MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Can’t disagree with your last sentence. However, Labour set themselves out as being ”different” and are showing that to be bollocks.
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (40 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Let’s be clear Malcolm, you are past the point of no return. I doubt they could do anything at this stage to change your mind.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Giving Starmer the boot would be a start. Even Mrs Malc would like to slap his face, and she is the nicest person I know!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
What does the party need to do to win you over? Genuine question
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Giving Starmer the boot would be a start. Even Mrs Malc would like to slap his face, and she is the nicest person I know!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Yeah that’s not an answer
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Well, it is an answer.
There is almost certainly nothing else they could do which would even remotely placate me, let alone win me over.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Assisted dying bill passed which is excellent
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Well, at least you’re honest.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that even if that were to happen and a new leader came in, you'd instantly find a reason to complain about them, regardless of who it was.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
@SIR ERNIE what’s your concern?
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
i think I share what, IIRC, was Streeting’s concern about the current state of social and end of life/ palliative care. Allow it to be bad enough and people may take task the assisted dying option. I’m not sure if they are going to allow the “living will” type of advance direction which I think they allow in Holland. Without it, this option won’t be available for people with, say, dementia.
People may not wish to suffer the indignities of dementia, or could have another terminal disease, say a cancer, which is causing them significant pain and distress. I haven’t read the bill in detail though.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Entirely possible, I guess it would depend if they seemed sincere with a clear and fixed set of principles, unlike Starmer who has seemed to lack clarity and has flipped and flopped somewhat.
Preferably someone who wasn’t at the beer and curry session (sorry, don’t see that as any different to Boris not eating cake) or who hasn’t been accused of playing fast and loose with right to buy rules. Or lied in their cv. Or been a lhuman rights lawyer. Preferably someone who has done a working class job.
Anyone whose surname begins with Milli, no thank you very much.
Its hard to think of anyone really, they all seem so anonymous compared with politicians of the past.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
They're not allowing anything like that. In fact the whole thing seems very performative and likely to be of little practical use.
First off it only applies to people of sound mind at the point it's all being arranged so that rules out any type of dementia. You have to have a diagnosis of 6 months or less to live. Once you meet that criteria you have to have two independent doctors sign off on it. Get all that sorted and you then have to get it authorised by a judge.
How many people are going to be able to meet all those criteria and get everything organised within six months.
My Dads care review was due about 18 months ago, no sign of it happening anytime soon as they are massively backlogged. Where is the capacity for this coming from?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Feels like something watered down enough to get through parliament.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Yep you’re correct it’s very stringent and doesn’t go as far as many campaigners would like
I share that concern but still think it’s a humane decision
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
It’s a tentative first step taking into account the sanctity of human life for me and wishing to learn from other countries who’ve run before they could walk
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Been asked this by a so called friend
Am I in complete denials??
Pete Griffiths I do not think k you are ready to discuss that - you are too much in denial of fact.
My question was a lot more specific.
I have spoken at length with people that have experienced violent revolution, but this has all been after the fact, which gives a very different perspective.
I am genuinely interested in those that purposefully enable such events to occur.
I obviously cannot find common ground with a person dedicated to destruction of my home country, but I do at least have access to your thought process, perception and motivations.
This is a genuine interest.
At this stage, we hate are feeling about the erosion of human rights for U.K. citizens? Is it denial? Are you actually cheering for “the far right bad guys to get punished”?
What motivates you? Do you need to feel accepted by those that dictate opinion and those that subscribe to it?
For example, in the context of this post. This is clearly a piece of propaganda designed to galvanise opinion against anyone who speaks against immigration.
The comments in response are extremely interesting.
What do you feel in this process? Is it a euphoric belonging to a morally superior ideology? Is it pure hatred against those who dare to view immigration as an issue?
How far will go in the punishment of those who hold different opinions to you?
We already have political prisoners on this point. Not the rioters obviously, but innocent people are literally locked up in prisons run by Islamic terrorist gangs because they posted on social media that they do not want a country dominated by Islamic terrorist gangs?
Do you feel empathy toward them? Do you feel that their fear of the reality they see unfolding leads them to deserve to live an extreme version of that hell?
