General Election 2019 thread (41 Viewers)

[Astute]

The top 5% of earners paying more income tax. I don’t believe all the bluster-if you had read my thoughts on their education ideas you’d see that.

Labour said tax not income tax.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Labour said tax not income tax.

Which tax hikes on the average worker have been pledged?

 

[theferret]

I'm talking about the 2017 manifesto. Or are you saying that the real terms pay cuts my profession has had for a decade are imagined? The policy on grammar school expansion in there would send us back to the era of deciding futures at the age of 11 and further cementing inequality of opportunity. Pledging to increase military spending at faster than the rate of inflation while denying pay rises in line with inflation is not a policy of the centre ground. Oh and then they found the cash to bung to the DUP when push came to shove.

I do forget what a great decade it's been under their stewardship.

No, of course there was a public-sector pay freeze, that's documented fact. What there isn't yet in any indication that below inflation pay rises are planned during the next parliament, which is what you're suggesting with the comparison with military spending, where the budget has been decimated over recent years. Many people will welcome the reverse in military spending cuts, not least those whose livelihoods depend on it, not just those employed in the armed forces directly, but in the supply chain also.

Also, my wife is a teacher at a school in Coventry in a deprived area. I hear daily about the challenges in education. What I know is that more funding is needed and that teaching is a job with incredible pressures that very few people understand and which is losing good people at an alarming rate.

What I also know, is that in order to properly fund education, you need a thriving, enterprising economy that champions business and which helps the private sector succeed to generate the revenues needed to properly fund these essential services. If you think this Labour Party is the party to deliver that, fine, but I don't. I hope they are given a bashing at the polls, that the agitators are washed away and that it emerges again as a mainstream alternative at the next election when I think we'll all be ready for a change of government.

 

[fernandopartridge]

No, of course there was a public-sector pay freeze, that's documented fact. What there isn't yet in any indication that below inflation pay rises are planned during the next parliament, which is what you're suggesting with the comparison with military spending, where the budget has been decimated over recent years. Many people will welcome the reverse in military spending cuts, not least those whose livelihoods depend on it, not just those employed in the armed forces directly, but in the supply chain also.

Also, my wife is a teacher at a school in Coventry in a deprived area. I hear daily about the challenges in education. What I know is that more funding is needed and that teaching is a job with incredible pressures that very few people understand and which is losing good people at an alarming rate.

What I also know, is that in order to properly fund education, you need a thriving, enterprising economy that champions business and which helps the private sector succeed to generate the revenues needed to properly fund these essential services. If you think this Labour Party is the party to deliver that, fine, but I don't. I hope they are given a bashing at the polls, that the agitators are washed away and that it emerges again as a mainstream alternative at the next election when I think we'll all be ready for a change of government.

OK. Why isn't education flourishing in the current pro business Tory economy?

Corporation Tax is on profits not revenue by the way.

 

[Astute]

Which tax hikes on the average worker have been pledged?

So it won't happen because it hasn't been pledged?

IFS wrong on Labour tax plans, says McDonnell

 

[Astute]

One thing I have noticed is MP's earn 79k. Labour wants to raise tax on earnings over 80k. Coincidence?

 

[Gazolba]

<snip> Muslim voters favour Labour by some distance.

<snip>

That's the best reason I've heard yet to vote for anyone but Labour.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No, of course there was a public-sector pay freeze, that's documented fact. What there isn't yet in any indication that below inflation pay rises are planned during the next parliament, which is what you're suggesting with the comparison with military spending, where the budget has been decimated over recent years. Many people will welcome the reverse in military spending cuts, not least those whose livelihoods depend on it, not just those employed in the armed forces directly, but in the supply chain also.

Also, my wife is a teacher at a school in Coventry in a deprived area. I hear daily about the challenges in education. What I know is that more funding is needed and that teaching is a job with incredible pressures that very few people understand and which is losing good people at an alarming rate.

