hard

im saying its not necessary

 

[Sick Boy]

Thing is, it's just pure spite and jealousy isn't it?

No. That’s a narrative made up by certain sections of the UK press.

 

[Nick]

No. That’s a narrative made up by certain sections of the UK press.

It clearly is, you only have to see how people behave on here.

 

[SBAndy]

It clearly is, you only have to see how people behave on here.

Fuckin LOL.

 

[Nick]

Fuckin LOL.

OK so people aren't spiteful and jealous and the post I quoted with that isn't either.

 

[MalcSB]

You really should step out of these conversations. You think the cost of health and social care and pensions is close to putting an immigrant in a hotel

You do need to take account of the taxes paid and continuing to be paid by the indigenous population.

 

[MalcSB]

I assume all of you who are hundreds or thousands of pounds better off will donate that money to a worthy cause rather than squandering it on Milky Bars.

 

[shmmeee]

You do need to take account of the taxes paid and continuing to be paid by the indigenous population.

I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make here. Even if we kicked all the brown people out the country’s finances would still be fucked. This is about low growth, low tax, expensive public services particularly health. I know people don’t like seeing brown people but it doesn’t have to come up in every conversation.

 

[MalcSB]

We’re not getting anywhere are we?

Read this the other day on immigration vs house prices. I’m inclined to agree: Fuck nuance. This current situation has lead to more information about the impacts and causes of various issues but nothing ever seems to improve.

Exclusionary complexity.

So immigration has had an inflationary effect in house prices.

 

[MalcSB]

I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make here. Even if we kicked all the brown people out the country’s finances would still be fucked. This is about low growth, low tax, expensive public services particularly health. I know people don’t like seeing brown people but it doesn’t have to come up in every conversation.

Hang on, you were suggesting that the costs of health and social care and pensions was more than the costs associated with the asylum system. It’s fucking obvious the point I am making, that indigenous people (regardless of colour) have and continue to pay taxes whereas the asylum seekers haven’t and don't.

This is nothing about people not liking the sight of brown people.

 

[SBAndy]

OK so people aren't spiteful and jealous and the post I quoted with that isn't either.

A) By and large, no I don’t think they are. I think it’s fair comment that the system we’re now in, of which the ‘boomer’ generation have largely benefited, is completely unsustainable.

B) I was actually laughing at your use of others’ behaviour as a means of justifying your point when you jump on here like a rabid dog talking about the cost of illegal immigration at any given opportunity. I get it, but I must have missed the Budget policy on upgrading hotel stays for asylum seekers.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I assume all of you who are hundreds or thousands of pounds better off will donate that money to a worthy cause rather than squandering it on Milky Bars.

Yep my kids university accommodation

 

[Grendel]

A) By and large, no I don’t think they are. I think it’s fair comment that the system we’re now in, of which the ‘boomer’ generation have largely benefited, is completely unsustainable.

B) I was actually laughing at your use of others’ behaviour as a means of justifying your point when you jump on here like a rabid dog talking about the cost of illegal immigration at any given opportunity. I get it, but I must have missed the Budget policy on upgrading hotel stays for asylum seekers.

The boomer tag is just dumb to be honest.

 

[SBAndy]

The booker tag is just dumb to be honest.

Glad that’s your key takeaway.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Yeah yeah everything’s shit and nothing works. I know. That’s the story everywhere. So we’re fucked then? Or was there some obvious policy solution that’s been missed?

Labour promised 'growth' to be on the top of their agenda. How is that being achieved exactly?

I'm not a Labour voter myself, but if I was, I’d be disappointed as many Labour voters are saying to pollsters.

Government spending money on public services = government spending money into the private sector, i.e. the pie.

The pie does not increase by any other means other than banks creating credit, which of course has to be repaid.

How does that work out in your mind? The public sector has been growing significantly. Yet, their productivity is below expectations and of course economic growth is anaemic too. At best, the viewpoint you put forward is simplistic.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Labour promised 'growth' to be on the top of their agenda. How is that being achieved exactly?

