First chunk in Robins impenetrable armour? (14 Viewers)

[Grendel]

budgets dictate finishing position

It doesn't though does it? Wycombe were promoted at the same time as us. Ipswich were not.

Barnsley made the play offs last season in the Championship. Clubs such as Ipswich, Wolves and Sheffield United have been relegated from it.

 

---

[COV]

do they? Its a generalisation, yes they influence position but they don't set it otherwise how did we finish 16th last season

Because we have one of our most successful managers ever.

 

[Grendel]

Because we have one of our most successful managers ever.

No its the sisu messaging to lower expectation and then hope to claim over achievement - its a strategy they began in League 2 and its working over and over again

Oh

 

[COV]

No its the sisu messaging to lower expectation and then hope to claim over achievement - its a strategy they began in League 2 and its working over and over again

Oh

I don't quite understand all these gifs but I do like that you would spend the time on them for me

But anyway... whatever you want to say about things, there is no denying that Robins is something to do with it, what were your expectations for last season?

He's laid down a marker now for this season and we need to expect high, but last season he delivered more than I think most of us could have expected.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Championship listed from smallest wage bill to highest. Derby & Wigan no accounts flied so who knows

2019/20 season
Team	Final Position	Turnover ​	wage spend​
Derby - not filed	10​	0.00m​	0.0m​
Wigan - not filed	23​	0.0m​	0.0m​
Barnsley	21​	14.2m​	11.1m​
Charlton	22​	15.3m​	12.2m​
Luton	19​	14.6m​	14.0m​
QPR	13​	20.7m​	17.4m​
Hull City	24​	15.0m​	17.7m​
Millwall	8​	16.4m​	18.9m​
Preston NE	9​	12.6m​	20.4m​
Blackburn	11​	13.5m​	25.6m​
Bristol	12​	16.2m​	27.3m​
Huddersfield	18​	52.7m​	30.2m​
Middlesboro	17​	19.4m​	30.9m​
Birmingham	20​	22.5m​	32.4m​
Sheff Weds	16​	20.8m​	33.5m​
Cardiff	5​	44.9m​	35.6m​
Reading	14​	18.0m​	37.6m​
Notts Forest	7​	25.7m​	38.1m​
Swansea	6​	49.9m​	40.2m​
Brentford	3​	13.9m​	48.9m​
Stoke	15​	49.8m​	52.7m​
West Brom	2​	53.7m​	66.9m​
Fulham	4​	58.0m​	72.6m​
Leeds Utd	1​	54.2m​	78.3m​

seems to be that there is a correlation to some degree at either end of the table for relegation and promotion, a bit inconclusive for the rest of it , with teams like Stoke, Millwall, Preston, Birmingham being the exceptions arguably. But teams can buck the trend as we we did last season.

conclusion is its a generalisation not a fact that it is all about the budget..... it is only part of the story for most teams. For most teams success is really just staying in the division, by whatever means they can

Frightening how much is spent in the Championship gambling on promotion. The amount that a lot of teams exceed their turnover in wages on the off chance of promotion should be ringing alarms at FA, EFL etc No wonder teams get in to financial trouble

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

No its the sisu messaging to lower expectation and then hope to claim over achievement - its a strategy they began in League 2 and its working over and over again

Oh

What’s the word you use? Drivel....just admit you hate Robins and want him gone. You are building a case for us to stay in the play off spots so you can accuse him of failing if we finish outside them. It is your playbook for sure.

 

[Grendel]

What’s the word you use? Drivel....just admit you hate Robins and want him gone. You are building a case for us to stay in the play off spots so you can accuse him of failing if we finish outside them. It is your playbook for sure.

Either we are fluking wins and we are lucky or we are not. So you think we are fluking wins? I don't think from this position we should finish below 10th especially as under Robins the away form improves as the season progresses - also of course as Pete keeps telling us Seppala is emotionally invested in the club so if we are still in the race in December she will be backing the club with funding to push for promotion

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It doesn't though does it? Wycombe were promoted at the same time as us. Ipswich were not.

Barnsley made the play offs last season in the Championship. Clubs such as Ipswich, Wolves and Sheffield United have been relegated from it.

