General Election 2019 thread (41 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Jo Swinson just got annihilated all over the place there.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Corbyn confirms he will allow the break up of the union and let Sturgeon have her way in 2 years - incredible admission

Support for independence will drop with a progressive UK government. It will rise with a shit Brexit being forced through and more right wing crap being put through Parliament.

Your fat twat of a mate has done more to destabilise the Union than Corbyn ever could

 

[skybluetony176]

Johnson is a gift for Labour, SNP, Brexit Party, Lim Dems, Plaid Cymru, Monster Raving Looney etc

He’s just terrible.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Johnson is a gift for Labour, SNP, Brexit Party, Lim Dems, Plaid Cymru, Monster Raving Looney etc

He’s just terrible.

What I don't get is his strategy is exactly the same as May's. This year's Strong and Stable Government is Get Brexit Done.

But he gets away with it! I'm still no clearer about their domestic agenda!

 

[skybluetony176]

What I don't get is his strategy is exactly the same as May's. This year's Strong and Stable Government is Get Brexit Done.

But he gets away with it! I'm still no clearer about their domestic agenda!

He certainly gets away with it in the press but I don’t think he’s gotten away with it from this audience tonight, he’s having a car crash.

 

[Walsgrave]

Ethnic minorities who vote Conservative must be going through some kind of heretical thinking!

 

[Astute]

It isn't crap - you argued both of those points I made.

I just want an answer to the question - why is what Corbyn personally thinks and would do so important rather than what the party would do? Would you still vote labour if Corbyn said he was for remain even if Labour wasn't?

Yes. Because the leader would want what I want. Being neutral means they could shift either way. It wouldn't be a massive move. If Corbyn didn't constantly previously go on about getting out of the EU I wouldn't be worried.

Why is it that it is noticeable everywhere but on here?

 

[theferret]

Tony Benn was further left than the current Labour Party. I'm struggling to understand your point here, he was an intellect yes also part credited with "the longest suicide note in history" which was Labour's manifesto in 1983.

As for the Tories, this is the furthest to the right Tory party we've seen. Pritti Patel, Kwasi Koteng, Dim Raab, Liz Truss are ultra Thatcherites who even wrote a book about utterly destroying the regulations that keep people in jobs with reasonable pay and conditions and consumers safe from harm.

The other thing I'd say about them is that Truss and Raab in particular are thick as mince and make their opposite numbers look like mensa candidates.

I've worked in public service or close to it for 16 years now, the last few years in the NHS. Hospitals are in their knees, with massive deficits being forced to outsource services all over the place, all by quite deliberate design through underfunding.

I've not seen one post yet telling me why I should even consider voting Conservative, not one report of anything in their manifesto apart from the pathetic and misleading "Get Brexit Done" soundbite.

Tony Benn was of his time, it is very crude to try to place him politically by modern standards and sensibilities. The world is a different place, the division between right and left is blurred and increasingly meaningless. The world has never been smaller. Money flows across borders electronically in ways that can not have been imagined just 30 years ago. Now, you argue for tax increases on the super-wealthy and the point can very easily be made that the inevitable consequence would be that money would disappear overseas at an alarming rate and the supposed revenues would simply never transpire. With the global financial system being what it is, it is very hard to legislate against that, and to do so would make this country very unattractive for investors. Now, we see tax rates go down and tax take go up. Who'd have thought it.

Tony Benn did shift in his later years. Had he been around now and in his political prime, I doubt very much he'd be banging the same drum he was back then. Anyhow, the point really was that he was an intellect and statesmanlike in how he conducted himself on the political stage. A man you may not have agreed with, but who demanded respect. A far cry from the charlatans we have now.

You can parrot the line about this being the most right-wing Tory party in modern times as much as you like, but it just doesn't stand up. There is no evidence for that, not in this manifesto or the last, where is the evidence of this? I smile at those who cry that workers rights are under threat by our EU exit. It is baseless. The EU insist on very modest minimum standards, standards that this country far exceeds, which it has done by choice, are still in place after nearly 10 years of Tory rule and which in some cases hve been strengthened. Take the minimum wage, it is nothing more than an EU aspiration. Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Austria and others don't even have one. We do, it is amongst the highest and is set to increase further. The workers rights argument and Brexit are a fallacy.

You may be right about certain individuals (Patel for example), but Johnson himself is not particularly right wing at all. I know that doesn't fit the narrative, but it is true.

