Fugazi (8 Viewers)

[Grendel]

It would seem we are in the deepest most troubled times in the clubs 130 year history.

We have owners whose strategy is to put it mildly unclear. A new stadium concept is the best way forward (even the Sky Blue Trusts new friend Nicky believes this as revealed in an article by the CET today) but the belief that this organisation can deliver this is very, very small. The new stadium idea is possible as I have found five clubs who are targeting to move in around 3 seasons time, have planning permission and have the land identified or purchased. This makes the reasons given of delay by our owners even more dubious.

To compound this we have the disturbing spectacle of a franchise club entering the city and seemingly being welcomed by the whole sporting community. We hear lots of things about these people and the reasons why we should prefer them to the current incumbents;

They know how to treat people

Well, they certainly are straightforward in having total disregard for their existing customers in moving their club some 80 miles north. I can't quite see the red carpet rolled out for our current owners if we moved to Warrington but of course I could be wrong

They know how to do a deal

Well yes they do. Like any scavenger they look at targeting the weak and the vulnerable and exploit them by forcing them to agree a price and lease which the current incumbent was never going to be offered. The actions of a typically ruthless hedge-fund. Now the people of Coventry they do know a little bit about those bad hedge funds and always steer clear of them -- unless of course they are an inset species from Malta - then we just turn the other cheek or positively welcome them aboard

They are honest people.

Well yes they have been losing money every year and under one regime left unpaid creditors, they have assured fans they would never move from the south...oh let's move on

We have the Council -- the caring community council. They assure us that the fans of the existing clubs have nothing to fear. Well yes that's good then as the council are always comforting in such difficult times I mean;

- ACL only have 10% of its revenue from the club
- ACL is financially secure
- The offer to the club of the half the ground on a 40 year lease for £7 million is a fair price
- This business is valued at £12 million
- Hell will freeze over
- £1.3 million a year rent is perfectly fair

Well all the above must be true as their is little angst shown especially from the Trust

Oh yes the Trust -- the supporters body. It represents the fans'. Well it welcomes the franchise and supports its strategy and it supports the council so it certainly represents those fans. I am sure it has a well thought out strategy and vision for the club going forward -- it is just a bit shy about declaring it.

Then there is this forum. Over-run by certain individuals seemingly revelling in the clubs decline and publically supporting this brave new Maltese Hedge Fund and its charming business ethics.

Yes its all really gone Fugazi. The worst thing about this is most seem to be revelling in the moment. I am sure they all know better than me.

 

---

[Samo]

It would seem we are in the deepest most troubled times in the clubs 130 year history. Yes

We have owners whose strategy is to put it mildly unclear. A new stadium concept is the best way forward (even the Sky Blue Trusts new friend Nicky believes this as revealed in an article by the CET today) but the belief that this organisation can deliver this is very, very small. The new stadium idea is possible as I have found five clubs who are targeting to move in around 3 seasons time, have planning permission and have the land identified or purchased. This makes the reasons given of delay by our owners even more dubious.

To compound this we have the disturbing spectacle of a franchise club entering the city and seemingly being welcomed by the whole sporting community. We hear lots of things about these people and the reasons why we should prefer them to the current incumbents;

They know how to treat people

Well, they certainly are straightforward in having total disregard for their existing customers in moving their club some 80 miles north. I can't quite see the red carpet rolled out for our current owners if we moved to Warrington but of course I could be wrong

They know how to do a deal

Well yes they do. Like any scavenger they look at targeting the weak and the vulnerable and exploit them by forcing them to agree a price and lease which the current incumbent was never going to be offered. The actions of a typically ruthless hedge-fund. Now the people of Coventry they do know a little bit about those bad hedge funds and always steer clear of them -- unless of course they are an inset species from Malta - then we just turn the other cheek or positively welcome them aboard

They are honest people.