What I also know, is that in order to properly fund education, you need a thriving, enterprising economy that champions business and which helps the private sector succeed to generate the revenues needed to properly fund these essential services. If you think this Labour Party is the party to deliver that, fine, but I don't. I hope they are given a bashing at the polls, that the agitators are washed away and that it emerges again as a mainstream alternative at the next election when I think we'll all be ready for a change of government.

Again, I was referring to the 2017 manifesto (nearly all uncosted by the way). You know the one that pledged a grammar school roll out which the government‘s own commissioned research said would deepen and further entrench inequality with each generation. It would take us back to the ‘50s when one’s future was determined by a test at age 11.

I also work in a Coventry state school in a deprived area. Maybe even the same as your wife, maybe not. Which is why I find the citing of the Tory message for the last 9 years ‘we can only do things with a thriving economy’ to be a bit tedious. They have made our work considerably harder, not easier. They take funding away but expect more in return. Their fairer funding formula would see most Coventry schools lose millions in funding. Oh and they have cut our pay in real terms for a decade. Boris has pledged to end this but wants schools to pay it from existing budgets-completely unworkable.

No teacher in their right mind votes Tory, and with a very good reason. I don’t expect the mega rich to vote in Corbyn. So why do you expect me to vote for the pricks who make my job harder?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That's the best reason I've heard yet to vote for anyone but Labour.

Were you relieved when Javid dropped out of the leadership contest?

 

[Ian1779]

That's the best reason I've heard yet to vote for anyone but Labour.

Wow... you sir are a dinosaur.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

One thing I have noticed is MP's earn 79k. Labour wants to raise tax on earnings over 80k. Coincidence?

Corbyn earns more. Own goal old man

 

[Ian1779]

One thing I have noticed is MP's earn 79k. Labour wants to raise tax on earnings over 80k. Coincidence?

On the basis that the Labour leadership voted against the severely inflated pay rise implemented in the last couple of years - I would say that you need to lay off the conspiracy theories.

 

[Walsgrave]

That's the best reason I've heard yet to vote for anyone but Labour.

Are you this kid? :happy:

 

[Deleted member 5849]

That's the best reason I've heard yet to vote for anyone but Labour.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So it won't happen because it hasn't been pledged?

IFS wrong on Labour tax plans, says McDonnell

If we start attributing things to people when they haven’t said them it’s a bit disingenuous. Then again you are a master of this particular art

 

[theferret]

OK. Why isn't education flourishing in the current pro business Tory economy?

Corporation Tax is on profits not revenue by the way.

The public sector has been under massive strain, but there are clear signs that we are emerging from a period of economic strife and that the corner has been turned. The key question in this I guess. Tax revenues are up, unemployment is at record lows, foreign investment is high, especially in UK tech firms (but of course not all economic indicators are favourable, they never are). Which of the parties do we trust to build on this base, maintain high levels of employment and investment, so that we can begin to invest in services and infrastructure. If you think that is the Labour party, fine, vote for them, and nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise.

BTW, I know all about corporation tax, I've just paid my bill. What made you think that? Incidentally, having paid my bill (based on a decent year last year), I have had to shut my business. This year has been terrible, so have made a loss (my own fault, made some bad decisions), and on the basis that there was no way I was not going to pay HMRC (they're savage when you miss deadlines), I paid the bill, but this made the company insolvent and unable to trade, so had to close the doors. Devastated.

 

[Skybluefaz]

That's the best reason I've heard yet to vote for anyone but Labour.

Fucking moron

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The public sector has been under massive strain, but there are clear signs that we are emerging from a period of economic strife and that the corner has been turned. The key question in this I guess. Tax revenues are up, unemployment is at record lows, foreign investment is high, especially in UK tech firms (but of course not all economic indicators are favourable, they never are). Which of the parties do we trust to build on this base, maintain high levels of employment and investment, so that we can begin to invest in services and infrastructure. If you think that is the Labour party, fine, vote for them, and nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise.

BTW, I know all about corporation tax, I've just paid my bill. What made you think that? Incidentally, having paid my bill (based on a decent year last year), I have had to shut my business. This year has been terrible, so have made a loss (my own fault, made some bad decisions), and on the basis that there was no way I was not going to pay HMRC (they're savage when you miss deadlines), I paid the bill, but this made the company insolvent and unable to trade, so had to close the doors. Devastated.