Lack of investment? There is a case for that, but I'm often confused by those who talk about austerity as though it was an ideological experiment of some sort, when it was simply a reaction to the financial crisis and soaring national debt. There had to be a period of living with our means (that's all austerity is really), and austere measures were implemented across western economies at that time by governments of right and left.

We can argue about the cuts, how deep they went, where they were made and the length of time they were in place, and we'd probably agree on much of that. There is, however, a clear sense that this is going to be reversed. The Conservatives are planning to increase public spending considerably and are even preparing to increase borrowing. Perhaps not a much as you would like, but it certainly doesn't fit in with the 'most right wing Tory party ever' line. I just don't know where this comes from. From where I'm standing, it look more like a move back towards the centre, which is where elections are won ultimately.

 

[Astute]

They were responding specifically to the point that Labour would negotiate a new deal and then campaign against that deal in favour of remain. That was their position when they announced the policy that they seem to have backtracked on.

Campaign in favour of remain? When was that?

Backtracked? That is what worries me.

 

[Grendel]

Jo Swinson is showing why Labour being relatively non-committal on Brexit isn't that bad. Getting it in the neck from both leavers and remainers.

On that subject she could say about unlaterally voting "if LD got a Commons majority you could clearly take that as a mandate that the country wanted to revoke Brexit". If anything it'd be a stronger mandate than a small majority in a 2nd ref IMO.

lol you said they were committed

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Yes. Because the leader would want what I want. Being neutral means they could shift either way. It wouldn't be a massive move. If Corbyn didn't constantly previously go on about getting out of the EU I wouldn't be worried.

Why is it that it is noticeable everywhere but on here?

Thanks for the straight answer but to me that makes no sense. One MP would say he was campaigning for what you wanted. The party overall could be totally against that and 200+ MP's would vote against it in parliament because of party policy. Yet you'd vote for that party because of that one MP?

 

[Grendel]

Well Johnson has an easy ride. It was like an evening at a student union with silly screechy children asking dumb questions

he will not shift from his share of the vote. His real concern will be the car crash that was Swinson - the most ridiculous leader of a party since Michael Foot. Who will vote for that idiot after that?

 

[Grendel]

Thanks for the straight answer but to me that makes no sense. One MP would say he was campaigning for what you wanted. The party overall could be totally against that and 200+ MP's would vote against it in parliament because of party policy. Yet you'd vote for that party because of that one MP?

Oh FFS the policy is neurally stop making an idiot of yourself

 

[Astute]

Thanks for the straight answer but to me that makes no sense. One MP would say he was campaigning for what you wanted. The party overall could be totally against that and 200+ MP's would vote against it in parliament because of party policy. Yet you'd vote for that party because of that one MP?

One MP? So Corbyn is just an MP now?

 

[Astute]

O

Oh FFS the policy is neurally stop making an idiot of yourself

Neurally may have been a typo but is very apt.

 

[theferret]

Ethnic minorities who vote Conservative must be going through some kind of heretical thinking!

Is that a serious comment, surely not? If so, that's incredibly condescending. Are you suggesting that people from ethnic minorities should all subscribe to the same world view and not think for themselves? If an Asian small business owner votes Conservative because, rightly or wrongly, they believe they are more sympathetic to small business and enterprise, then surely that's not a betrayal of their race, and is merely a case of that individual making their own democratic choice? Besides, the Tories are some way ahead of Labour with Sikh and Hindu voters, around 50% from these groups voted Tory at the last election. Muslim voters favour Labour by some distance.

NB. If your comment was said in jest or you were quoting somebody else I withdraw the above completely :happy:

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You can parrot the line about this being the most right-wing Tory party in modern times as much as you like, but it just doesn't stand up. There is no evidence for that, not in this manifesto or the last, where is the evidence of this? I smile at those who cry that workers rights are under threat by our EU exit. It is baseless. The EU insist on very modest minimum standards, standards that this country far exceeds, which it has done by choice, are still in place after nearly 10 years of Tory rule and which in some cases hve been strengthened. Take the minimum wage, it is nothing more than an EU aspiration. Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Austria and others don't even have one. We do, it is amongst the highest and is set to increase further. The workers rights argument and Brexit are a fallacy.