Well yes they have been losing money every year and under one regime left unpaid creditors, they have assured fans they would never move from the south...oh let's move on

We have the Council -- the caring community council. They assure us that the fans of the existing clubs have nothing to fear. Well yes that's good then as the council are always comforting in such difficult times I mean;

- ACL only have 10% of its revenue from the club
- ACL is financially secure
- The offer to the club of the half the ground on a 40 year lease for £7 million is a fair price
- This business is valued at £12 million
- Hell will freeze over
- £1.3 million a year rent is perfectly fair

Well all the above must be true as their is little angst shown especially from the Trust

Oh yes the Trust -- the supporters body. It represents the fans'. Well it welcomes the franchise and supports its strategy and it supports the council so it certainly represents those fans. I am sure it has a well thought out strategy and vision for the club going forward -- it is just a bit shy about declaring it.

Then there is this forum. Over-run by certain individuals seemingly revelling in the clubs decline and publically supporting this brave new Maltese Hedge Fund and its charming business ethics.

Yes its all really gone Fugazi. The worst thing about this is most seem to be revelling in the moment. I am sure they all know better than me.

Yes its very odd isn't it? Most are so desperate for Sisu's demise they seem OK that the club goes down the toilet with them.

 

[LB87ccfc]

It would seem we are in the deepest most troubled times in the clubs 130 year history.

We have owners whose strategy is to put it mildly unclear. A new stadium concept is the best way forward (even the Sky Blue Trusts new friend Nicky believes this as revealed in an article by the CET today) but the belief that this organisation can deliver this is very, very small. The new stadium idea is possible as I have found five clubs who are targeting to move in around 3 seasons time, have planning permission and have the land identified or purchased. This makes the reasons given of delay by our owners even more dubious.

To compound this we have the disturbing spectacle of a franchise club entering the city and seemingly being welcomed by the whole sporting community. We hear lots of things about these people and the reasons why we should prefer them to the current incumbents;

They know how to treat people

Well, they certainly are straightforward in having total disregard for their existing customers in moving their club some 80 miles north. I can't quite see the red carpet rolled out for our current owners if we moved to Warrington but of course I could be wrong

They know how to do a deal

Well yes they do. Like any scavenger they look at targeting the weak and the vulnerable and exploit them by forcing them to agree a price and lease which the current incumbent was never going to be offered. The actions of a typically ruthless hedge-fund. Now the people of Coventry they do know a little bit about those bad hedge funds and always steer clear of them -- unless of course they are an inset species from Malta - then we just turn the other cheek or positively welcome them aboard

They are honest people.

Well yes they have been losing money every year and under one regime left unpaid creditors, they have assured fans they would never move from the south...oh let's move on

We have the Council -- the caring community council. They assure us that the fans of the existing clubs have nothing to fear. Well yes that's good then as the council are always comforting in such difficult times I mean;

- ACL only have 10% of its revenue from the club
- ACL is financially secure
- The offer to the club of the half the ground on a 40 year lease for £7 million is a fair price
- This business is valued at £12 million
- Hell will freeze over
- £1.3 million a year rent is perfectly fair

Well all the above must be true as their is little angst shown especially from the Trust

Oh yes the Trust -- the supporters body. It represents the fans'. Well it welcomes the franchise and supports its strategy and it supports the council so it certainly represents those fans. I am sure it has a well thought out strategy and vision for the club going forward -- it is just a bit shy about declaring it.

Then there is this forum. Over-run by certain individuals seemingly revelling in the clubs decline and publically supporting this brave new Maltese Hedge Fund and its charming business ethics.

Yes its all really gone Fugazi. The worst thing about this is most seem to be revelling in the moment. I am sure they all know better than me.

Grendal, You get alot of stick on here sometimes and sometimes its deserved, but this is a brilliant post and on the money.

Unfortunately the trust are so far up themselves and in love with the council after also trying to get in bed with Fisher and co, they simply do not represent the fans, and are half arsed idiots who have only themselves on the agenda and not the real fan base.

I for one cannot stand the trust and their poxy voice that sprouts hot air bunch of tossers in my view, but that is my view which everyone is entitled too an opinion.

I just cannot wait to post on here in 2 years time, when everyone is reminiscing about the good and bad times, complaining, bitching, moaning about what if.. what if we actually stood up for what is ours, what if we took more brash action, what if we did not stand aback and let what is our club crumble around us.

