Explosions at Manchester Arena (3 Viewers)

[Liquid Gold]

The Saudis spend a hell of a lot of money opening madrassas in poor parts of the muslim world. Madrassas are basically like a boarding school where people who can't afford to bring their kids up send them to get an education. As a system it's existed for hundreds of years and the kids are supposed to become imams and the like. The saudis madrassas however have a curriculum of strict Wahhabi dogma that radicalises impressionable young people with no other sources of information. These are the people that then become foot soldiers for terrorist organisations and spread the ideology globally when they graduate.

 

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[CJ_covblaze]

Heartwarming tonight to see a few City fans in their shirts with their United mates both outside and inside the ground. The Ajax fans too were superb. The whole event felt like it was about more than football. Similar to the France game at Wembley 18 months ago.

 

[ccfc92]

Heartwarming tonight to see a few City fans in their shirts with their United mates both outside and inside the ground. The Ajax fans too were superb. The whole event felt like it was about more than football. Similar to the France game at Wembley 18 months ago.

Take it, it was all okay there tonight CJ?

 

[Nick]

What I don't get is when you think about hooligans they have to hand their passport in and everything. Why are people allowed to just go abroad and be even more brainwashed?

Surely anybody "known to authorities" for terrorism shouldn't be allowed to freely travel?

 

[ccfc92]

What I don't get is when you think about hooligans they have to hand their passport in and everything. Why are people allowed to just go abroad and be even more brainwashed?

Surely anybody "known to authorities" for terrorism shouldn't be allowed to freely travel?

Or at least tracked. Why aren't passports scanned at any border? You could go from France to Turkey on land, but you should need your passport scanned on the way surely?

 

[Nick]

Or at least tracked. Why aren't passports scanned at any border? You could go from France to Turkey on land, but you should need your passport scanned on the way surely?

Of course if people really want to then they will get smuggled out of the country etc and there are ways around it but why is it always "yes, they have been to syria / turkey etc".

If people are known to authorities they shouldn't be going anywhere, or they should be collected from the airport on their return or rejected entry to the country.

I get that everybody under suspicion can't be followed / bugged etc but how is it possible for all of the attacks to end up being by people "known".

 

[ccfc92]

Of course if people really want to then they will get smuggled out of the country etc and there are ways around it but why is it always "yes, they have been to syria / turkey etc".

If people are known to authorities they shouldn't be going anywhere, or they should be collected from the airport on their return or rejected entry to the country.

I get that everybody under suspicion can't be followed / bugged etc but how is it possible for all of the attacks to end up being by people "known".

I know, it's frustrating. I don't know the answer unfortunately. There was a girl I worked with, who was from Syria (apart from her features, you wouldn't have known due to English accent etc) but my point is, how do you determine who's visiting family there (I know it's not exactly a top holiday destination) and who's going there for Jihadi training etc?

 

[CJ_covblaze]

Take it, it was all okay there tonight CJ?

All good. Not a hint of trouble or of any other incident. Before kick off I asked the United and Ajax fans that were sat near us if they objected to me putting my flag out and they wanted pics taken with it together along with locals and myself. Completely different atmosphere to Liverpool/Sevilla last year. Trip has been ace. Just got an 1100km drive to the airport now!

 

[CJ_covblaze]

Or at least tracked. Why aren't passports scanned at any border? You could go from France to Turkey on land, but you should need your passport scanned on the way surely?

Travelled down to Italy and Switzerland (through 7 and 6 countries respectively) on numerous occasions and quite often haven't had to show my passport until I got back to the UK. Didn't even get checked when I left Dover or arriving in Dunkirk or Calais. Don't think I've ever not been checked on the way back in though.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

All good. Not a hint of trouble or of any other incident. Before kick off I asked the United and Ajax fans that were sat near us if they objected to me putting my flag out and they wanted pics taken with it together along with locals and myself. Completely different atmosphere to Liverpool/Sevilla last year. Trip has been ace. Just got an 1100km drive to the airport now!

