Fisher on CWR (1 Viewer)

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 6, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
The one reliant upon a signed contract?

I'm bemused by people on here who think ACL are somehow bound to the whim of TF and should just disregard the fact they are legally entitled to a huge sum of money. Had they not been willing at any stage to negotiate or budge on the rent figure then fair enough (though this would have been legitimate in itself)-but offers have been made and flatly refused anyway. I've said it many times, and OSB has now also said it-TF has gambled big time with the financial survival of the club and now it's too close for comfort.

blueflint · Dec 6, 2012

skybluesteve76 said:
According to CCFC, ACL refused to meet with them re the rent!
All I know is ACL aren't trying to help the club in anyway.
You've also gotta realise that both sides are playing hard ball at the minute. There's alot of scaremongering going on

yes but the law of the land is on acl side as they are the party who have been wronged ccfc broke the agreement we have to pay or go bust i hope an agreement can be reached but wont hold my breath

psgm1 · Dec 6, 2012

ACL Have to back down? Are you for real?

What happens if ACL back down? Whose to say SiSU wont come back when they haven't invested in the team for another season and say they want an affordable rent for league 2?

Besides its irrelevant to say they haven't got a competitive rent for league 1 - how many league 1 teams have got a stadium like the Ricoh!? If all league1 grounds were like the Ricoh, then that would be the going rate!

It is ridiculous to make such a comparison, as clearly the Ricoh is one of the best if not the best grounds in the league! - even in the championship it was one of the better ones.

SiSU might have had a case if they had made this argument in the championship, but they didn't. It is only now a concern because they decided to not invest in the team for an entire year! Forget Chelsea Daggers SiSU are Chelsea chancers!

blueflint · Dec 6, 2012

sisu are not crooked just unscrupulous and greedy.acl and the council want the best deal they can.i hope some agreement can be reached soon

oldskyblue58 · Dec 6, 2012

Think people have got to factor in that ACL have to start their negotiation point from the full amount. This is the only amount they are going to quote publically because anything else should be kept private until it is agreed. Clearly CCFC will start from the other end and in theory if there is no other agenda a compromise reached. There is nothing that says ACL are not trying to help the club but equally you can choose to believe they have done nothing (which actually makes very little commercial sense in reality but there you go)

You also have to remember that the public name calling isnt actually coming from ACL - they have issued two simple statements and their CEO was interviewed on CWR but gave little away. Because of the nature of the stake holders involved ACL can not come out plucking figures out of the air that are not substantiated.

Are they going to tell us what they have offered or tried to do - no. BUT they will have a paper trail that says exactly what was offered to CCFC that may come out later. Will CCFC/TF tell us of these offers - i wouldnt have thought so because it doesnt suit his cause. Both sides are entitled to take the approaches they have ........... but dont just assume nothing has gone on or been offered.

rupert_bear · Dec 6, 2012

Amazed at some of the posts on here, to me the situation is simple, SISU pay the agreed rent. This rent was agreed when they took the reins in 2007 and based on us being in the championship. In my opinion incompedence from those who run the club allowed us to be relegated bringing the financial problems that comes with that. I remember last season crawling out of the bottom 3 with just 6 matches to go, a couple of decent loans i think would have saved our bacon, then there's the story, never been denied about a group of local business men offering to fund the wages for a couple of loans, an offer dismissed by Fisher and Waggott. Then there's the offer to halve the rent again turned down by Fisher. We all have to ask what is the end game to all this ? Just what are the SISU tactics and why. Who wouldn't accept players to help the cause for free possibly saving losing the £4million Sky money for their business, who wouldn't accept the olive branch of halving the rent. There has to be a time for this to come to a head and this is obviously it, no-one can blame ACL on this, they are asking what was agreed nothing more and offered to reduce that by 50%, what other business would do that

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Dec 6, 2012

rupert_bear said:
Amazed at some of the posts on here, to me the situation is simple, SISU pay the agreed rent.