We can argue about the cuts, how deep they went, where they were made and the length of time they were in place, and we'd probably agree on much of that. There is, however, a clear sense that this is going to be reversed. The Conservatives are planning to increase public spending considerably and are even preparing to increase borrowing. Perhaps not a much as you would like, but it certainly doesn't fit in with the 'most right wing Tory party ever' line. I just don't know where this comes from. From where I'm standing, it look more like a move back towards the centre, which is where elections are won ultimately.

1. Proposing to increase military expenditure by faster than the rate of inflation, proposing to reinstate a 3 tier education system, maintaining pay cuts for the public sector while indulging in corporate tax giveaways...yeah nothing right wing in there.

2. If someone spends ten years nicking my money and then pledges to return some of it, he's still not my mate.

Amazing what qualifies as 'the centre' in this country

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well Johnson has an easy ride. It was like an evening at a student union with silly screechy children asking dumb questions

he will not shift from his share of the vote. His real concern will be the car crash that was Swinson - the most ridiculous leader of a party since Michael Foot. Who will vote for that idiot after that?

He was a fat blubbering fool who couldn't hide his disdain for those asking the questions. Of course you will never admit he was shit-even if he literally crapped on the stage you'd find some way of pinning it on the audience. Lost his composure early on and the hostility in the crowd for his bullshit was palpable

 

[Astute]

2. If someone spends ten years nicking my money and then pledges to return some of it, he's still not my mate.

Labour say they will raise many sort of taxes but only 5% will pay more tax. Not sure how that will work out.

 

[Grendel]

He was a fat blubbering fool who couldn't hide his disdain for those asking the questions. Of course you will never admit he was shit-even if he literally crapped on the stage you'd find some way of pinning it on the audience. Lost his composure early on and the hostility in the crowd for his bullshit was palpable

the crowd were supposed to be a fair split - at least you acknowledge the clear biases of the audience

were you one of the silly whining children asking the silly questions and thinking they were oh so clever?

 

[Grendel]

Labour say they will raise many sort of taxes but only 5% will pay more tax. Not sure how that will work out.

It won’t the IFS have said its bullshit

 

[Walsgrave]

Is that a serious comment, surely not? If so, that's incredibly condescending. Are you suggesting that people from ethnic minorities should all subscribe to the same world view and not think for themselves? If an Asian small business owner votes Conservative because, rightly or wrongly, they believe they are more sympathetic to small business and enterprise, then surely that's not a betrayal of their race, and is merely a case of that individual making their own democratic choice? Besides, the Tories are some way ahead of Labour with Sikh and Hindu voters, around 50% from these groups voted Tory at the last election. Muslim voters favour Labour by some distance.

NB. If your comment was said in jest or you were quoting somebody else I withdraw the above completely :happy:

It was said in jest but I do believe that they must prioritise other factors such as the economy above the party's stance on race. So for someone like Sajid Javid, self-made and considered to have done well from a poor background, I can understand why the party's offerings on e.g. Brexit may outweigh his fear of being derided for his race. This is after all, a party whose leader has likened Muslim women to letterboxes and were not too long ago associated with things like the Windrush scandal. I accept that it is a minority within the party who subscribe to these views, but nevertheless not an insignificant one.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

One MP? So Corbyn is just an MP now?

Yes. He is one MP. The MP for Islington North. He doesn't get all the Labour MP's votes to cast just because he's the leader. He gets ONE vote in the chamber. As leader he has a bigger voice and can influence party policy more than most, but he doesn't just get to choose it himself.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

the crowd were supposed to be a fair split - at least you acknowledge the clear biases of the audience

were you one of the silly whining children asking the silly questions and thinking they were oh so clever?

Anything critical of Johnson is silly whining-got it

Tell me why I should vote Conservative, considering I work in state education. Go on, make me laugh-I don't think Boris could

 

[Skybluefaz]

Well Johnson has an easy ride. It was like an evening at a student union with silly screechy children asking dumb questions

he will not shift from his share of the vote. His real concern will be the car crash that was Swinson - the most ridiculous leader of a party since Michael Foot. Who will vote for that idiot after that?

Real doctors and nurses asking questions about the environment they work in? People from ethnic backgrounds who are offended by what he says? Struggling parents wrestling with universal credit? I'm sure he's gutted it wasn't just 80k a year man from the other night, but it was questions from people in situations of the conservatives making

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Labour say they will raise many sort of taxes but only 5% will pay more tax. Not sure how that will work out.

