Do you want to discuss boring politics? (70 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Pete]

Ifs which is a socialist organisation is pleased with the budget
Also can someone tell the socialists in the Labour Party that according to many pundits this budget was a socialist budget

 

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[Gynnsthetonic]

Yep the same. Mum and dad between them never had tradesmen because they couldnt afford them. Tehy painted, wallpapered, learnt basic electrics and plumbing. The only thing dad wont touch is gas, but that's ok because we couldn't afford central heating! Second hand clothes or passed down from my brother a lot of the time too. We had underwear and shoes new that was pretty much it as kids.

Yes my brother 7 years older than me was born in 65, I had his hand me downs, I was going to school in an old sherpa coat when everyone else had trendy snorkel parkas and I was riding around on a battered old Raleigh Chopper whilst all my mates had the new Raleigh Grifters. I sound like Peter Kay I know

 

[fernandopartridge]

Yep the same. Mum and dad between them never had tradesmen because they couldnt afford them. Tehy painted, wallpapered, learnt basic electrics and plumbing. The only thing dad wont touch is gas, but that's ok because we couldn't afford central heating! Second hand clothes or passed down from my brother a lot of the time too. We had underwear and shoes new that was pretty much it as kids.

If it wasn't for much easier availability of credit, would people be much better off today?

Worth remembering too that the fast fashion of today is only relatively recent

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

In any case, I don’t understand how people think the government will magically make inequality disappear by investing in the public services.

To use a rather simplistic view of economics, you raise living standard by growing the size of the pie rather than divvying up more equally. The same could be said of public services, if there’s no growth, there will be a need for perpetual tax raises just to maintain current levels of services rather than improving them.

Well, no.

If the pie increases by 5% but a tiny proportion of people are taking an extra 10% of pie, the majority of people get less pie.

Whereas if you have the same size pie and divide it more equally, a small amount of people have less pie (but still a lot of pie) whilst the majority of people get more pie.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Yep the same. Mum and dad between them never had tradesmen because they couldnt afford them. Tehy painted, wallpapered, learnt basic electrics and plumbing. The only thing dad wont touch is gas, but that's ok because we couldn't afford central heating! Second hand clothes or passed down from my brother a lot of the time too. We had underwear and shoes new that was pretty much it as kids.

Cosmetic stuff like decorating yeah but be careful with plumbing and electrics. If you don't get it inspected and you aren't qualified you invalidate insurance if you have a leak/fire. And if you've got to pay for it to be inspected you may as well just pay a tradesperson.

Don't forget nowadays most electric appliances have closed plugs cos you're not even supposed to re-wire a plug unless you've done the course...

And if everyone started doing all this stuff by themselves what are we going to do with the large number of now unemployed plumbers and electricians?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Oops imf

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It does and I get it. I have a huge mortgage despite decent household income, I'm just not prepared to slag off the old because they won the born at the right time lottery. In fact it seems most on here think similarly in terms being fortunate where we are born so no idea why that doesn't translate to when and be happy for them rather than bitter or jealous.

|But you are prepared to slag off the young because they were born at the wrong time lottery. Cos netflix, coffee, avocado, i-phones...

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Well, no.

If the pie increases by 5% but a tiny proportion of people are taking an extra 10% of pie, the majority of people get less pie.

Whereas if you have the same size pie and divide it more equally, a small amount of people have less pie (but still a lot of pie) whilst the majority of people get more pie.

Yeah, but that isn’t happening is it? The government isn’t redistributing wealth directly from ‘x’ group to ‘y’.

The resources are distributed via public services. So it relies on the tax revenues raised by the government.

Now, the assumption is that tax increases lead to more tax receipts. Which isn’t always the case. To demonstrate this, I’ll use two recent examples. 1) when Osborne cut corporation tax from 30% to 19%, tax revenues increased by a third. 2) Italy introduced a ‘flat rate’ of top tax of €200,000 per year and this is increasing the amount of wealthy people to reside there to pay tax to Italy and of course other taxes like VAT and so forth.