Ok, lets do that then. Don't moan when we can't afford to buy players and sell our best players and we have to cut wages which will most likely mean we start the steady slide to league 2 and our future is at risk because we can't afford a 1.2 million rent when we have 6k fans coming to watch a league 2 fixture

But it is all good as long as we are paying expensive rent

stupot07 · Dec 6, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
substantial food and drinks ? Lets take a guess. Average crowd 10k less 1000 corporate = 9k ....average spend per head say £3 = income £27k. Purchases say 40% of sales thats £10800 ....... wages say 10 kiosks 5 people per unit 8 hours each at minimum wages £6 = 2400 ...... Power, insurance, site rent etc per kiosk £500 = 5000 ......... lets say thats a net profit (but doubt it would be this much) = 8800 per match = 220k for the year with 25 games. In the scheme of things not really substantial

Apparently though its killing the club not having it to deduct from its £3m + loss (as given by TF ar fans forum):thinking about:

Of course it's substantial if rent was in line with league one or even championship average rent, that £220k would pay the rent.

valiant15 · Dec 6, 2012

What comes first in your house ccfc?,bills or expensive tv's etc? Don't moan when they sell our best players,they've done that,don't moan when they don't buy any players,they dont buy any,cut wages,they've done that,as long as we pay expensive rent,they dont pay any. So where's your argument?

Chipfat · Dec 6, 2012

ACL after having talks with the bank don't need CCFC to carry on as a business, they would welcome the revenue but do not need it to carry on. TF stated they are going into Admin, they are in business trouble and in grave danger of going under. TF is talkin BS and is fooling himself if he thinks majority of fans are going to believe him.

He was trying misdirection by talking about ACL'instead of SISU breaking a signed agreement regarding rental payments. Sisu have played poker and with the hands about to be shown looks like they may have lost. Pay up or fook off is the message today from ACL and this with the law on there side, so no matter what any of us think or believe the way it stands now we will be without a home unless someone backs down...

The other bigger factor is do SISU really believe that after all this getting the stadium is really still an option open to them?. To me they have played cards while holding no hand, very dangerous game and one you lose if you keep playing the same way.....

Black6Osprey · Dec 6, 2012

valiant15 said:
What comes first in your house ccfc,bills or expensive tv's etc? Don't moan when we sell our best players,they've done that,don't moan when we don't buy any players,we dont buy any,cut wages,they've done that,as long as we pay expensive rent,we dont pay any. So where's your argument?

Isn't that the point though?

We have been making such big losses that we have made drastic cuts. You cant want a nice stable club but also moan that when the cloth is cut we are in league 2. We now appear to be trying to get things on a even..ish keel and this rent is just going to drag us down another level.

cloughie · Dec 6, 2012

AFCCOVENTRY said:
If I looked at this with a business hat - Sisu want the cheapest deal for CCFC idiot the Ricoh. Acl are in the way - so best thing is to ruin them hoping to get the deal sisu want. It happens all the time in business. Acl is a wounded wolf at the moment on the verge of going under. Sisu will strike when they are on their death bed.

Acl are in big financial difficulties at the moment.

Where do you get your 'facts' from .....oh yes tim fisher ( the mouthpiece for secretive unknown owners) well it must be true then

you wouldn't want to believe PWKH or the statement made by ACL the other day now would you

SkyBlueBlood · Dec 6, 2012

This is just embarrassing. He talks about a "community club" but then withholds monies that they legitimately owe to the council, which means that the community has to stump up more money to keep these idiots afloat and playing god with our football club.

Once again everyone except for SISU is expected to pay for their incompetence. Get in the real world or get out.

Black6Osprey · Dec 6, 2012

Just wanted to add something by way of comparison.

Portman Road is owned 100% by the council and in 2004 the club and council went into dispute as they wanted to raise the yearly rental from £15k to £110k.

No rent was payed by Ipswich Town from 2004 until this year when a compromise was reached.

Just an example of why this rental is ridiculously high as Ipswich claimed they couldn't afford such an increase. The council didn't kick them out on the street.

Everyone invloved in our shambles is only interested in the money and don't give a shit about the club, supporters, community etc.

oldskyblue58 · Dec 6, 2012

stupot07 said:
Of course it's substantial if rent was in line with league one or even championship average rent, that £220k would pay the rent.

ok take the whole of the rent out add on the kiosk profits ..............still make at least £2m losses............ and the club is viable because ?

we dont play in an average Championship ground let alone an average League 1 ground .......... so on what sound logic does that equal paying an average League 1 rent ? Rents are based on the facilities provided not some supposed calculation of League 1 average. CCFC I assume have set their own prices and marketing based on a rent at the Ricoh that is not average.

in the numbers involved in the club accounts 220k is not substantial.

smoke and mirrors as always

skyblueman · Dec 6, 2012

Sky Blues said:
A few lines I got down as best I could from Tim Fisher speaking on CWR:

"I've never bowed to threats and will not bow to threats. This has to be resolved and I'm sure it can get resolved."

"It's about a community asset. For ACL to produce an analogy of being a like a house and a tenant is just odd."

