Football league admit incompetance!!! (1 Viewer)

pricey · Aug 16, 2013

Flip me this gets more and more complicated doesn't it?!

Thanks to OSB for shining some light in with those questions.

I guess what matters is whether there is a party involved that is willing to tenaciously pursue 'justice' here or not. If no one shouts about it there are enough people involved desperately wanting to sweep it under the carpet to make exactly that happen.

The Penguin · Aug 16, 2013

Fedupskybluesfan said:
You are correct, but just to throw another one in the pot. As Holdings was and is the original company could it be that when they dropped out of the premier league the FL placed the GS in the wrong company as the PL share would of been with holdings as Ltd did not exist until 1995. Just a question???

That has been mooted on here as a possibility before. It's certainly plausible.

It still doesn't explain why our accounts have been....inaccurate since 1995.

señor Santiago · Aug 16, 2013

so the football made mistakes, but coventry city had points deducted.

CarpyCov84 · Aug 16, 2013

CarpyCov84 said:
ACL/CCC should be looking to legal action to reverse the liquidation & start the bidding process again !

Simon Gilbert has tweeted - they want the bidding process to start again !!!

Godiva · Aug 16, 2013

Hobo said:
I have written to the Football League on two occasions asking when the players registrations were transferred along with other issues. I have received fob off automated replies.

This morning Clarke in a public statement said it would be interesting but not altered the situation.

However at the point I requested this information I pointed out it could be proof SISU acted unlawfully in the administration process or the Football Leagues Administrative procedures were not fit for purpose!

They are now admitting mistakes.

Yes FL are admitting mistakes, but they have not said player contracts had been transferred!

So maybe sisu/TF actually never did transfer or move assets from limited to Holdings. Maybe only new players were registered in Holdings? I think I remember there were a tiny sum listed in limited as player or staff contracts, and I assumed those would be the players on old - long - contracts like McSheff and Bell.

Fedupskybluesfan · Aug 16, 2013

I agree, but this is before SISU, and as they have already stated they would welcome an investigation back to 1995. Either way someone is making it very muddy.

oldskyblue58 · Aug 16, 2013

If you have written to FL and not received a reply within 28 days you can make a formal complaint under there customer charter

RoboCCFC90 · Aug 16, 2013

Dhinsa's_Millions said:
I think the transfer was Fisher, Dulieu and co. (SISU) Who else did it? The fact is the league allowed it to happen! SISU don't get off the hook because it was allowed to happen.

From the way article is worded, you could be forgiven for thinking that the errors were with the Football League and not any former or present CEO of CCFC.

Godiva · Aug 16, 2013

señor Santiago said:
so the football made mistakes, but coventry city had points deducted.

The latest point reduction was due to ACL not signing the CVA.
But it is interesting we got off with only minus 10 and not minus 15 as seem to be the going rate. That could be FL indirectly admitting their mistake.

Spionkop · Aug 16, 2013

Who is Simon Gilbert?

RoboCCFC90 · Aug 16, 2013

Fedupskybluesfan said:
You are correct, but just to throw another one in the pot. As Holdings was and is the original company could it be that when they dropped out of the premier league the FL placed the GS in the wrong company as the PL share would of been with holdings as Ltd did not exist until 1995. Just a question???

To be very honest fedupskybluefan I couldn't answer this the whole GS issue confuses me, the man to ask would be OSB58 I am pretty sure if anyone can provide an answer this would be your man.

RoboCCFC90 · Aug 16, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
If you have written to FL and not received a reply within 28 days you can make a formal complaint under there customer charter

Fedupskybluesfan said:
You are correct, but just to throw another one in the pot. As Holdings was and is the original company could it be that when they dropped out of the premier league the FL placed the GS in the wrong company as the PL share would of been with holdings as Ltd did not exist until 1995. Just a question???

OSB is there any way you can help with this question, my mind is just spinning at the moment.

Hobo · Aug 16, 2013

The point is Godiva under company law during administration or just before you cannot put things in place at the detriment to potential bidders(where players registration were fully or partially), it is illegal. the Football League should be able to answer this, unless of course they are too embarrassed too.

Also Otium were put forward as the "preferred" bidder by the admininstrator there were further courses of legal procedure available. One being their viability as owners according to Football League rules.

also why haven't Otium had to pay their bond up front, Farnborough had too?