It’s generally correct

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Championship listed from smallest wage bill to highest. Derby & Wigan no accounts flied so who knows

2019/20 season
Team	Final Position	Turnover ​	wage spend​
Derby - not filed	10​	0.00m​	0.0m​
Wigan - not filed	23​	0.0m​	0.0m​
Barnsley	21​	14.2m​	11.1m​
Charlton	22​	15.3m​	12.2m​
Luton	19​	14.6m​	14.0m​
QPR	13​	20.7m​	17.4m​
Hull City	24​	15.0m​	17.7m​
Millwall	8​	16.4m​	18.9m​
Preston NE	9​	12.6m​	20.4m​
Blackburn	11​	13.5m​	25.6m​
Bristol	12​	16.2m​	27.3m​
Huddersfield	18​	52.7m​	30.2m​
Middlesboro	17​	19.4m​	30.9m​
Birmingham	20​	22.5m​	32.4m​
Sheff Weds	16​	20.8m​	33.5m​
Cardiff	5​	44.9m​	35.6m​
Reading	14​	18.0m​	37.6m​
Notts Forest	7​	25.7m​	38.1m​
Swansea	6​	49.9m​	40.2m​
Brentford	3​	13.9m​	48.9m​
Stoke	15​	49.8m​	52.7m​
West Brom	2​	53.7m​	66.9m​
Fulham	4​	58.0m​	72.6m​
Leeds Utd	1​	54.2m​	78.3m​

seems to be that there is a correlation to some degree at either end of the table for relegation and promotion, a bit inconclusive for the rest of it , with teams like Stoke, Millwall, Preston, Birmingham being the exceptions arguably. But teams can buck the trend as we we did last season.

conclusion is its a generalisation not a fact that it is all about the budget..... it is only part of the story for most teams. For most teams success is really just staying in the division, by whatever means they can

Frightening how much is spent in the Championship gambling on promotion. The amount that a lot of teams exceed their turnover in wages on the off chance of promotion should be ringing alarms at FA, EFL etc No wonder teams get in to financial trouble

Awful isn’t it? Not a chance of competing if no funding is put in year on year. So few clubs spending less on wages than turnover

 

[Grendel]

It’s generally correct

well in the championship it clearly isn’t really other than the relegated clubs from the premier getting promoted - many clubs now have wage bills which exceed revenue and now can’t buy players. I’m sure technically derby have a larger wage spend than us don’t they?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

well in the championship it clearly isn’t really other than the relegated clubs from the premier getting promoted - many clubs now have wage bills which exceed revenue and now can’t buy players. I’m sure technically derby have a larger wage spend than us don’t they?

Osb has put a line under this discussion grendel

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

Either we are fluking wins and we are lucky or we are not. So you think we are fluking wins? I don't think from this position we should finish below 10th especially as under Robins the away form improves as the season progresses - also of course as Pete keeps telling us Seppala is emotionally invested in the club so if we are still in the race in December she will be backing the club with funding to push for promotion

Sepalla will be taking a back seat should things start to unravel on the pitch.

 

[Grendel]

Osb has put a line under this discussion grendel

Er have you actually read it? Sheffield Wednesday? Hull? Birmingham? Reading? Stoke?

 

[Grendel]

Also the following season Barnsley in the top 6 and the progression made by Luton?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Er have you actually read it? Sheffield Wednesday? Hull? Birmingham? Reading? Stoke?

Yes there seems to be a link at the top and the bottom but not so much in the middle. Have you actually read it?

 

[Grendel]

Yes there seems to be a link at the top and the bottom but not so much in the middle. Have you actually read it?

clearly yes as I keep mentioning a considerable amount of teams which you are ignoring

 

[Evo1883]

This does have the same feeling as the Mowbray - Armstrong/Murphy season. I don't think we will have a better chance than this season to push for promotion.

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Does it really though ? It feels absolutely nothing alike does it , because we started extremely strongly and had a great first 9 games ? This is the same season where we were 4th on almost 50 points by new year in a league we were expected to compete up the top end in.