"We've said we will not be bullied into a situation where we have no options. You've got to put other options on the table."

"My personal opinion... we should never have left Highfield Road. We need our spiritual home."

"We don't have a home. We don't have a ground. We have an extortionate rent."

"This has been a problem for years and years. It can't go on, this club is being bled to death. This club is spending a fortune."

"We've been very open [with ACL]. We've put in numerous requests for a meeting, but they've been turned down."

"If you describe doing the right thing as playing fast and loose, yes I'm playing fast and loose. This is about making sure the football club pays the right amount of rent."

"The difference between what we are being asked to pay and what we are expected to pay goes to one place, it goes on the pitch."

"We pay £10,000 a match"

"We will do our bit. We've always done out bit. This is a football club. We are football club front and centre in the community."

"The football club comes first. We are not playing fast and loose with the football club. "We are doing the right thing is to negotiate a rent which is competitive in League 1 and get back into the Championship."

Make of that what you will...

He was pressed repeatedly along the lines of "isn't the right thing to do to pay what you owe and then negotiate the rent?"

'fast and loose' did he really say that - I'm so embarrassed for him really I am - that's how bad it is now I'm actually feeling sorry for the bloke

Diehard Si · Dec 6, 2012

I've always given him the benefit of the doubt and always thought he was in it for the best, but what I heard this morning was utterly distgusting.

People have often talked about him bullshitting and I've always defended him, no more. Today I heard complete and utter crap from his mouth. Attempting to play on the heart strings of supporters but thankfully most of us are intelligent enough to see through this now.

He accused ACL of being bullies, which is laughable. A charity and the Council, those mean old men who are not getting paid what they are owed. SISU knew the deal when they signed up to it. ACL have been good enough to offer a cut, they don't have to do that.

They do pay £10k a match yes, to cover the costs.

He claimed they get no match day revenue. Well this was in the agreed contract, we get the match ticket sales.

Fisher said they have 2 mantras, 1 being transparancy ( are you kidding me?? The cloak and daggers and smoke and mirrors crap they get up to? ) and the club comes first ( if by the club you mean SISU's bank account then yes I agree totally ).

He said they should have never left Highfield Road - Yes that's true, but he only said this to stir emotion with the fans listening. It adds nothing to the current situation. We should have never signed Craig Bellamy either. Both are tragic misjudgements but they are done and dusted.

We want to hear what's going on, but he's just using the radio as publicitiy and to put pressure on ACL. Yes the rent is too high, but you do not go about it like this. We've all done silly things. I didn't realise how much Mazda were charging on the HP deal for my car when I signed up and was really pissed afterwards that I was paying well over the odds. I didn't go and stamp my feet and refuse to pay though.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Dec 6, 2012

valiant15 said:
Don't moan when they sell our best players,they've done that,don't moan when they don't buy any players,they dont buy any,cut wages,they've done that,as long as we pay expensive rent,they dont pay any. So where's your argument?

Yea,they have sold our best players and cut wages.................because we have been paying 1.2 million pound rent

chiefdave · Dec 6, 2012

The thing with saying it's not an average L1 ground is that it implies that have some other option. Would it really matter to SISU if we were playing at a ground like Fratton Park? Doubt it. Would it stop fans going? Maybe a handful. Imagine there would be a bit of a drop in corporate but not massive. If this was anything but a football club you'd pack up and move somewhere cheaper better suited to your needs. You don't see many loss making companies with 100 employees hanging around in plush offices for 300 they can't afford for years on end.

Other problem for SISU is that of course the rent is not the only thing throwing them into loss and that's a difficult situation but one that probably should be divorced from the issue of the stadium.

Ideally an extra 10K would turn up and we'd probably about break even but past that what do they do? Can't imagine there's many more cuts that can be made on the non playing side so the only option would be to slash the player budget, is this not what they tried last season? That will be a never ending cycle, uncompetitive team gets relegated, income drops, budget cut further and so on and so on.

Is there realistically any way, given that CCFC can't operate in a bubble outside the rest of the football work, that the club can at the very least break even and not be in freefall down the league?

oldskyblue58 · Dec 6, 2012

CCFC said:
Yea,they have sold our best players and cut wages.................because we have been paying 1.2 million pound rent

so given that having the right players is essential to success you might think that SISU would have addressed the issue before now if it was so crucial to the viability of the club. In fact if so crucial a sensible informed investor would have sorted it out when they bought in. Clearly they have built the full cost into any plans they had because they had to provide those details to the auditors who would rely on the terms of the lease.