Meanwhile, 6,000 millionaires left the UK, the only country to have more capital flight is China. Bearing in the top 10% of tax payers make up about 60% of tax receipts, you need high value individuals. Therefore, intelligent policy should be attracting these people, not deterring them.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Oops imf

If only the OBR agreed…

 

[fernandopartridge]

I think retail is brilliant for the young and I would encourage all of them to try it. I'm currently trying to persuade my daughter who is in sixth form to apply. Most won't want to forge a career in retailing, some will, but it's such a grounding for so many other jobs.

Apart from simple appreciation of work and responsibility, you have invaluable customer interaction, learn about cash, ledgers, stock replenishment, teamwork, sales, ordering, pricing, budgeting, margins so, so much at such a low introductory. It's like a small taster of everything. If the worst you get out of it is 'I never want to do any of that again' then it has still been invaluable.

Loved working in a shop TBF, would happily do a job like that without all the pretense, bullshit and obtusity of working in a 'professional' job, just it doesn't pay the mortgage.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

 

[duffer]

Yeah, but that isn’t happening is it? The government isn’t redistributing wealth directly from ‘x’ group to ‘y’.

The resources are distributed via public services. So it relies on the tax revenues raised by the government.

Now, the assumption is that tax increases lead to more tax receipts. Which isn’t always the case. To demonstrate this, I’ll use two recent examples. 1) when Osborne cut corporation tax from 30% to 19%, tax revenues increased by a third. 2) Italy introduced a ‘flat rate’ of top tax of €200,000 per year and this is increasing the amount of wealthy people to reside there to pay tax to Italy and of course other taxes like VAT and so forth.

Meanwhile, 6,000 millionaires left the UK, the only country to have more capital flight is China. Bearing in the top 10% of tax payers make up about 60% of tax receipts, you need high value individuals. Therefore, intelligent policy should be attracting these people, not deterring them.

Can't find any evidence that Corporation tax cuts either improved revenue or led to increased growth.

Similarly, no official evidence I can find of capital flight, and no detailed overview of impacts on revenue. Do you have any links from independent analysis?

My personal opinion is that this is a bit of a myth that very rich people would like you to believe.

One thing that can't be disputed is that the very rich have got significantly richer, and services for the rest of us (and in some cases even life expectancy) has got worse.

The solution would appear to be, at least in part, redistribution, but also an acceptance that good services cost money. I wouldn't start by cutting WFA and raising bus fares by 50% though...

 

[Grendel]

The difference I can see is that there is a clear qualifying requirement to have paid in at least 10 years NICs for minimal pension and 35 years for full, so there is a form of contract there. AFAIK there is no qualifying contribution period for other benefits.

Exactly

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The difference I can see is that there is a clear qualifying requirement to have paid in at least 10 years NICs for minimal pension and 35 years for full, so there is a form of contract there. AFAIK there is no qualifying contribution period for other benefits.

Genuine question: how were the state pensions funded in the beginning years of the program?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Yeah, but that isn’t happening is it? The government isn’t redistributing wealth directly from ‘x’ group to ‘y’.

The resources are distributed via public services. So it relies on the tax revenues raised by the government.

Now, the assumption is that tax increases lead to more tax receipts. Which isn’t always the case. To demonstrate this, I’ll use two recent examples. 1) when Osborne cut corporation tax from 30% to 19%, tax revenues increased by a third. 2) Italy introduced a ‘flat rate’ of top tax of €200,000 per year and this is increasing the amount of wealthy people to reside there to pay tax to Italy and of course other taxes like VAT and so forth.

Meanwhile, 6,000 millionaires left the UK, the only country to have more capital flight is China. Bearing in the top 10% of tax payers make up about 60% of tax receipts, you need high value individuals. Therefore, intelligent policy should be attracting these people, not deterring them.

Well that would be if you think the only legislation that can be passed is tax-based, and you can't make changes to affect behaviour to result in a fairer distribution of income.

And we always get this 10% of people make up 60% of the tax receipts. Failing to mention that those 10% get over 75% of the income, so are in fact underpaying.

 

[rob9872]

|But you are prepared to slag off the young because they were born at the wrong time lottery. Cos netflix, coffee, avocado, i-phones...