What if we didn't all wank over the likes of Uncle Joe and Hoffman at away games, thanking them and being nice as pie ( something that I find disturbing to say the least considering shares were forced over by one individual to this cancer)

What if we forced a blanket ban on sales so SISU REALLY DID have no finance coming in to the club, as a backer would you back a business with no revenue streams whatsoever?

Il still be here in 2 years when this Cancer demolishes the once great club we all love and we are the next Hereford United, and I will say.. I told you so but you all backed the brilliant genius trust the savior of CCFC.

 

[chiefdave]

I can only think that people have so much hate for SISU it is stopping them from seeing any other issues. It seems as soon as you ask a question of any other party involved you somehow become a SISU supporter.

 

[Nick]

I can only think that people have so much hate for SISU it is stopping them from seeing any other issues. It seems as soon as you ask a question of any other party involved you somehow become a SISU supporter.

Your badge is in the post...

 

[shy_tall_knight]

Hi Grendel, a good post but on need a bit more as I am having continuing debates with local WASPs fans


ACL only have 10% of its revenue from the club- Do you dispute this, is this what PWKH claimed, without access to the accounts, I tend to think it was a lot higher than 10%, the famous pie money, parking, corporate hospitality - it was more than just rent and the Northants move & WASPS getting so cheap helped prove this
- ACL is financially secure - see above
- The offer to the club of the half the ground on a 40 year lease for £7 million is a fair price - when was this offer made ?
- This business is valued at £12 million but haven't WASPS paid more £5.2 purchase price plus servicing the loan of £11m ?.
- Hell will freeze over - Is this Mutton's comments
- £1.3 million a year rent is perfectly fair clearly not, IMO ACL saw this as an investment and got carried away with the venture, they clearly had limited respect for CCFC as the anchor tenant however SISU's tactics failed as they were constantly outmaneuvered. SISU should have gone on a charm offensive with the fans to get them onside but they failed and ultimately may have helped destroy this club beyond repair.

WASPS are here to stay, I will not renew my ST as I find it too difficult to see the club's demise whilst a well run opportunists - WASPS got it on the cheap much to the pleasure of so many locals. Met up with a load of fans ex-coventrians most of them who met up for the WASPS game, a chance for a pre Xmas drink and to watch quality rugby, they don't dislike CCFC just don't care either, they will probably go to about 6 WASPS games a season, not really WASPS fans just general rugby fans who like to see it at the top level.

 

[chiefdave]

Can't answer for Grendel but I can make my own comments

ACL only have 10% of its revenue from the club- Do you dispute this, is this what PWKH claimed, without access to the accounts, I tend to think it was a lot higher than 10%, the famous pie money, parking, corporate hospitality - it was more than just rent and the Northants move & WASPS getting so cheap helped prove this
ACL is financially secure - see above

If both these things that were oft repeated by CCC & Higgs are true then all the councillors who voted yes to the sale should be hung in Broadgate as they have sold ACL to Wasps for a bargain basement price.

This business is valued at £12 million but haven't WASPS paid more £5.2 purchase price plus servicing the loan of £11m?

The value of the business is £12 million with a loan outstanding, Wasps have paid less than half that and the loan is still outstanding. It can't be part of the purchase, it's money being loaned out being repaid not new money coming in. if you're going to factor in things happening in the future the main thing to factor in is the shortly due stadium naming rights renewal. There's a good chance this will bring in more than Wasps have paid meaning to all intents and purposes CCC have gifted the stadium to Wasps free of charge.

 

[lordsummerisle]

I can only think that people have so much hate for SISU it is stopping them from seeing any other issues. It seems as soon as you ask a question of any other party involved you somehow become a SISU supporter.

Welcome to the party!

 

[shy_tall_knight]

Can't answer for Grendel but I can make my own comments



If both these things that were oft repeated by CCC & Higgs are true then all the councillors who voted yes to the sale should be hung in Broadgate as they have sold ACL to Wasps for a bargain basement price.