All about the end game and nothing to do with what is best for the club ...... that is a side issue for SISU

Ashdown1 · Dec 6, 2012

Fisher is just another SISU puppet. He's sticking his neck out for a salary. Its a job that will probably be only short term anyway. SISU don't give a shite about the club or the City, they are not fooling anyone. All that said they will not want to liquidate CCFC and its not in the interest of ACL either. An agreement has to be reached and will be I suspect. It has just taken ACL being forced to press the button on payment that is the issue, something by all accounts they needed to do for their own cash flow.

italiahorse · Dec 6, 2012

Chipfat said:
ACL after having talks with the bank don't need CCFC to carry on as a business, they would welcome the revenue but do not need it to carry on. TF stated they are going into Admin, they are in business trouble and in grave danger of going under. TF is talkin BS and is fooling himself if he thinks majority of fans are going to believe him.

He was trying misdirection by talking about ACL'instead of SISU breaking a signed agreement regarding rental payments. Sisu have played poker and with the hands about to be shown looks like they may have lost. Pay up or fook off is the message today from ACL and this with the law on there side, so no matter what any of us think or believe the way it stands now we will be without a home unless someone backs down...

The other bigger factor is do SISU really believe that after all this getting the stadium is really still an option open to them?. To me they have played cards while holding no hand, very dangerous game and one you lose if you keep playing the same way.....

They both need each other.

CCFC have nowhere else to go and ACL regardless what they say are not viable without a football team. Hopefully we get a 50 % share of the stadium, rent areas and new agreed rent will be factored in. We can then believe that this is our home rather than someone else's and we can all move on.

Waldorf · Dec 6, 2012

Sky Blues said:
A few lines I got down as best I could from Tim Fisher speaking on CWR:

"I've never bowed to threats and will not bow to threats. This has to be resolved and I'm sure it can get resolved."

"It's about a community asset. For ACL to produce an analogy of being a like a house and a tenant is just odd."

"We've said we will not be bullied into a situation where we have no options. You've got to put other options on the table."

"My personal opinion... we should never have left Highfield Road. We need our spiritual home."

"We don't have a home. We don't have a ground. We have an extortionate rent."

"This has been a problem for years and years. It can't go on, this club is being bled to death. This club is spending a fortune."

"We've been very open [with ACL]. We've put in numerous requests for a meeting, but they've been turned down."

"If you describe doing the right thing as playing fast and loose, yes I'm playing fast and loose. This is about making sure the football club pays the right amount of rent."

"The difference between what we are being asked to pay and what we are expected to pay goes to one place, it goes on the pitch."

"We pay £10,000 a match"

"We will do our bit. We've always done out bit. This is a football club. We are football club front and centre in the community."

"The football club comes first. We are not playing fast and loose with the football club. "We are doing the right thing is to negotiate a rent which is competitive in League 1 and get back into the Championship."

Make of that what you will...

He was pressed repeatedly along the lines of "isn't the right thing to do to pay what you owe and then negotiate the rent?"

So they asked for meetings and were turned down? Now we learn they were talking to ACL at the weekend. Not only that, but ACL made another offer (presumably less than the previous ones).

I think Mr Fisher is being economical with the truth.

Waldorf · Dec 6, 2012

italiahorse said:
They both need each other.

CCFC have nowhere else to go and ACL regardless what they say are not viable without a football team. Hopefully we get a 50 % share of the stadium, rent areas and new agreed rent will be factored in. We can then believe that this is our home rather than someone else's and we can all move on.

Would you really trust SISU with even half the stadium?

covcity4life · Dec 6, 2012

Waldorf said:
Would you really trust SISU with even half the stadium?

it beats liquadation

Chipfat · Dec 6, 2012

ACL are in control of the situation now, SISU are being told to pay or get out, the moral obligation has now passed on the side of the council and now legal means have been implemented.. Not you me or the queen can stop this but SISU can pay up or agree a deal on the terms that ACL set or piss off and rent somewhere else.

You also have to remember the money is still owed no matter where we play so pay rent somewhere else but still have the debt of a million plus is not viable for SISU either... SISU are in need ACL will carry on booking The Bruce Springstiens of this world to cover the revenue of all them 20 games a year..Im tending to believe ACL, Trust and passed connections to the club that SISU are not good and are certainly not to be trusted in owning the club never mind the stadium... Opinion is everyone to have and everyones to share i just don't fall with ACL being wrong in this situation when money is owed....

