General Election 2019 thread (51 Viewers)

[Walsgrave]

I’m not suggesting that I’m saying they have zero experience of actual real life

I guess if there was a crises in pre school education then we should have votes for 4 year olds

I'm not sure what 'real life you're referring to but if it's another planet then maybe I understand. Education, apprenticeships, getting even the smallest foot onto the housing ladder are all real world activities! You seem to think that because some issues affect older voters, this amounts to an advancement of the argument that we should strip younger voters of their say!

 

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[shmmeee]

Home ownership? So virtually everyone under 30 is out then. What about the rich 20-somethings living off daddy while Joe Bloggs got a job at 16 straight from school? What about older generation who have no idea of the issues of todays regarding the environment or the housing crisis? The ones that constantly talk about 'the foreigners' despite often being the people who don't actually know any? What about those youngsters that are caring for relatives or had children at a young age? There is way more to understanding life issues than economic ones.

There are many issues regarding voting age, but for me the right to put an X in a box should be available to those younger than those who are legally considered responsible enough to have and care for children.

So, puberty?

 

[Grendel]

Home ownership? So virtually everyone under 30 is out then. What about the rich 20-somethings living off daddy while Joe Bloggs got a job at 16 straight from school? What about older generation who have no idea of the issues of todays regarding the environment or the housing crisis? The ones that constantly talk about 'the foreigners' despite often being the people who don't actually know any? What about those youngsters that are caring for relatives or had children at a young age? There is way more to understanding life issues than economic ones.

There are many issues regarding voting age, but for me the right to put an X in a box should be available to those younger than those who are legally considered responsible enough to have and care for children.

I also said taxation - very few get jobs at 16 - I just wish people would be honest and say they want it as more people are easily radicalised when young and more likely to be socialist then and cringe about it when they are older

 

[shmmeee]

Can we all agree that young/old doesn’t matter. We should IQ test at the polling booth?

(This is a joke)

 

[shmmeee]

I agree that the Conservatives have put in place some decent measures to help the working class - the income tax threshold rise for instance. But don't forget that correlation does not imply causation. Unemployment during Labour's firts few years was significantly lower than that of the Thatcher years, and the global financial crisis put paid to this impressive record continuing.

We also have to contend with the fact that although employment offers a form of security, it alone is not sufficient to help the working class - this needs to be supplemented with good quality conditions, high morale, etc. On these aspects, I cannot find many positives with recent Conservative Party policy.

IT threshold increase disproportionately benefits higher earners.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I'm sure maths didn't work like this when I was at school.

Makes me laugh when people talk about the shadow front bench when you've got utter lightweights like Hancock in government. The bloke is an utter fraud, watched a Tony Blair video once but completely vacuous

 

[Walsgrave]

I also said taxation - very few get jobs at 16 - I just wish people would be honest and say they want it as more people are easily radicalised when young and more likely to be socialist then and cringe about it when they are older

I completely beg to differ - most people I went to sixth form with were holding down jobs while in full time education, which itself no mean feat despite what you might think. Those who did not attend sixth form were also incredibly hard working - in apprenticeships, doing their NVQs etc while being full time employed. Calling young people socialist for desiring to have a vote on what they want is akin to calling older people autocrats for wanting to protect their property.

 

[fernandopartridge]

People should not be able to vote until 21

Mental age?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I also said taxation - very few get jobs at 16 - I just wish people would be honest and say they want it as more people are easily radicalised when young and more likely to be socialist then and cringe about it when they are older

All that tells you is people are selfish. Once they're in the club, shut the doors.

Besides as you get older you get more set in your ways. Change becomes a more scary proposition and familiarity becomes a cosy blanket to cling to.

 

[Grendel]

I completely beg to differ - most people I went to sixth form with were holding down jobs while in full time education, which itself no mean feat despite what you might think. Those who did not attend sixth form were also incredibly hard working - in apprenticeships, doing their NVQs etc while being full time employed. Calling young people socialist for desiring to have a vote on what they want is akin to calling older people autocrats for wanting to protect their property.

How many countries in the EU have voting age at 16?

 

[shmmeee]

I completely beg to differ - most people I went to sixth form with were holding down jobs while in full time education, which itself no mean feat despite what you might think. Those who did not attend sixth form were also incredibly hard working - in apprenticeships, doing their NVQs etc while being full time employed. Calling young people socialist for desiring to have a vote on what they want is akin to calling older people autocrats for wanting to protect their property.

For reference. When someone says “young people” in relation to the Labour vote. They mean people under 45. That’s when the switch to majority Tory happens.