The value of the business is £12 million with a loan outstanding, Wasps have paid less than half that and the loan is still outstanding. It can't be part of the purchase, it's money being loaned out being repaid not new money coming in. if you're going to factor in things happening in the future the main thing to factor in is the shortly due stadium naming rights renewal. There's a good chance this will bring in more than Wasps have paid meaning to all intents and purposes CCC have gifted the stadium to Wasps free of charge.

But who is paying the loan, if paying off the loan, is a condition of the sale then sure its part of the sales price - or is this part of the confidential information that hasn't been released.

How much are stadium naming rights worth - as the rumor is it will be JLR as part of their WASPS link

 

[chiefdave]

But who is paying the loan, if paying off the loan, is a condition of the sale then sure its part of the sales price - or is this part of the confidential information that hasn't been released.

How much are stadium naming rights worth - as the rumor is it will be JLR as part of their WASPS link

I tell you what, how much is your house worth? How about you loan me that much money and then I'll buy your house off you. I won't actually pay you anything other than repaying the loan but that will be OK won't it?

Ricoh paid £10m for 10 years which adjusted for inflation is over £13m so even if Wasps only get half that they have made back more than they paid for the stadium in under 12 months. Great deal the council made there don't you think?

 

[albatross]

We could debate this for weeks and still not be right but it seems clear that the revenues for ACL were declining and the business seems to have been slightly north of break even.


The sale of ACL shares and the business would have to be at a fair market value at the time of sale. In the past £12m or more may have been the value of ACL (it is a £100+ million project) with revenues from the football club etc... Once those revenues were removed the business became distressed as per the concerns from the bank and the council stepping in to protect the asset at a commercial rate of return.

Probably all of the values may well have been correct at any single point in time in the past if a deal was to be done at that point

 

[torchomatic]

Well, let's hope those who say the Council are blameless in all this start to ask some questions then. We were told quite clearly that the Ricoh did not need the football club to survive.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-council-leader-ann-lucas-5677830

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ists-landlord--confused-says-Neil-Moxley.html

PWKH: 'Nine per cent of the income from the Ricoh Arena is football-related,' adds Knatchbull-Hugessen, 'we do have a plan B. We have been working on one. We would be pretty daft if we hadn't been.'

We could debate this for weeks and still not be right but it seems clear that the revenues for ACL were declining and the business seems to have been slightly not of break even.

 

[Mr T - Sukka!]

What position does this Fugazi play?

Is he Iranian or something?

New striker for January.

 

[albatross]

I tell you what, how much is your house worth? How about you loan me that much money and then I'll buy your house off you. I won't actually pay you anything other than repaying the loan but that will be OK won't it?

Ricoh paid £10m for 10 years which adjusted for inflation is over £13m so even if Wasps only get half that they have made back more than they paid for the stadium in under 12 months. Great deal the council made there don't you think?

Not a reflection of what has happened. There has been a cash transaction and the taking on of a commercial Mortgage / loan. The loan from the council is not free it attracts interest the same as every commercial loan and given the current environment it is probably making more of a return for the council than having it sat in a deposit account as it comes from their reserve.

 

[torchomatic]

Of course it's a true reflection. CCFC paid more in rent without gaining any revenue than Wasps paid CCC for it. Disgusting.

 

[Grendel]

Not a reflection of what has happened. There has been a cash transaction and the taking on of a commercial Mortgage / loan. The loan from the council is not free it attracts interest the same as every commercial loan and given the current environment it is probably making more of a return for the council than having it sat in a deposit account as it comes from their reserve.

That's interesting - the council borrowed at a rate we believe of around 3.4% - now you clearly have some evidence to show that the newly structured loan to our friends in Malta was at a higher rate hence the profit.

Please provide a link albatross this is genuinely of interest.

 

[albatross]

Of course it's a true reflection. CCFC paid more in rent without gaining any revenue than Wasps paid CCC for it. Disgusting.

Isn't that how the whole buy to let market property market works.? if i am not in a position to buy i rent. The landlord then services his running costs and makes a return and usually with a house the value increases.

In the case of ACL that value of the business was decreasing.

So did WASPS get it for a good price. you bet they did, but any organisation could have made an offer and done a similar deal.