 

[Fergusons_Beard]

What I found frustrating last night was certainly the lack of earlier substitutions but also everyone knows how Swansea play ( the gamesmanship linked to high press and workrate) but we still looked to play the same way as always. The opposition playing the way they did cut down space, put pressure on us all over the pitch. Swansea are a decent team with good game management partly based on bending the rules as far as possible. We don't have those sort of players, no one got in the ref and linos ear like the Swansea players. We are too nice and not a little naiive

Leaving aside the first 12 minutes we tried for the next 78 minutes to force the ball based on slow lumbering build up. We were crying out for real pace able to run behind the Swansea defence. We don't have that speed and in some of our players we don't have it mentally either. Am thankful we got some grip to stop it being another Luton but the passing wasn't sharp, too often inaccurate, players disappeared in the game, didn't seem to play or be comfortable in the positions they were supposed to be in.

Swansea caused part of it but I don't think I was surprised by what they did, so you have to assume MR and his team weren't. But we didn't have a plan to deal with it other than play the same way. It didn't work and never really looked like working

The officials added to a frustrating night. They were pretty dire, what was needed was strong officiating but we got errors and acquiescence of gamesmanship. Not good enough but it is becoming a recurring thing in this division.

Spot on that OSB.

The most frustrating thing for me is the season and game management by Robins.

O Hare , Godden, Gyo all running on empty in the game. Knowing there’s a game on Satdee (& plus the fact MR has mentioned it before in the aftermath of the Preston game) why the hell did he not take them all off at 60 minutes.

Yet he takes off the fittest player on the park who probably won’t play on Satdee!

Couldn’t have taken at least two of them off and saved them for Satdee.

MR has got to start being proactive rather than reactive.

Injuries happen to exhausted players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[shmmeee]

do they? Its a generalisation, yes they influence position but they don't set it otherwise how did we finish 16th last season

They pretty much do unless you’ve got a once in a generation manager. Which we have.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Spot on that OSB.

The most frustrating thing for me is the season and game management by Robins.

O Hare , Godden, Gyo all running on empty in the game. Knowing there’s a game on Satdee (& plus the fact MR has mentioned it before in the aftermath of the Preston game) why the hell did he not take them all off at 60 minutes.

Yet he takes off the fittest player on the park who probably won’t play on Satdee!

Couldn’t have taken at least two of them off and saved them for Satdee.

MR has got to start being proactive rather than reactive.

Injuries happen to exhausted players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Saturday

There, you can just copy and paste that next time you need it

 

[Hobo]

Either we are fluking wins and we are lucky or we are not. So you think we are fluking wins? I don't think from this position we should finish below 10th especially as under Robins the away form improves as the season progresses - also of course as Pete keeps telling us Seppala is emotionally invested in the club so if we are still in the race in December she will be backing the club with funding to push for promotion

Lots of assumptions and emotive talk in that. Loads of spin.

For instance it is not fluking wins or not fluking them.

We are winning at the moment but whether that is sustainable who knows with form and injuries as the season pans out.

SISU no doubt have their own agenda how they set up their stall - just like you do! No doubt you are feeling sore after a failed 2-3 season campaign to undermine Robins. At some point he will probably fail and you will rush in and claim a hollow victory that will impress none of us.

 

[oldskyblue58]

In terms of budget everyone seems to focus on over achievement, under achieving seems to go under the radar. Hard to argue that in 2019/20 Stoke with the 4th biggest budget achieved results/position equal to the cost.

Focus on a single figure to explain a seasons performance is misleading. Wage spend can be different to budget, depending on other factors. A total budget doesnt have to be spent for example.

If a "once in a lifetime manager" makes such a difference to teams over a number of seasons then that in itself points to it being more than the budget. It isnt just us who have had such an experience. One season fine but over 3 or 4 ?

Yes you can to a degree buy success but only if the other tools are also there to achieve it.

In terms of MR, as good as he is for us and he has been very good he is still like everyone else and will misjudge or make errors. In our case those errors are highlighted more because we don't have funds to invest in a squad of depth in quality. That in part because the owners make the club live within its means, something I think all clubs should. The cracks in his armour will come and go, if we out perform budget again I wouldn't be surprised. That will be because of the skill sets within the club won't it? And for the 5th season running ?