 

[Walsgrave]

How many countries in the EU have voting age at 16?

I haven't suggested that the age should be lowered to 16 - merely that raising it to 21 is ludicrous. If the government were considering lowering the age (which they have), then there would need to be a consultation/full review - which would not be objective in practice because whoever's in power would advance their own case for/against

 

[shmmeee]

All that tells you is people are selfish. Once they're in the club, shut the doors.

Besides as you get older you get more set in your ways. Change becomes a more scary proposition and familiarity becomes a cosy blanket to cling to.

Lots of neuroscience evidence for this. New synapses harder to make. More stuck in their ways and less capable of divergent thinking.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

That’s exactly what a leader would do

You can imagine it can't you...although he says 50/50 - we know that 52/48 is not a significant enough majority for some.

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[Grendel]

All that tells you is people are selfish. Once they're in the club, shut the doors.

Besides as you get older you get more set in your ways. Change becomes a more scary proposition and familiarity becomes a cosy blanket to cling to.

So how many countries set the age at 16?

 

[shmmeee]

You can imagine it can't you...although he says 50/50 - we know that 52/48 is not a significant enough majority for some.

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Whats Nigel Farage got to do with this?

 

[Grendel]

Lots of neuroscience evidence for this. New synapses harder to make. More stuck in their ways and less capable of divergent thinking.

Certainly applies to you and your old man

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I'm sure maths didn't work like this when I was at school.

How to tie yourself up in knots...Lesson 1

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[shmmeee]

I’m convinced Matt Hancock was actually an actor on The Thick of It who accidentally ended up in government.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

On the radio this morning, the general view of the "experts" was both Boris and Jezza are making pledges on spending that they can't make without something giving - ie. putting taxes up or reigning in the spending.

To be honest, I don't know who to believe in the honesty stakes. Seems a case of who's telling the least porkies.

It is difficult. At least Bojo is bare-faced with his so they don't take much to unravel

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[fatso]

I appreciate that people have different views but I would argue that this time round, Labour are creating the conditions under which that can be made more likely. It is a cliché but education for me is key - and what Labour propose with respect to funding for adult education - both vocational and academic - can help to break down the phenomenon we have today where only tte monied have access to the best opportunities, and where pre-18 achievement determines most people's outcomes in life.

But they are promising what they cant deliver, who is paying for all their manifesto promises, if it were that easy, why hasn't it been delivered already?
Corbyn would bankrupt the nation, with his spend spend spend policy, and to help with the consequences, Then when people wake up and kick labour out of office, the tories (or whoever) inherit a financial nightmare, and they will be forced to re introduce austerity all over again.
We've done the hard work, I cant believe people will vote for a "boom and bust" future all over again.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So how many countries set the age at 16?

That's up there with Mensch's excuse we shouldn't have AV because only 3 other countries do.

I thought the point of Great Britain was we lead, not follow?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The labour candidate in Coventry NW I know will never set foot in the place again once she gets elected

It's no real defence(!) but they're kind of used to it there, anyway.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

There are as many, if not more, issues affecting the young than the old. If we restricted the franchise further to over 21s. we would neglect issues such as age pay gaps, young people getting on the housing ladder etc. I used to take the view that 16 year olds should not get the vote but having been exposed to the ludicrous idea that older peoples' issues matter more etc, I changed my mind.

Part of leadership is about highlighting all the areas of need & providing a realistic vision with a route to get there. So we need the leaders in government to raise young people's issues. The fact that so many don't or they aren't listened to says a lot about the rest of us in general.

On the other hand - heard about some research that showed that bad choices in situations tend to made more frequently by those with less experience of the situation or similar situations.

So one might argue the younger voters are more easily swayed as to what the main issues are, & are more likely to make the wrong choice as to what to do.

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[Grendel]

That's up there with Mensch's excuse we shouldn't have AV because only 3 other countries do.

I thought the point of Great Britain was we lead, not follow?

well we would be following - Argentina, North Korea and Nicaragua

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Maybe we should stop all the senile OAPs voting!

Quite! That is the other side of the same coin...we all know that on the whole as we get older, we get more set in our ways...& if you always do what you've always done - eventually you will be surpassed because what you do is less relevant to what is happening

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[shmmeee]

Part of leadership is about highlighting all the areas of need & providing a realistic vision with a route to get there. So we need the leaders in government to raise young people's issues. The fact that so many don't or they aren't listened to says a lot about the rest of us in general.