 

[chiefdave]

Not a reflection of what has happened. There has been a cash transaction and the taking on of a commercial Mortgage / loan. The loan from the council is not free it attracts interest the same as every commercial loan and given the current environment it is probably making more of a return for the council than having it sat in a deposit account as it comes from their reserve.

it's doesn't matter what rate the loan is at its future repayment is not part of the sale price. It's just spin plain and simple. Wasps have paid under £6m.

 

[chiefdave]

In the case of ACL that value of the business was decreasing.

So what you're basically saying is when CCC kept saying the business had no issues without us being there, was doing wonderfully well, had bookings coming out of their ears and fantastic future projections they were lying?

 

[italiahorse]

How many times can we dig up the same opinionated information?
We don't know all the facts because all parties are only feeding out the ones that supports their position but no detail.

Wasps are here to stay, people will do what they want, regardless of me or the other posters on here.
We can vent all your anger at fellow posters, we can chastise each other, we can wind each other up but all deals are done for the next 4 years at least.

We need to get some hope for the future, something to look forward too.
Sisu need to tell us where we are with the current deal, talk to Wasps about the long term plans and get the best deal they can.
If it does not work then we need to understand why. If the new stadium is the only way then show us the details of how it stacks up.

If it shows that we are stuffed then we actually may need to build a smaller stadium and settle with the fact that we are League one club and get on with it.

 

[albatross]

Grendel, the money to purchase the debt from the Bank was funded by the councils cash reserve. So money that had to hand and not borrowed. Rather than have this cash in deposit in a bank (at minimal interest rate and probably losing value when you take into consideration inflation) they used it to make a commercial loan to ACL which gave them a commercial rate of return hence the judge kicked it out as it could not be closed as state aid.

Its reported here http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-owners-back-high-6351066

Other councils invest in other activities to get a return and many got their fingers burnt investing millions in the Icelandic banks.

 

[albatross]

So what you're basically saying is when CCC kept saying the business had no issues without us being there, was doing wonderfully well, had bookings coming out of their ears and fantastic future projections they were lying?

I am not saying they were lying but they would have been putting their best foot forward as they say.

The only real factual measure is the accounts filed at Companies House , they do not lie and are stament of fact, the rest is to some degree an interpretation by which ever party is trying to make a point.

 

[lordsummerisle]

We could debate this for weeks and still not be right but it seems clear that the revenues for ACL were declining and the business seems to have been slightly north of break even.


The sale of ACL shares and the business would have to be at a fair market value at the time of sale. In the past £12m or more may have been the value of ACL (it is a £100+ million project) with revenues from the football club etc... Once those revenues were removed the business became distressed as per the concerns from the bank and the council stepping in to protect the asset at a commercial rate of return.

Probably all of the values may well have been correct at any single point in time in the past if a deal was to be done at that point

Basically everybody connected with ACL has been lying then?

It seems(thought not particularly you), that many of the same people who were adamant that ACL was doing well, imdeed thriving, without the club, now say that it had to be sold to Wasps as it had been "distressed".

 

[chiefdave]

Grendel, the money to purchase the debt from the Bank was funded by the councils cash reserve. So money that had to hand and not borrowed. Rather than have this cash in deposit in a bank (at minimal interest rate and probably losing value when you take into consideration inflation) they used it to make a commercial loan to ACL which gave them a commercial rate of return hence the judge kicked it out as it could not be closed as state aid.

I spoke to Cllr Maton about this and he claimed that it was only temporarily taken from the councils cash reserve and that the reserve was later replenished using a loan obtained by the council at a preferential rate.

 

[albatross]

it's doesn't matter what rate the loan is at its future repayment is not part of the sale price. It's just spin plain and simple. Wasps have paid under £6m.

is that how you consider the purchase price of your house? just your deposit is the total value of the deal? the bank will have a charge on the balance , same as CCC.

Just depends on your point of view which numbers you chose to include

 

[Grendel]

I spoke to Cllr Maton about this and he claimed that it was only temporarily taken from the councils cash reserve and that the reserve was later replenished using a loan obtained by the council at a preferential rate.

Correct they took a loan from central government and someone on here posted details of if and that the likely rate was 3.4% for such loans.