Except I've not slagged them off or blamed them for any of the things levelled at the old. And I don't believe they were born at the wrong time because housing situation apart, they have it easier than before. So many rights and protections, none of which I'm advocating against btw but the only hardship I see is house ownership and if there's a will, then over time there is nothing to say that can't change.

 

[rob9872]

Cosmetic stuff like decorating yeah but be careful with plumbing and electrics. If you don't get it inspected and you aren't qualified you invalidate insurance if you have a leak/fire. And if you've got to pay for it to be inspected you may as well just pay a tradesperson.

Don't forget nowadays most electric appliances have closed plugs cos you're not even supposed to re-wire a plug unless you've done the course...

And if everyone started doing all this stuff by themselves what are we going to do with the large number of now unemployed plumbers and electricians?

I said in the post 'parents' who had the choice of do it themselves or not at all. No tradesman missed out as they couldnt afford to pay someone else. There wasn't the legislation you're mentioning now in the 70s and 80s.

 

[MalcSB]

Genuine question: how were the state pensions funded in the beginning years of the program?

I’m not that old!

 

[MalcSB]

Genuine question: how were the state pensions funded in the beginning years of the program?

Did you know…..the history of the State Pension? - Birchwood Investment Management

What do Annie Lennox, singer songwriter, Sam Allardyce, football manager and Ken Stott, actor all have in common? Answer, they all expect to start receiving their State Pension this year at age 66. The State Pension age is the earliest

www.birchwoodinvestment.com

 

[MalcSB]

Well that would be if you think the only legislation that can be passed is tax-based, and you can't make changes to affect behaviour to result in a fairer distribution of income.

And we always get this 10% of people make up 60% of the tax receipts. Failing to mention that those 10% get over 75% of the income, so are in fact underpaying.

Except that’s incorrect. The top 20% get 36% of the income. So by your logic they are overpaying.

 

[shmmeee]

Except that’s incorrect. The top 20% get 36% of the income. So by your logic they are overpaying.

Where did you find that? I was looking for income share before and couldn’t find anything.

 

[MalcSB]

Where did you find that? I was looking for income share before and couldn’t find anything.

The Scale of Economic Inequality in the UK - Equality Trust

The UK has very high inequality of income compared to other developed countries. The UK's wealth inequality is much more severe than income inequality.

equalitytrust.org.uk

 

[shmmeee]

The Scale of Economic Inequality in the UK - Equality Trust

The UK has very high inequality of income compared to other developed countries. The UK's wealth inequality is much more severe than income inequality.

equalitytrust.org.uk

Cheers.

Annoying it doesn’t give a decent figure, it interesting the top 1% income share is double other places and peaked at about 14% even if its say 12% that’s a third of the top quintile just in the top 1% and the other 19% with about 20-ish% give or take.

I would say this cos I’m in that 2-20% bracket, but feels like we’ve got a lot of people on shit pay, a few in OK pay mostly in London, and then a tiny amount actually earning way more.

Apparently we are particularly low tax for middle earners compared to most countries I read somewhere. Raising tax is probably a case of raising everyone a bit than soaking a few.

I still think the NHS distorts things. If you called it medical insurance and charged it separately I wonder how much you’d take off the “tax” bill. I suspect we’d look like a very low tax country at that point. Really hard argument to make of course but ironically if my theory holds the NHS is actually the most powerful force for conservatism and low taxes. Just a random morning thought.

 

[MalcSB]

Oops imf

Don’t they have a bit of history of getting it badly wrong.

The actual IFS are less keen.

 

[MalcSB]

Cheers.

Annoying it doesn’t give a decent figure, it interesting the top 1% income share is double other places and peaked at about 14% even if its say 12% that’s a third of the top quintile just in the top 1% and the other 19% with about 20-ish% give or take.

I would say this cos I’m in that 2-20% bracket, but feels like we’ve got a lot of people on shit pay, a few in OK pay mostly in London, and then a tiny amount actually earning way more.

Apparently we are particularly low tax for middle earners compared to most countries I read somewhere. Raising tax is probably a case of raising everyone a bit than soaking a few.