On the other hand - heard about some research that showed that bad choices in situations tend to made more frequently by those with less experience of the situation or similar situations.

So one might argue the younger voters are more easily swayed as to what the main issues are, & are more likely to make the wrong choice as to what to do.

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So so patronising to the people that run this country. I raise two kids, have owned property, been married and divorced, started businesses and lead departments. What exactly do you think I’m missing before I unlock the enlightenment you have achieved?

People over 45 grew up with no internet, no climate change, free education, jobs for life, gold plated pensions, cheap housing, etc then have the cheek to pretend they know about “real life”.

Pathetic.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Whats Nigel Farage got to do with this?

Nothing

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[shmmeee]

Nothing

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Whoosh

Farage raises second referendum prospect

 

[Walsgrave]

Part of leadership is about highlighting all the areas of need & providing a realistic vision with a route to get there. So we need the leaders in government to raise young people's issues. The fact that so many don't or they aren't listened to says a lot about the rest of us in general.

On the other hand - heard about some research that showed that bad choices in situations tend to made more frequently by those with less experience of the situation or similar situations.

So one might argue the younger voters are more easily swayed as to what the main issues are, & are more likely to make the wrong choice as to what to do.

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I agree that bad choices are undesirable. Sure, young people have less experience of adult life (an uncontroversial statement by definition!) but the rationale behind giving people a say is all about allowing them to vote on what matters to them at a particular moment in time. So even if they are to make mistakes, then at the time of voting, it is a rational thing to do. It is a bit like the idea of having no regrets - anyone who is acting rationally shouldn't really have any regrets because at one point in time, they actually desired one thing over another. Besides, mistakes are part of human nature, and I personally can't find a compelling reason as to why young people are disproportionately more misguided in their decision making (not just in politics) than older people.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

So so patronising to the people that run this country. I raise two kids, have owned property, been married and divorced, started businesses and lead departments. What exactly do you think I’m missing before I unlock the enlightenment you have achieved?

People over 45 grew up with no internet, no climate change, free education, jobs for life, gold plated pensions, cheap housing, etc then have the cheek to pretend they know about “real life”.

Pathetic.

Don't blame the messenger...you like research, I just relayed the bare bones of some I heard & suggested some options if it is to be believed...but as usual - doesn't take much to get you frothing at the mouth does it?

As for me, I can pretty much hold up a mirror to your experience of life.

As for your last paragraph- how patronising to the over 45s is that? They have the benefit of seeing the rapid changes that have happened & feel deeply for their offspring (the young as in) & what they face in life, & they try to help & guide their offspring through it (maybe not in your experience?)...which is indeed a circle, or spiral. Today's over-45s faced the same amount & intensity of pressure, just different pressures!

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[SkyblueBazza]

Whoosh

Farage raises second referendum prospect

You're assuming I give a toss what Farage says? Or said in this case?

Splat!!!

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[Walsgrave]

Don't blame the messenger...you like research, I just relayed the bare bones of some I heard & suggested some options if it is to be believed...but as usual - doesn't take much to get you frothing at the mouth does it?

As for me, I can pretty much hold up a mirror to your experience of life.

As for your last paragraph- how patronising to the over 45s is that? They have the benefit of seeing the rapid changes that have happened & feel deeply for their offspring (the young as in) & what they face in life, & they try to help & guide their offspring through it (maybe not in your experience?)...which is indeed a circle, or spiral. Today's over-45s faced the same amount & intensity of pressure, just different pressures!

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It really works both ways. Your argument of 'been there, done that', is no stronger than that of 'I'm about to do that; but I want a say on what the conditions are like when I do eventually achieve x and y'. There is nothing preventing older people from actually giving younger people the advice on how to vote - and this will be personal to each individual - but to suggest that the only way to do this is to let older people only decide is completely undemocratic..

 

[Grendel]

So so patronising to the people that run this country. I raise two kids, have owned property, been married and divorced, started businesses and lead departments. What exactly do you think I’m missing before I unlock the enlightenment you have achieved?

People over 45 grew up with no internet, no climate change, free education, jobs for life, gold plated pensions, cheap housing, etc then have the cheek to pretend they know about “real life”.

Pathetic.

Why do you come across as a sad bitter man all the time with a colossal chip on your shoulder

It’s you that’s pathetic and urgently need to address your own failings

 

[M&B Stand]

Im a socialist.

I’ll expand a bit.

My main issue is climate change. The Tories are basically denying it and kicking it into the long grass rather than using it as an opportunity to lead the world and grow the economy.

albeit one who prefers a system underpinned by free market capitalism!