 

[chiefdave]

I am not saying they were lying but they would have been putting their best foot forward as they say.

The only real factual measure is the accounts filed at Companies House , they do not lie and are stament of fact, the rest is to some degree an interpretation by which ever party is trying to make a point.

29: Can ACL and the Ricoh survive without CCFC?ACL: This is not what we want – but yes we can. We have detailed business plans supporting this. ACL is a solvent and successful business. Our accounts, which have been lodged with Companies House demonstrates this.
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]CCFC: I [/FONT]personally doubt it – our analysis of the ACL business show the company’s business model to be very challenging without the club and possibly require further cash injections from the Council. Without the revenue currently received from CCFC the council will be called on for more money to prop up a failing business in the future.

That to me looks very much like ACL saying they have a business plan showing that they do not need CCFC. If this is true why would the value be decreasing at such an alarming rate?

 

[Ashdown]

God it's all so boring now, round and round. Despite the stupid 'Council lovers' comments and 'SISU sympathisers' jibes, surely most people know by now roughly what happened and why, who played what part and what could/should have been done. I'd kill for the old days when people spoke about Xmas at this time of the year, or beer or cheese or favourite actresses/singers or next years holidays ?!

 

[Grendel]

is that how you consider the purchase price of your house? just your deposit is the total value of the deal? the bank will have a charge on the balance , same as CCC.

Just depends on your point of view which numbers you chose to include

So sisu were right when they said the business was worthless? The £12 million valuation considered the debt if £14 million then? So ACL was worth minus £2 million? So what the fuck were people saying we should buy the Higgs share for £7 million? That's outrageous.

At leash you now agree with sisu that ACL was a worthless business and the charities share in particular was worth zilch.

 

[albatross]

Basically everybody connected with ACL has been lying then?

It seems(thought not particularly you), that many of the same people who were adamant that ACL was doing well, imdeed thriving, without the club, now say that it had to be sold to Wasps as it had been "distressed".

Not necessarily ACL was making money that is a fact in the accounts ... just not much money ... The bank was becoming obviously becoming concerned the longer CCFC stayed out of town .. the very reason for the move.

 

[Grendel]

Not necessarily ACL was making money that is a fact in the accounts ... just not much money ... The bank was becoming obviously becoming concerned the longer CCFC stayed out of town .. the very reason for the move.

What bank? I thought the only loan was from council reserves? Why would they be concerned at something valued at only 9% of total revenue?

 

[albatross]

So sisu were right when they said the business was worthless? The £12 million valuation considered the debt if £14 million then? So ACL was worth minus £2 million? So what the fuck were people saying we should buy the Higgs share for £7 million? That's outrageous.

At leash you now agree with sisu that ACL was a worthless business and the charities share in particular was worth zilch.

No i don't agree with your post and that is not what I have said

 

[Grendel]

No i don't agree with your post and that is not what I have said

I think you are struggling

 

[chiefdave]

So sisu were right when they said the business was worthless? The £12 million valuation considered the debt if £14 million then? So ACL was worth minus £2 million? So what the fuck were people saying we should buy the Higgs share for £7 million? That's outrageous.

At leash you now agree with sisu that ACL was a worthless business and the charities share in particular was worth zilch.

I'd love to do business with some of the people on here. By the method we are apparently supposed to use CCC and Higgs should have paid SISU £2m to take the stadium off their hands!

 

[albatross]

What bank? I thought the only loan was from council reserves? Why would they be concerned at something valued at only 9% of total revenue?

from the link

The oral hearing follows Justice Males’ rejection of the case in August - which was based on each sides’ paper submissions. He had ruled there was no arguable case that the council’s loan to ACL had constituted an unlawful “state aid”.
Instead, he judged it was made on commercial terms to protect the council’s investment in ACL when ACL’s bank was threatening to call in its mortgage debt.
He had also ruled that - had the council not bought out ACL’s Yorkshire Bank mortgage and refinanced it as a loan to the Ricoh firm - ACL could have become insolvent in circumstances where the club was withholding rent “as a means of exerting pressure in commercial negotiations”.