Oh, you went Ryanair, did you? )

 

[Liquid Gold]

Even if we take no action against the source of his ideology then the first thing you need to look at is why are the police being defunded. Police chiefs have been saying it will affect their ability to combat terrorism for 18 months or so now.

 

[Monners]

Even if we take no action against the source of his ideology then the first thing you need to look at is why are the police being defunded. Police chiefs have been saying it will affect their ability to combat terrorism for 18 months or so now.

Yep. Money spent on Trident is better used elsewhere in regards to protecting the UK.

 

[shmmeee]

Of course if people really want to then they will get smuggled out of the country etc and there are ways around it but why is it always "yes, they have been to syria / turkey etc".

If people are known to authorities they shouldn't be going anywhere, or they should be collected from the airport on their return or rejected entry to the country.

I get that everybody under suspicion can't be followed / bugged etc but how is it possible for all of the attacks to end up being by people "known".

Because we have too much intel and not enough manpower. This guy was reported through Prevent I think, the same strategy that gets people reported for growing too quick or misspelling "terraced".

Going to these bumfuck countries is a big thing for a lot of Asians. Fair enough if it was syria but a lot of these camps are in or close to places like Pakistan, this guys Dad was from and living in Libya IIRC.

Also stopping them going tips them off, it might be better to build evidence or wait until you have definitive proof that won't get kicked out of court so you can avoid harassment charges against the Police.

To take it away from terrorism for a minute, look at left wing groups that are tracked by MI5. They have files on people like my Mum or Caroline Lucas. I'm probably on file somewhere because of groups I've joined or software I've downloaded. There's a massive gap between getting yourself known to secret services and actually being a threat that requires intervention.

 

[Nick]

Yes but standing back and watching to gather evidence doesn't work if it then means they are free to commit terrorism.

I can understand letting a drug deal go ahead so you can run in and catch them all red handed, but not things like this.

 

[shmmeee]

Yes but standing back and watching to gather evidence doesn't work if it then means they are free to commit terrorism.

I can understand letting a drug deal go ahead so you can run in and catch them all red handed, but not things like this.

Point is you don't know what put him on the list and the list is fucking massive. "Known to security services" means essentially fuck all. If you've not got proof of a crime there's not a lot you can do and rightly so.

 

[Nick]

Point is you don't know what put him on the list and the list is fucking massive. "Known to security services" means essentially fuck all. If you've not got proof of a crime there's not a lot you can do and rightly so.

No, but if you are suspected of crimes like terrorism and it's possible you could carry out attacks like this then human rights should go out of the window.

There's a bit of a difference from download a torrent and travelling to Syria to get trained up by ISIS.

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

National 1 minute silence at 11 this morning for those that don't know.

UK to observe a minute's silence for victims of the Manchester terrorist attack - GOV.UK

 

[CJ_covblaze]

Oh, you went Ryanair, did you? )

EasyJet, so close. Means we get to do the two bridges though which is good.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

National 1 minute silence at 11 this morning for those that don't know.

Thanks, didn't know that.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Yep. Money spent on Trident is better used elsewhere in regards to protecting the UK.

Indeed, Trident is no counter to terrorism.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

 

[Nick]

Army rushed to the college now in Manchester.

Hope it's nothing serious, likely to be a bellend wanting a bit of attention

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

According to 5Live, he was reported to the authorities via the Anti-Terrorist Hotline (0800 789321, by the way!) by a Muslim youth worker about 5 years ago, because they had concerns about the language he was using in relation to radicalization and suicide bombing.
It is likely that it was followed up at the time, but he has posed no risk in the intervening period. There are something like 3,500 on the "watch list", and about 500 people under "active" investigation, with plots we never hear about in the news being foiled all the time. There probably isn't the resource to track everyone on the list all the time.
Interesting that he only returned from visiting his family in Libya 3 days before the attack. Was that a "goodbye" visit, or was it to get training?