I still think the NHS distorts things. If you called it medical insurance and charged it separately I wonder how much you’d take off the “tax” bill. I suspect we’d look like a very low tax country at that point. Really hard argument to make of course but ironically if my theory holds the NHS is actually the most powerful force for conservatism and low taxes. Just a random morning thought.

How public spending was calculated in your tax summary

www.gov.uk

Shows health spending at £211bn or 19.8% of total.

It shows social protection excluding state pensions at twice as much as state pensions. Does that mean that logically those who say the latter isn’t affordable for the future due to shrinking workforce should also accept that the rest of the benefit system isn't affordable either?

 

[shmmeee]

How public spending was calculated in your tax summary

www.gov.uk

Shows health spending at £211bn or 19.8% of total.

It shows social protection excluding state pensions at twice as much as state pensions. Does that mean that logically those who say the latter isn’t affordable for the future due to shrinking workforce should also accept that the rest of the benefit system isn't affordable either?

Problem with pensions is the number of pensioners to workers. Same would be true for anything else. Has the figure changed for disability or unemployment? The latter I don’t think so. The former maybe post pandemic?

 

[rob9872]

Problem with pensions is the number of pensioners to workers. Same would be true for anything else. Has the figure changed for disability or unemployment? The latter I don’t think so. The former maybe post pandemic?

Bloody medical science saving our parents and making our kids 'poor'

 

[shmmeee]

Bloody medical science saving our parents and making our kids 'poor'

It’s lumpy though isn’t it? Office working wealthy people are living longer and enjoying extended retirements in good health, others aren’t. I don’t know how you fix it. We’ve got 70 year olds running for the most important and demanding job on the planet, and 80 year olds who seem just as capable as when they were 50, but still many people doing jobs that are impossible to do past 60 or by that time have wrought too much damage in the body.

The baby boom isn’t coming back, so the population pyramid stays inverted. The welfare state and political settlement generally was built on the next generation living longer being richer and being more populous than the last and a lot of that isn’t true any more.

Barring some huge advances in automated health and social care that brings the cost right down in not sure what you do. Pensions really is small fry compared to say Alzheimer’s care.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Bloody medical science saving our parents and making our kids 'poor'

And systematically wiping out the NHS so those same kids have to either pay an arm & a leg to go private, or just go without

 

[shmmeee]

Maybe the answer is ChatGPT automates all our jobs and we work for the state funded by robotax looking after old people?

 

[rob9872]

And systematically wiping out the NHS so those same kids have to either pay an arm & a leg to go private, or just go without

I thought that was the Tory govt you blamed for that. Choose a side.

 

[shmmeee]

I thought that was the Tory govt you blamed for that. Choose a side.

The Tory govt elected by boomers. Keep up.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Maybe the answer is ChatGPT automates all our jobs and we work for the state funded by robotax looking after old people?

a good combination of ChatGPT, Gemini & Copilot gets a big chunk of mine done already.. I’m not sure whether people genuinely realise what an existential threat AI is to jobs. Fascinating & amazing yet simultaneously scary, when you get the right prompts and watch as it does in about 2 seconds what would take people a couple of hours minimum you realise where it’s all headed.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I thought that was the Tory govt you blamed for that. Choose a side.

You may as well stop with the politics, I’ve no skin in the game and I don’t care about any of them. The point is that you stated that housing is the only issue facing the next generations, which is blatantly untrue.

 

[shmmeee]

a good combination of ChatGPT, Gemini & Copilot gets a big chunk of mine done already.. I’m not sure whether people genuinely realise what an existential threat AI is to jobs. Fascinating & amazing yet simultaneously scary, when you get the right prompts and watch as it does in about 2 seconds what would take people a couple of hours minimum you realise where it’s all headed.

We’re still some way off AGI despite the hype. But we may not need it for a lot of work. My productivity has easily doubled since LLMs existed, but I use that gain to post on here at the moment Once businesses figure out they only need half of us… Unless of course the managers are doing the same

 

[Grendel]

You may as well stop with the politics, I’ve no skin in the game and I don’t care about any of them. The point is that you stated that housing is the only issue facing the next generations, which is blatantly untrue.

Perhaps we should bring back Covid and cull some old people to ease the burden.