You have lost your business after a decade of Tory governance. But you are still here singing their praises. What makes you think they give a fuck about the situation you’re in?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Fucking moron

I guess honest racism is the best type

 

[Johnnythespider]

That's the best reason I've heard yet to vote for anyone but Labour.

Do you get to vote from America ? I fuckin hope not

 

[theferret]

You have lost your business after a decade of Tory governance. But you are still here singing their praises. What makes you think they give a fuck about the situation you’re in?

Because I take personal responsibility. The failure of the business was entirely my fault, made a bad investment. You move on. In the end, I just about managed to pay everyone off so didn't owe anybody, I managed to get new jobs for my two employees and can now sleep at night.

And, what I love about this country, is the next day, I went on Companies House and formed a new company in half an hour and was trading straight away. Just a small business, just me, doing something completely different and will hopefully make myself a living, that'll do me, no grand plans, just want to pay the bills and provide for my family. Setting up a company is a breeze here, I once tried it in Spain and it was impossible. Takes months, you need to get lawyer and costs a fortune. I hope a Labour government, if we get one, doesn't try to over-regulate in this area, it's hard enough as it is so hope they don't do anything to discourage start-ups, not that there is any suggestion they will.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Because I take personal responsibility. The failure of the business was entirely my fault, made a bad investment. You move on. In the end, I just about managed to pay everyone off so didn't owe anybody, I managed to get new jobs for my two employees and can now sleep at night.

And, what I love about this country, is the next day, I went on Companies House and formed a new company in half an hour and was trading straight away. Just a small business, just me, doing something completely different and will hopefully make myself a living, that'll do me, no grand plans, just want to pay the bills and provide for my family. Setting up a company is a breeze here, I once tried it in Spain and it was impossible. Takes months, you need to get lawyer and costs a fortune. I hope a Labour government, if we get one, doesn't try to over-regulate in this area, it's hard enough as it is so hope they don't do anything to discourage start-ups, not that there is any suggestion they will.

Reminds me of the chap here. So do tell me again, looking at their track record on education and underfunding it for a decade, why I should vote Tory in a few weeks' time?

 

[fernandopartridge]

The public sector has been under massive strain, but there are clear signs that we are emerging from a period of economic strife and that the corner has been turned. The key question in this I guess. Tax revenues are up, unemployment is at record lows, foreign investment is high, especially in UK tech firms (but of course not all economic indicators are favourable, they never are). Which of the parties do we trust to build on this base, maintain high levels of employment and investment, so that we can begin to invest in services and infrastructure. If you think that is the Labour party, fine, vote for them, and nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise.

BTW, I know all about corporation tax, I've just paid my bill. What made you think that? Incidentally, having paid my bill (based on a decent year last year), I have had to shut my business. This year has been terrible, so have made a loss (my own fault, made some bad decisions), and on the basis that there was no way I was not going to pay HMRC (they're savage when you miss deadlines), I paid the bill, but this made the company insolvent and unable to trade, so had to close the doors. Devastated.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[westcountry_skyblue]

So many people trying to make a reasoned case for a Labour vote on here, it's very surprising and somewhat out of step with the national mood as I see it, which I suspect will deliver nothing short of a thumping Tory victory.

Whatever misgivings people may have about another five years of Conservative rule, you look across at the Labour benches and you see a shadow cabinet entirely ill-equipped for government, more than any other in modern history.

Their manifesto is Alice in Wonderland stuff. It is based on undeliverable promises, fantasy economics and is, quite frankly, deceitful. The Tories will sell the NHS to Donald Trump! Oh fuck off. No they won't. How does that even work? It is playground politics pandering to the fears of the dim-witted. Can anyone recall an election where the Labour hasn't led with base NHS scare stories?

Their whole economic policy is illiterate. The nationalisation of industries that have no business being in the hands of the state, coupled with tax hikes that will result in revenues worked out of the back of a fag packet and which simply don't stand up to scrutiny.