 

[covcity4life]

Point is you don't know what put him on the list and the list is fucking massive. "Known to security services" means essentially fuck all. If you've not got proof of a crime there's not a lot you can do and rightly so.

thats the thing, what puts people on a watchlist?

my mate had police come round and confiscate his pc because he had been youtubing and reading loads about 9/11 for a few days in a row. this would have been 2004 or 05 time.

they gave it him back like and no issue with police being thorough but i do wonder how many people are on watchlists who are not connected at all.

still this guy was and when germany knew he was in their country they should have spoken with our government you would have hoped.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

But the security services in the UK are regarded as being shit-hot, apparently. Hence the speed with which they identified him, and the speed of arrests they have been making in his contact group (including Nuneaton).
There are reports of arrests being made after explosions at domestic premises, but they are worried that one of the locations may be the bomb factory, and that now may be booby-trapped (since the Yanks so helpfully informed all his network), or protected by a suicide bomber, so all of the warrants are being executed with the SAS using explosive devices to "blow the bloody doors off", rather than knocking politely.
All according to BBC 5Live and other news resources, by the way.

 

[Nick]

thats the thing, what puts people on a watchlist?

You would think there is a tick list with different levels.

Even so, if I was googling loads of random stuff (not just news about terrorism, but darker stuff) and got a knock of the police it would be understandable. The same if I then wanted to go to Syria or started using worrying language.

The punishment for anybody not reporting it should also be harsh.

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

After the arrests in Nuneaton last night, another house in Nuneaton has just been raided.

Home raided in Nuneaton as part of Manchester terrorism attack probe

 

[Nick]

Looks like it was just around the corner from last night's if it's different.

 

[covcity4life]

You would think there is a tick list with different levels.

Even so, if I was googling loads of random stuff (not just news about terrorism, but darker stuff) and got a knock of the police it would be understandable. The same if I then wanted to go to Syria or started using worrying language.

The punishment for anybody not reporting it should also be harsh.

its the only way now. have to be strict. let people(even us) get our backs up and anooyed etc but prefer to that a 8 year old girl being killed by a nail bomb.

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

Looks like it was just around the corner from last night's if it's different.

Last nights road is off this mornings, so very close indeed.

 

[Nick]

its the only way now. have to be strict. let people(even us) get our backs up and anooyed etc but prefer to that a 8 year old girl being killed by a nail bomb.

Exactly!

Yes it's a pain in the arse but if people are innocent what's the problem? Granted if somebody gets bundled into a van at gun point for googling ISIS it's stupid, but if there is real concern about a person (and people have reported them) then what's the harm?

Also, at what point can you report somebody for being a terrorist or heading towards?

 

[covcity4life]

its like stop and search

i remember there was a big thing when i was at school of black and asian kids being stopped in town by police for "random" stop and searches. now whilst i understand the anger towards sterotyping i always thought to myself if they ask me ill let them and then say no problem

because it really isnt.

 

[Nick]

its like stop and search

i remember there was a big thing when i was at school of black and asian kids being stopped in town by police for "random" stop and searches. now whilst i understand the anger towards sterotyping i always thought to myself if they ask me ill let them and then say no problem

because it really isnt.

I've always thought that if people have nothing to hide. I'm not black though so if I was and was being stopped and searched on my way to work every day I'd soon have an issue, but then if I was hanging about on a street corner and looked dodgy I'd understand it. It's all about the context.

I even understand things like stop checks with drink driving, I don't mind 10 minutes to have a breathaliser as I know I won't have been drinking. If I was getting pulled over every morning I'd soon get pissed off.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Earls Road, Nuneaton this morning. Just around the corner from Meadow St last night. No reports of arrests this morning. Another property owned by the guy arrested last night???

 

[SIR ERNIE]

No, but if you are suspected of crimes like terrorism and it's possible you could carry out attacks like this then human rights should go out of the window.

There's a bit of a difference from download a torrent and travelling to Syria to get trained up by ISIS.

Exactly.

The authorities must start to put the security and safety of the masses above the civil rights of the few.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Interesting about the mention of Prevent earlier in the thread.
The National Union of Students are refusing to engage with universities in fulfilling their legal obligations under Prevent, due to concerns about victimization, profiling, freedom of speech, etc. I wonder how many more people of student age need to die before they will learn that the needs of the nation override the rights of the few (who may be adversely affected, in their view).