Am sure MR will consolidate us in this division irrespective of budget and that in its self is a huge success.

Enjoy it while it lasts and just maybe dream a little more realistically

 

[CCFC54321]

I think we will tail off between now and January. Bring in a couple of new signings and loan out a couple of fridge players and go again and consolidate around the 8-10th place position. Still a very good season.

 

[Hullinho87]

We are 4th I expect from where we are to finish in the top 8 without question - it’s a perverse logic to believe a significant form downturn is likely unless there are major injuries

So it’s not what you were saying in that we should be expected to finish above Blackpool and Huddersfield because we finished higher than them last season (because of course that would mean we should finish around 12th to 15th based on last season’s league positions).

What you mean is that it would be a significant downturn if say we dropped 7 to 10 points out the next possible 18 available and never quite recover that back and say finish 11th?

 

[Hullinho87]

Pretty much year on year that’s exactly what happens apart from with Sunderland

That all clubs except Sunderland relatively higher revenue equated to a higher Squad/wage expenditure?

I have never seen any conclusive evidence of that anywhere personally.

 

[Grendel]

So it’s not what you were saying in that we should be expected to finish above Blackpool and Huddersfield because we finished higher than them last season (because of course that would mean we should finish around 12th to 15th based on last season’s league positions).

What you mean is that it would be a significant downturn if say we dropped 7 to 10 points out the next possible 18 available and never quite recover that back and say finish 11th?

No I’m saying given the composition of the league this season due to COVID impacting many clubs there have been few big signings, clubs stuck with players on huge wages and this is evidenced that many clubs with smaller wage bills are competing on a much more equal basis.

Unless there is a injury crises I can’t see why we would fall away - there’s no logic to it.

Also if the owners are focused on promotion they should provide funds in January as many clubs crippled with operating debt won’t be spending - it’s a unique opportunity before the status quo reverts back again.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

That all clubs except Sunderland relatively higher revenue equated to a higher Squad/wage expenditure?

I have never seen any conclusive evidence of that anywhere personally.

Osb shared some

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

Osb shared some

Which post was that?

 

[TomRad85]

No I’m saying given the composition of the league this season due to COVID impacting many clubs there have been few big signings, clubs stuck with players on huge wages and this is evidenced that many clubs with smaller wage bills are competing on a much more equal basis.

Unless there is a injury crises I can’t see why we would fall away - there’s no logic to it.

Also if the owners are focused on promotion they should provide funds in January as many clubs crippled with operating debt won’t be spending - it’s a unique opportunity before the status quo reverts back again.

Spot on with this.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[shmmeee]

There’s no reason we shouldn’t be top six this season. Just need a couple of reinforcements in Jan.

 

[Londonccfcfan]

Championship listed from smallest wage bill to highest. Derby & Wigan no accounts flied so who knows

2019/20 season
Team	Final Position	Turnover ​	wage spend​
Derby - not filed	10​	0.00m​	0.0m​
Wigan - not filed	23​	0.0m​	0.0m​
Barnsley	21​	14.2m​	11.1m​
Charlton	22​	15.3m​	12.2m​
Luton	19​	14.6m​	14.0m​
QPR	13​	20.7m​	17.4m​
Hull City	24​	15.0m​	17.7m​
Millwall	8​	16.4m​	18.9m​
Preston NE	9​	12.6m​	20.4m​
Blackburn	11​	13.5m​	25.6m​
Bristol	12​	16.2m​	27.3m​
Huddersfield	18​	52.7m​	30.2m​
Middlesboro	17​	19.4m​	30.9m​
Birmingham	20​	22.5m​	32.4m​
Sheff Weds	16​	20.8m​	33.5m​
Cardiff	5​	44.9m​	35.6m​
Reading	14​	18.0m​	37.6m​
Notts Forest	7​	25.7m​	38.1m​
Swansea	6​	49.9m​	40.2m​
Brentford	3​	13.9m​	48.9m​
Stoke	15​	49.8m​	52.7m​
West Brom	2​	53.7m​	66.9m​
Fulham	4​	58.0m​	72.6m​
Leeds Utd	1​	54.2m​	78.3m​

seems to be that there is a correlation to some degree at either end of the table for relegation and promotion, a bit inconclusive for the rest of it , with teams like Stoke, Millwall, Preston, Birmingham being the exceptions arguably. But teams can buck the trend as we we did last season.