Waldorf · Dec 6, 2012

covcity4life said:
it beats liquadation

Really? You poor deluded fool. Having ruined one business, they would go on to try and ruin another by trying to realise its value. Whatever people think, there's. nothing to be made from half of ACL, since there's a shareholders agreement that no dividends are taken until the loans are paid off. And dividends are the only way money can be paid to shareholders, not a share of profits.

In any case, it would be SISU who owned the half share, not the club. What do you think their attitude to paying rent might be? People seem to forget that CCFC and SISU are two separate companies. The one owns the other, and it ain't CCFC who own SISU!

Evans020 · Dec 6, 2012

blueflint said:
we agreed the rent we owe the rent how can we be doing the right thing by not paying our bills dont be a moron think about it

I think the rent is unrealistic and was forced upon us from failings in previous ownership..if you cannot see that you are the moron.sisu signed the deal and it saved the club at the time..but I cannot believe that anybody would back an outside bunch of capitalist money whores over the club itself.its an unrealistic deal we have at the Ricoh..I say we move and let acl suffer.pay the 1.2 mill and rent from nuneaton or the butts park..the council and acl are just as bad if not worse than sisu in this..I'm not a sisu fan but I back their current actions whole heartidly

Danceswithhorses · Dec 6, 2012

Evans020 said:
I think the rent is unrealistic and was forced upon us from failings in previous ownership.
I cannot believe that anybody would back an outside bunch of capitalist money whores over the club itself.
I'm not a sisu fan but I back their current actions whole heartidly

Like the building of the Ricoh was forced upon us because we had no ground to play in ???? We were TOTALLY rescued from oblivion by the council and the Higgs Charity (ACL)
The 'outside bunch of capitalist money whores' you so elequently put, are SISU, the Mayfair based hedge fund, not ACL, the local council and local charity
If you back SISU's stance, can i borrow £200 from you and pay it back at £10 per month, but then not pay you, even though i promised i would

shy_tall_knight · Dec 6, 2012

SISU may own CCFC but the club is distinct from them, when they talk about the club not paying the rent I always translate that as SISU are not paying the rent, a subtle but important difference to me.

Rent is too high, ACL have recognised this and offered a 50% reduction IMO this is reasonable I think SISU are after a rent-free period.

We won't go into administration, SISU will lose everything, they will pay the rent and cut the playing staff. SISU's ownership of CCFC is a more incompetent business model than ACL.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Dec 6, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
so given that having the right players is essential to success you might think that SISU would have addressed the issue before now if it was so crucial to the viability of the club. In fact if so crucial a sensible informed investor would have sorted it out when they bought in. Clearly they have built the full cost into any plans they had because they had to provide those details to the auditors who would rely on the terms of the lease.

All about the end game and nothing to do with what is best for the club ...... that is a side issue for SISU

I know SISU don't give a shit about the club or supporters but if at the end of this it ends up with a significant rent reduction which will benefit the club I won't be complaining.

I am looking at this from a Cov fan point of view and not a business practice, what is morally right/wrong point of view

Evans020 · Dec 6, 2012

Danceswithhorses said:
Like the building of the Ricoh was forced upon us because we had no ground to play in ???? We were TOTALLY rescued from oblivion by the council and the Higgs Charity (ACL)
The 'outside bunch of capitalist money whores' you so elequently put, are SISU, the Mayfair based hedge fund, not ACL.
If you back SISU's stance, can i borrow £200 from you and pay it back at £10 per month, but then not pay you, even though i promised i would

So sisu dealt with the council / acl/ higgs trust per Ricoh move..er no..they were dealt with by McGinty / Richardson. The deal is unrealistic end of

covcity4life · Dec 6, 2012

CCFC said:
I know SISU don't give a shit about the club or supporters but if at the end of this it ends up with a significant rent reduction which will benefit the club I won't be complaining.

I am looking at this from a Cov fan point of view and not a business practice, what is morally right/wrong point of view

like any TRUE cov fan would.

amazed so many so called fans care more about business practice than their beloved team.

SkyBlueCharlie · Dec 6, 2012

Waldorf said:
So they asked for meetings and were turned down? Now we learn they were talking to ACL at the weekend. Not only that, but ACL made another offer (presumably less than the previous ones).

I think Mr Fisher is being economical with the truth.

I suspect Mr Fisher wouldn't know what the truth was even if it bit him on the arse!

Danceswithhorses · Dec 6, 2012

Evans020 said:
So sisu dealt with the council / acl/ higgs trust per Ricoh move..er no..they were dealt with by McGinty / Richardson. The deal is unrealistic end of

SISU only complained about the rent AFTER they had got us relegated

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