I'm not a Labour voter myself, but if I was, I’d be disappointed as many Labour voters are saying to pollsters.



How does that work out in your mind? The public sector has been growing significantly. Yet, their productivity is below expectations and of course economic growth is anaemic too. At best, the viewpoint you put forward is simplistic.

How does shrinking the public sector grow the economy? You tell me as it is what you are suggesting will happen.

 

[Grendel]

Glad that’s your key takeaway.

Well it is. If I was conceived 12 weeks later apparently I’d be a Gen X so I asssume would be a victim rather than a beneficiary

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Hang on, you were suggesting that the costs of health and social care and pensions was more than the costs associated with the asylum system. It’s fucking obvious the point I am making, that indigenous people (regardless of colour) have and continue to pay taxes whereas the asylum seekers haven’t and don't.

This is nothing about people not liking the sight of brown people.

I think what he’s getting at is that certain people bring immigration up on literally every single topic discussed, like it’s a silver bullet and the only issue facing the country, and if there was no immigration they’d be living the high life. Even the very basic difference between an immigrant and an asylum seeker is misunderstood in some of these posts.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Well it is. If I was conceived 12 weeks later apparently I’d be a Gen X so I asssume would be a victim rather than a beneficiary

I’m generation X and I don’t feel like a ‘victim’, I see it as human nature at the time- if I was born earlier I’d probably have done just the same, we likely all would if we’re honest. It’s not a case of blaming and/or hating old people at all. What rankles is the refusal to accept that maybe things should change for the betterment of generations to come, as opposed to slamming the door on everyone else, continuing & protecting the flagrant self interest & then going around saying it’s the fault of the immigrants.

Yes, that’s a generalisation- but even going from here it seems to be a prevalent view.

 

[MalcSB]

Maybe the blame rests with the pre-boomer generation. They got to retire at 65/60, bought houses for even less than boomers did and would have maxed out under right to buy. Their private defined benefit pensions schemes would not have been overly affected by Brown’s tax grab, unlike boomers for whom the private defined benefit pension scheme disappeared.

 

[MalcSB]

I’m generation X and I don’t feel like a ‘victim’, I see it as human nature at the time- if I was born earlier I’d probably have done just the same, we likely all would if we’re honest. It’s not a case of blaming and/or hating old people at all. What rankles is the refusal to accept that maybe things should change for the betterment of generations to come, as opposed to slamming the door on everyone else, continuing & protecting the flagrant self interest & then going around saying it’s the fault of the immigrants.

Yes, that’s a generalisation- but even going from here it seems to be a prevalent view.

How do we do that, then?

 

[Nick]

A) By and large, no I don’t think they are. I think it’s fair comment that the system we’re now in, of which the ‘boomer’ generation have largely benefited, is completely unsustainable.

B) I was actually laughing at your use of others’ behaviour as a means of justifying your point when you jump on here like a rabid dog talking about the cost of illegal immigration at any given opportunity. I get it, but I must have missed the Budget policy on upgrading hotel stays for asylum seekers.

I'm sure you can see the difference between the 2 situations.

No doubt boomer is up there with "gammon".

 

[Nick]

I think what he’s getting at is that certain people bring immigration up on literally every single topic discussed, like it’s a silver bullet and the only issue facing the country, and if there was no immigration they’d be living the high life. Even the very basic difference between an immigrant and an asylum seeker is misunderstood in some of these posts.

Maybe because it's a fairly big issue so it's discussed when it's to do with politics.

Still, the fucking OAP bastards who worked hard. They are probably all racists too.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

How does shrinking the public sector grow the economy? You tell me as it is what you are suggesting will happen.

No, you made the claim that putting money into the public sector grows the private sector.

If that was true, with government spending and the number of public sector workers at its highest… where is the growth? Why is our tax burden the highest it’s been? The current environment undermines that central point you made.