conclusion is its a generalisation not a fact that it is all about the budget..... it is only part of the story for most teams. For most teams success is really just staying in the division, by whatever means they can

Frightening how much is spent in the Championship gambling on promotion. The amount that a lot of teams exceed their turnover in wages on the off chance of promotion should be ringing alarms at FA, EFL etc No wonder teams get in to financial trouble

Turnover and wage Bill's the last 2 years have fallen off a cliff. Since this figures.

 

[Londonccfcfan]

There’s no reason we shouldn’t be top six this season. Just need a couple of reinforcements in Jan.

Absolutely agree.

A table I like to see and reflects generally how your playing is xG.

We are still 3rd in that. Sheffield united are 5th.

It's made laugh and chuckle this laugh at the usual bed wetters.

 

[Hobo]

There’s no reason we shouldn’t be top six this season. Just need a couple of reinforcements in Jan.

There are only two types of player available in January
1. Over priced
2. Free and useless.

It is a terrible window to sign players on a permanent basis. Best option is probably loans.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Turnover and wage Bill's the last 2 years have fallen off a cliff. Since this figures.

only one team has filed their 2020/21 financials. That is Hull

Not easy to tell the covid effect on their financials because they were relegated to L1 in 2019/20 and got promoted 2020/21.

	2020/21	2019/20	2018/19
division	League 1	Championship	Championship
Turnover	6.8m	15.1m	11.1m
Player sales	2.8m	17.7m	4.6m
Wages	8.4m	17.7m	24.8m
Parachute payments	0.0m	0.6m	37.2m
Profits/(losses)	(8.1m)	2.8m	2.5m

Looks like serious cost cutting in League 1. The biggest loss of income from Championship to League 1 was 5m in TV & EFL distributions. They lost around 1.4m in attendance income a drop of 63% in 2020/21 but that directly compares L1 to Championship so probably to be expected.

Balance sheet 2021 is £22m negative and they owe the owners £40m .

The directors estimate of squad value is £20m but that is not in the figures other than a note in the directors report

2020/21 still managed to pay out 123% of turnover as wages but it was cushioned by the 2.8m profit on player disposals. (in our last year in L1 the CCFC wage bill was 6.5m turnover 5.1m and profits on players 3.8m losses 3.3m)

In these three years they have relied upon major profits on player sales and the owner plus in 2018/19 the parachute payments just to basically stand still. Current form suggests it isnt working and the overall trend is down

 

[Liquid Gold]

only one team has filed their 2020/21 financials. That is Hull

Not easy to tell the covid effect on their financials because they were relegated to L1 in 2019/20 and got promoted 2020/21.

	2020/21	2019/20	2018/19
division	League 1	Championship	Championship
Turnover	6.8m	15.1m	11.1m
Player sales	2.8m	17.7m	4.6m
Wages	8.4m	17.7m	24.8m
Parachute payments	0.0m	0.6m	37.2m
Profits/(losses)	(8.1m)	2.8m	2.5m

Looks like serious cost cutting in League 1. The biggest loss of income from Championship to League 1 was 5m in TV & EFL distributions. They lost around 1.4m in attendance income a drop of 63% in 2020/21 but that directly compares L1 to Championship

Balance sheet 2021 is £22m negative and they owe the owners £40m .

The directors estimate of squad value is £20m but that is not in the figures other than a note in the directors report

2020/21 still managed to pay out 123% of turnover as wages but it was cushioned by the 2.8m profit on player disposals. In these three years they have relied upon major profits on player sales and the owner plus in 2018/19 the parachute payments just to basically stand still. Current form suggests it isnt working and the overall trend is down

Such serious cost cutting explains why they're struggling so much this season.

Often when teams are relegated and bounce straight back they seem to get into a winning habit and do alright (unless they're Rotherham) but Hull are obviously down to the bones.