SkyBlue76 · Aug 16, 2013

Godiva said:
Yes FL are admitting mistakes, but they have not said player contracts had been transferred!

So maybe sisu/TF actually never did transfer or move assets from limited to Holdings. Maybe only new players were registered in Holdings? I think I remember there were a tiny sum listed in limited as player or staff contracts, and I assumed those would be the players on old - long - contracts like McSheff and Bell.

Does that really make any difference? The player registrations were all in LTD in 2011, so if SISU deliberately started putting contracts into Holdings after that point (which by FL admission no other club has done) isn't this a sign that they were taking a deliberate action to split the company to protect itself if it went into administration - isn't this still asset stripping?

oldskyblue58 · Aug 16, 2013

the player contracts were taken out in CCFC H, TF confirmed this in March....... the registrations(at least some) were in CCFC Ltd - there was some registrations listed in the administrators initial report £466k. I suspect new contracts were completed in August 2011 when there was the hoohar following relegation about bonuses. The £466K i suspect related to contracts/registrations that ended in june 2013 so have no current value

Contracts and registrations have to be filed at FL ....... and they should be in the same company as the golden share because no other company is a member of the FL

AFCCOVENTRY · Aug 16, 2013

ACL statement :

An ACL spokesman said: “The Football League’s admission that it has made serious errors in the administration of Coventry City Football Club is a crucial development in this saga.

“That is what all the publicly available documentation makes clear – from the 2008 board minutes that recently came to light right through to the last set of filed accounts in 2012. It is also what the Football League’s own regulations say should be the case.

“It is therefore deeply disappointing that they have waited until now – with the administration process almost over – to make this admission.

"But fortunately there is still time to resolve this matter. The joint administrators have not yet liquidated the club so there is still time for a proper administration process to be run – one based on all the facts – that provides a fair outcome for creditors, for prospective purchasers of the club, and most of all for Sky Blues fans themselves.”

AFCCOVENTRY · Aug 16, 2013

Looks as of the whole admin process can be re-run knowing players contracts are in LtD.

Enter Haskell and Byng again!

Bennets Afro · Aug 16, 2013

This news by Clarke, is this his way of trying to redeem the situation before ltd gets liquidated and start the whole process off again?

Hobo · Aug 16, 2013

It's not asset stripping it is potentially illegal in company law to put mechanisms in place to the detriment of potential bidders.

oldskyblue58 · Aug 16, 2013

Fedupskybluesfan said:
You are correct, but just to throw another one in the pot. As Holdings was and is the original company could it be that when they dropped out of the premier league the FL placed the GS in the wrong company as the PL share would of been with holdings as Ltd did not exist until 1995. Just a question???

Firstly when the original company was split it was done with written approval from the FA and FL. In which case everyone knew where the share and it was in CCFC Ltd. When they got relegated it would have been CCFC Ltd that exchanged the share with I think Fulham as they went up. In 2008 when SISU took over there are Board minutes stating they knew where the share was in CCFC ltd. The FL have also confirmed that in March 2013 the share resided in CCFC Ltd until they took it back. Dont think there was any real confusion

SkyBlue76 · Aug 16, 2013

Hobo said:
It's not asset stripping it is potentially illegal in company law to put mechanisms in place to the detriment of potential bidders.

Thanks, Hobo.

This has to be challenged. Hope the latest ACL statement is true, that there is still time to complete the administration based on all the facts.

Godiva · Aug 16, 2013

SkyBlue76 said:
Does that really make any difference? The player registrations were all in LTD in 2011, so if SISU deliberately started putting contracts into Holdings after that point (which by FL admission no other club has done) isn't this a sign that they were taking a deliberate action to split the company to protect itself if it went into administration - isn't this still asset stripping?

I don't know ... it's very complicated. If the golden share was actually given to holdings, then moving the players to holdings could be seen as an attempt to comply with FL regulations?

Dhinsa's_Millions · Aug 16, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
the player contracts were taken out in CCFC H, TF confirmed this in March....... the registrations(at least some) were in CCFC Ltd - there was some registrations listed in the administrators initial report £466k. I suspect new contracts were completed in August 2011 when there was the hoohar following relegation about bonuses. The £466K i suspect related to contracts/registrations that ended in june 2013 so have no current value

Contracts and registrations have to be filed at FL ....... and they should be in the same company as the golden share because no other company is a member of the FL

How they have been allowed to cover this up for as long as they have even when people were asking valid questions months ago is staggering.