On that point, when you see the instruments of the law and judiciary abused by political ideology and corruption, do you understand that this is dangerous line that should not be crossed, or are you shouting “kill the bastards, they deserve it?”
I really want a pre-fucked perspective from an instigator. Genuinely interesting.
It is important and interesting, because the after the fact conversations will be very different.
What can you share?
Am I in complete denials??
Pete Griffiths I do not think k you are ready to discuss that - you are too much in denial of fact.
My question was a lot more specific.
I have spoken at length with people that have experienced violent revolution, but this has all been after the fact, which gives a very different perspective.
I am genuinely interested in those that purposefully enable such events to occur.
I obviously cannot find common ground with a person dedicated to destruction of my home country, but I do at least have access to your thought process, perception and motivations.
This is a genuine interest.
At this stage, we hate are feeling about the erosion of human rights for U.K. citizens? Is it denial? Are you actually cheering for “the far right bad guys to get punished”?
What motivates you? Do you need to feel accepted by those that dictate opinion and those that subscribe to it?
For example, in the context of this post. This is clearly a piece of propaganda designed to galvanise opinion against anyone who speaks against immigration.
The comments in response are extremely interesting.
What do you feel in this process? Is it a euphoric belonging to a morally superior ideology? Is it pure hatred against those who dare to view immigration as an issue?
How far will go in the punishment of those who hold different opinions to you?
We already have political prisoners on this point. Not the rioters obviously, but innocent people are literally locked up in prisons run by Islamic terrorist gangs because they posted on social media that they do not want a country dominated by Islamic terrorist gangs?
Do you feel empathy toward them? Do you feel that their fear of the reality they see unfolding leads them to deserve to live an extreme version of that hell?
On that point, when you see the instruments of the law and judiciary abused by political ideology and corruption, do you understand that this is dangerous line that should not be crossed, or are you shouting “kill the bastards, they deserve it?”
I really want a pre-fucked perspective from an instigator. Genuinely interesting.
It is important and interesting, because the after the fact conversations will be very different.
What can you share?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Zarah was against
In fact all the Coventry mps did and the kenilworth Tory
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
I suppose he has accrued quite a lot of air miles in three months.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
This is all very cosy isn't it
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Which prisons are run by Islamic terrorist gangs?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
There’s a high percentage of Islamic prisoners in the one Stephen Yaxley is in isn’t there
Had a really interesting discussion with a prisoner over fasting yesterday. It’s so hard to not have a binary opinion about things. All staff are honest and all prisoners are not I mean.
More and more it’s fundamentalism that is the danger and not atheism or Islam or socialism.
Anyway am I deluded. Am I a colluder? Will people look at me in 2060 and say they couldn’t believe good people allowed this to happen
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
No. People have had their brains fried by social media. I think we are more likely to look back and wonder what the hell we were thinking allowing it to run rife.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Possibly Pete.
You are obviously well meaning and put in a lot of your own time for what you see as the benefit of society. Unfortunately, as a bit of a cynic, there will be people who will take advantage of your good nature. Always seeing the good in people must be a nice trait to have.
Discussion on some topics is stilted and shut down. No discussion can be had about immigration without accusations 9f racism being levelled at opponents. I suppose being concerned about immigration is almost by definition going to be a concern about the ethnic make up of this country being changed - which I guess is a form of racism.
We could easily sleep walk in to a situation that the vast majority wouldn’t want to find themselves in. People at that point may not be terribly forgiving,
Edit “bit of a cynic”
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I don’t think we’ve sleepwalked. I think the last Labour and Conservative government were explicitly pro mass immigration. Labour from the EU and the Tories ten times as much from Asia and Africa. I think it’s fairly obvious the baseline for Starmer to win re election will be progress in immigration. I think he’s worried it’s Farage next otherwise. Democracy in action.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Whitemoor had a particular problem with lots of people converting and the staff didn’t know how to handle it or them
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I think we’ve moved on million people is too manyPossibly Pete.
You are obviously well meaning and put in a lot of your own time for what you see as the benefit of society. Unfortunately, as a bit of a cynic, there will be people who will take advantage of your good nature. Always seeing the good in people must be a nice trait to have.