Public services are delivering less and less (measured by productivity) whilst costing more and more. Who’s footing the bill? Primarily the private sector.

 

[PVA]

Maybe because it's a fairly big issue so it's discussed when it's to do with politics.

Still, the fucking OAP bastards who worked hard. They are probably all racists too.

You keep missing the point.

Nobody is saying OAPs didn't work hard, the point is that people can work just as hard today and not receive the same benefits and opportunities.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Maybe the blame rests with the pre-boomer generation. They got to retire at 65/60, bought houses for even less than boomers did and would have maxed out under right to buy. Their private defined benefit pensions schemes would not have been overly affected by Brown’s tax grab, unlike boomers for whom the private defined benefit pension scheme disappeared.

first off, if the desire is to discuss rationally, perhaps the word “blame” should be removed from all this. And yes, undoubtedly this isn’t some masterplan that boomers came up with off their own backs, like I said this has been a long time building.

 

[Nick]

You keep missing the point.

Nobody is saying OAPs didn't work hard, the point is that people can work just as hard today and not receive the same benefits and opportunities.

Yes I know this. I'm pointing out that its fair game to give it the boomers stuff and be happy they might get taxed more or be worse off but if you mention the benefits somebody who illegally enters the country gets and what they cost to the tax payer it's irrelevant?

That's why I asked about the cost to the tax payer stuff compared to an OAP. Could compare that to a 20 year old on living wage too?

 

[MalcSB]

first off, if the desire is to discuss rationally, perhaps the word “blame” should be removed from all this. And yes, undoubtedly this isn’t some masterplan that boomers came up with off their own backs, like I said this has been a long time building.

I don’t disagree, but it certainly feels like boomers are being blamed.TBH it’s pretty counter productive and will end up with boomers becoming ultra defensive.

 

[Nick]

I don’t disagree, but it certainly feels like boomers are being blamed.

They are in this thread.

 

[shmmeee]

So immigration has had an inflationary effect in house prices.

Probably? Maybe? And that’s the thing. I went off after the convo on here looking for data and found that. The point is you can find nuance to anything to the point you just end up saying nothing. Yeah probably immigration causes house price rises, yeah probably planning regulation is stifling growth, yeah probably lack of investment is screwing us, yeah probably taxes need to go up. But we’ve got such a wealth of data and comment pieces and a million ways to slice everything and add another data point in that were just endlessly talking around things.

Every tax person I follow post about any change to tax about how it probably won’t work or will hit the wrong people. But never say what would work. Seems easy to endlessly find potential second order effects for whatever position you want to take.

Maybe we have had enough of experts? It just seems the last decade at least everything seems to be shit and getting worse and the expert opinion is there’s no reversing it. That may be the case but as a future optimist progressive i have a real problem accept we’re at the end of history.

 

[shmmeee]

I don’t disagree, but it certainly feels like boomers are being blamed.

Boomers are blamed cos they’ve been the biggest voting block their entire life. They are baby boomers after all so there’s more of them than any other generation. So if anyone is to blame it’s them as the people the politicians work for.

 

[fernandopartridge]

No, you made the claim that putting money into the public sector grows the private sector.

If that was true, with government spending and the number of public sector workers at its highest… where is the growth? Why is our tax burden the highest it’s been? The current environment undermines that central point you made.

Public services are delivering less and less (measured by productivity) whilst costing more and more. Who’s footing the bill? Primarily the private sector.

It doesn't at all. As soon as the public sector spends money, either through paying somebody a salary, or paying a supplier, it is putting money into the private sector. That is an indisputable fact. If the government reduces the amount of money the public sector spends, it reduces money in the private sector.

What productivity measure are you using?

You have to accept that in an ageing population, you are always going to spend more and more on public services to serve the needs of those older people. It pretty much mean that public spending will increase in real terms year on year.