Way before this there were questions asked of Dulieu in relation to the reason Otium existed in the first place and it was 'normal business practice'. They seem to have had this creative accountancy planned all along.

AFCCOVENTRY · Aug 16, 2013

FURTHER UPDATE: ACL renews appeal to League to refer complaint to FA, & seeks to revert liquidation process which saw 10pt deduction

CarpyCov84 · Aug 16, 2013

carpycov84 said:
acl/ccc should be looking to legal action to reverse the liquidation & start the bidding process again !

afccoventry said:
further update: Acl renews appeal to league to refer complaint to fa, & seeks to revert liquidation process which saw 10pt deduction

good !!!

RoboCCFC90 · Aug 16, 2013

AFCCOVENTRY said:
ACL statement :

An ACL spokesman said: “The Football League’s admission that it has made serious errors in the administration of Coventry City Football Club is a crucial development in this saga.

“That is what all the publicly available documentation makes clear – from the 2008 board minutes that recently came to light right through to the last set of filed accounts in 2012. It is also what the Football League’s own regulations say should be the case.

“It is therefore deeply disappointing that they have waited until now – with the administration process almost over – to make this admission.

"But fortunately there is still time to resolve this matter. The joint administrators have not yet liquidated the club so there is still time for a proper administration process to be run – one based on all the facts – that provides a fair outcome for creditors, for prospective purchasers of the club, and most of all for Sky Blues fans themselves.”

Is this possible?

Of course we would all like to see a fair Administration process.

If so one request from me, please don't appoint Paul Appleton.

Godiva · Aug 16, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
Firstly when the original company was split it was done with written approval from the FA and FL. In which case everyone knew where the share and it was in CCFC Ltd. When they got relegated it would have been CCFC Ltd that exchanged the share with I think Fulham as they went up. In 2008 when SISU took over there are Board minutes stating they knew where the share was in CCFC ltd. The FL have also confirmed that in March 2013 the share resided in CCFC Ltd until they took it back. Dont think there was any real confusion

Will this all surface during the liquidators investigations, or does it require a special investigation?

AFCCOVENTRY · Aug 16, 2013

: LATEST: response to come from #CCFC to exclusive of League admitting errors in registering players

theferret · Aug 16, 2013

SkyBlue76 said:
Thanks, Hobo.

This has to be challenged. Hope the latest ACL statement is true, that there is still time to complete the administration based on all the facts.

Isn't it all academic though? Would any of the other bidders really have been in a position to offer a better deal to creditors than SISU/Otium - regardless of what assets were in Ltd?

I suspect not, although we cannot know for sure, so an interesting development, albeit one that makes the whole situation even messier.

AFCCOVENTRY · Aug 16, 2013

I can see sisu starting legal against league and acl challenging admin decision in court now.

SkyBlue76 · Aug 16, 2013

AFCCOVENTRY said:
FURTHER UPDATE: ACL renews appeal to League to refer complaint to FA, & seeks to revert liquidation process which saw 10pt deduction

I'm kicking myself for getting my hopes up again. But SURELY this has to go above the FL now. They have admitted making mistakes, mistakes that have impacted on the fairness of the administration process. Yet they wait MONTHS before admitting it, until it is nearly too late to rectify. This has GOT to go higher than the FL. They clearly are not competent enough to handle this situation.

AFCCOVENTRY · Aug 16, 2013

The other companies had no idea what they were bidding for. Only sisu know so they were always going to win.

oldskyblue58 · Aug 16, 2013

Godiva said:
Will this all surface during the liquidators investigations, or does it require a special investigation?

It should already be known by the administrator Godiva - but his angle is that it is all to do with beneficial ownership which quite frankly is tosh in my opinion

CarpyCov84 · Aug 16, 2013

CarpyCov84 said:
ACL/CCC should be looking to legal action to reverse the liquidation & start the bidding process again !

oldskyblue58 said:
It should already be known by the administrator Godiva - but his angle is that it is all to do with beneficial ownership which quite frankly is tosh in my opinion

In your opinion what will come
Of this realistically ???

ccfcmustang · Aug 16, 2013

The outcome will be nothing. guaranteed

Football league admit incompetance!!! (1 Viewer)

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