Discussion on some topics is stilted and shut down. No discussion can be had about immigration without accusations 9f racism being levelled at opponents. I suppose being concerned about immigration is almost by definition going to be a concern about the ethnic make up of this country being changed - which I guess is a form of racism.
We could easily sleep walk in to a situation that the vast majority wouldn’t want to find themselves in. People at that point may not be terribly forgiving,
Edit “bit of a cynic”
and it’s not racist to say so
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
I think the people have sleepwalked, the focus has been on the people arriving by boat which is a drop in the ocean compared with the overall numbers.
I don’t fully understand the contribution of overseas students to the numbers, I would have expected x number to arrive at the start of courses and y number to leave at the end.
Targeted immigration - e.g, for staff for healthcare - is probably necessary although things should be put in place to “grow our own”. That is things like bursaries, free tuition etc with the quid pro quo being a contractual requirement to work in the NHS for a specified period.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
That’s absolutely right the boats are a drop in the ocean
Please tell Farage and tice
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Uni problem is lots of people coming on student visa the. Disappearing it basically working and their uni leaving them to it for the cash I think. “Deliveroo Visa Mill” is a phrase I’ve heard.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
How do we get back to 'grown up' politics for lack of a better phrase? If you catch old footage on BBC Parliament its night and day from what we have now despite being not that many years ago.
There was an interview with Kinnock a few months back and to massively paraphrase he was saying you would hugely disagree with other parties but you could have a proper discussion with them and you felt they believed in what they were saying. We're a long way from that now.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
There needs to be a grown up discussion not just here but in Europe and probably further afield about what we are going to do. If you look past the shouting about small boats the percentage of asylum applications that are approved is very high.
So if you want to get numbers down you have to have a conversation about limiting the number of people genuinely in need. That number is going to increase massively in the coming years with global warming, will cause huge displacement.
Uni's are already having financial issues with lower numbers of overseas students coming in, we've created a huge problem for ourselves. As for getting people back out at the end one of the things put forward by our local unis as a huge plus with overseas students is that they stay here on completion of their courses and fill jobs.
We have to make jobs like healthcare attractive to people from our own country. We're bringing in huge numbers because nobody wants to do the work, and if you bring people in to do the jobs you have to let them bring their families or they won't come.
Having seen the conditions that some immigrant workers live and work in its no surprise to me that British people won't do the same. See very little conversation around changing that side of things. If anything the opposite, the second any improvement in workers pay or conditions is mentioned people come out against it.
On the BBC doc about immigration it was interesting that talking about the last 14 years it was quite openly said by those involved that they latched on to the immigration issue as they saw it was a vote winner but behind the scenes were very much pro immigration.
At one point it was said that everyone would line up and agree with the net immigration figure then the second the doors were closed would start lobbying for exemptions to any tighter rules for their department as they knew they'd be fucked otherwise.
SBAndy
Well-Known Member
See this is why I don’t put you (or, indeed, anyone) on ignore. Agree with pretty much all of that.
Re the ‘small boats’ - the fact that has become front and centre of the anti-immigration argument has consistently been a nonsense. If we reduced that to zero then it’s not like it cures all our societal ills. Don’t get me wrong, clearly there’s an issue that needs dealing with but my stance has always been a properly functioning and efficient asylum system is the answer. At the moment, whilst there will be a significant number genuinely fleeing persecution, the fact others will know they get dumped in a hotel will see it as an opportunity to disappear into the black economy.
Visa overstays another issue. As far as I’m aware we basically gave up policing it for a good while - no idea if the approach has changed. Sick Boy previously wrote a bit on the Italian approach being far more ‘strict’ but again not sure if that’s still the case given the issues they’ve faced.
And we absolutely have to incentivise people to enter certain sectors of the workforce. My one thought, however, is that given we have a falling birth rate and therefore will likely continue to be reliant on migrant labour, does it work to our advantage (I’m using that word loosely) to have continued target sectors rather than a more generalist approach?
SBAndy
Well-Known Member
Also the fallacy of the segment of society banging on about reducing foreign aid budgets; the idea of such things is to encourage the indigenous population of beneficiary countries to stay where they are. Appreciate on a practical level there can be misappropriation of funds but not sure it can be fully resolved to ensure all funds reach the intended ‘destination’.