What do you think of the dude on over £80k claiming to not be in even the top 50% of earners?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

the crowd were supposed to be a fair split - at least you acknowledge the clear biases of the audience

were you one of the silly whining children asking the silly questions and thinking they were oh so clever?

Corbyn had a number of his answers thrown back at him and told he wasn't answering the question. But he kept his composure better than Johnson and maintained a level of decorum that stopped it getting really nasty.

Johnson just got annoyed and frustrated and went confrontational and it escalated. His approach made it worse and it deteriorated as it went on - the crowd didn't go for the throat from the off. Swinson did similar.

IMO Corbyn left with a bloodied nose. Swinson had her arse handed to her. Johnson left being pelted with rotten fruit.

 

[theferret]

1. Proposing to increase military expenditure by faster than the rate of inflation, proposing to reinstate a 3 tier education system, maintaining pay cuts for the public sector while indulging in corporate tax giveaways...yeah nothing right wing in there.

2. If someone spends ten years nicking my money and then pledges to return some of it, he's still not my mate.

Amazing what qualifies as 'the centre' in this country

Oh come on, you're better than that. High school debating society stuff.

They're proposing to increase expenditure faster than inflation across many departments, not just defence. Military spending as a proportion of GDP has fallen under this government from 2.5% to 2.1%, it's lowest in history, so perhaps it needs a shot in the arm.

Maintaining cuts for public sector pay? What, you're basing your argument on a GMB scare story? Manifesto out at the weekend, let's see.

Corporate tax giveaway? It's not a giveaway. Corporation tax cuts are set to be deferred in any case. We do have low rates, but we also have record levels of overseas investment and records revenues, it's a balancing act. Are you suggesting that Ireland is far right because of its ultra-low corporation tax rate?

Yes, it is amazing how some people define the centre in this country.

 

[Astute]

Yes. He is one MP. The MP for Islington North. He doesn't get all the Labour MP's votes to cast just because he's the leader. He gets ONE vote in the chamber. As leader he has a bigger voice and can influence party policy more than most, but he doesn't just get to choose it himself.

Oh well. So Labour has a leader that isn't a leader then.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Oh come on, you're better than that. High school debating society stuff.

They're proposing to increase expenditure faster than inflation across many departments, not just defence. Military spending as a proportion of GDP has fallen under this government from 2.5% to 2.1%, it's lowest in history, so perhaps it needs a shot in the arm.

Maintaining cuts for public sector pay? What, you're basing your argument on a GMB scare story? Manifesto out at the weekend, let's see.

Corporate tax giveaway? It's not a giveaway. Corporation tax cuts are set to be deferred in any case. We do have low rates, but we also have record levels of overseas investment and records revenues, it's a balancing act. Are you suggesting that Ireland is far right because of its ultra-low corporation tax rate?

Yes, it is amazing how some people define the centre in this country.

I'm talking about the 2017 manifesto. Or are you saying that the real terms pay cuts my profession has had for a decade are imagined? The policy on grammar school expansion in there would send us back to the era of deciding futures at the age of 11 and further cementing inequality of opportunity. Pledging to increase military spending at faster than the rate of inflation while denying pay rises in line with inflation is not a policy of the centre ground. Oh and then they found the cash to bung to the DUP when push came to shove.

I do forget what a great decade it's been under their stewardship.

 

[skybluetony176]

the crowd were supposed to be a fair split - at least you acknowledge the clear biases of the audience

were you one of the silly whining children asking the silly questions and thinking they were oh so clever?

It was fair. The majority of the country thinks Boris is a c**t. In that respect the audience was perfectly balanced.

 

[Astute]

What do you think of the dude on over £80k claiming to not be in even the top 50% of earners?

What do you think of Labour saying that only 5% will pay more tax?

Yes there are deluded Tories. And a lot of them. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't look at anyone else. We shouldn't believe the bluster.

 

[skybluetony176]

Labour say they will raise many sort of taxes but only 5% will pay more tax. Not sure how that will work out.

That’s with regards to income tax.

 

[skybluetony176]

Oh well. So Labour has a leader that isn't a leader then.

The Tories have a leader who is neither a party member or an elected MP.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

What do you think of Labour saying that only 5% will pay more tax?

Yes there are deluded Tories. And a lot of them. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't look at anyone else. We shouldn't believe the bluster.

The top 5% of earners paying more income tax. I don’t believe all the bluster-if you had read my thoughts on their education ideas you’d see that.