The great deceit, at the very heart of the Labour message, is that we live in a society that is fundamentally unfair and that we have a tax system that is regressive, or at least is regressive in a comparative sense. This is patently untrue. We have one of the highest starting rate of tax thresholds in the developed world. By comparison (to choose just one example of many), somebody in the Netherlands earning 15,000 euros will pay 36% tax. Somebody earning up to 68,000 euros will pay 38% tax. Imagine the Tories proposing such a flat system. Lily Allen would convulse. Our minimum wage is amongst the highest in the the EU, we have a system of tax credits (which the Tories have maintained) which redistributes wealth in a progressive way not replicated in many countries.

Is it perfect? No, but let's dispense with this nonsense idea that the current government is ideologically predisposed to punish low earners and reward high earners. I believe the very wealthy could contribute more, but even then the top 1% still contribute more than a third of tax revenues. A lot of it is driven by ideology. When Boris, quite sensibly, announced that the earnings threshold for the top rate of tax be shifted up a bit (which it should, because the threshold was set many years ago, and many people have moved into this bracket in the intervening years), it was denounced as a tax cut for the rich, and was lapped up by the lemmings. It was nothing of the sort. The very wealthy would see hardly any difference, but those earning 50-70K would see a real difference, a bracket that includes teachers, senior nurses, tube drivers, and many hard working people in the South-East where the cost of living is insane.

We see it time and time again. Private schools - at least they have ditched the insane idea of scrapping them, but now plan to tax them, to 'generate revenues'. No it won't, it'll force many back into state schools, taking up places and resources they were already paying for but not using. Who benefits?

Scrap tuition fees? Why? Whether you borrow £100,000 or £500,000 for your studies, the amount you pay back is exactly the same for the vast majority (unless you go on to earn enormous amounts, in which case you can afford it anyway). Who benefits?

Corporation tax? Don't get me started on that. Removing loopholes and working with other countries to ensure multi-nationals pay their fair share, fine, but you only need to look at Ireland to see how low rates of corporation tax can work and can generate wealth for a nation. Do people not think that the record levels of overseas investment in the UK and our relatively low rates of business taxes are somehow linked? Again, economic illiteracy from Labour. A senior Labour MP recently sent out a tweet regarding Amazon in which she clearly had no idea of the difference between turnover and profit. Some want these people to run the country.

You can make a good case against the Tories in many areas. I am not particularly partisan. My politics are very centrist and moderate, but this Labour Party would be a disaster. They are a rabble. Corbyn himself, once dismissed as a crazy, albeit a principled one, is now exposed and a crazy with no principles whatsoever. Corbyn, a multi-millionaire with a net worth greater than Boris Johnson, who not once has contacted HMRC to request that he voluntarily pay more tax, something which he can do at any time he chooses. Just saying. Cue abuse.

The lefties haven’t an answer they live in dream land

 

[Ian1779]

The lefties haven’t an answer they live in dream land

As opposed to the righties living in the Stone Age.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The lefties haven’t an answer they live in dream land

Alternatively you righties want to stick your head in the sand and not listen to the answer.

 

[theferret]

Reminds me of the chap here. So do tell me again, looking at their track record on education and underfunding it for a decade, why I should vote Tory in a few weeks' time?

The great deceit at the heart of debate about public spending is that for the years following the 2010 election it would have been any different under Labour. Ahead of that election, Alistair Darling said "Labour's planned cuts in public spending will be "deeper and tougher" than Margaret Thatcher's in the 1980s". See Alistair Darling: we will cut deeper than Margaret Thatcher - the IFS were warning we'd have 'two parliaments of pain", which is exactly what we've had. People have short memories and have conveniently forgotten the dire situation we were in at that time and how long it hs taken to recover.

Ultimately, you vote whichever way you choose. It's interesting though, my wife suggested to me that the conversations she has had suggest few of her colleagues will be voting for Corbyn. Make of that what you will.

 

[westcountry_skyblue]

Johnson is a gift for Labour, SNP, Brexit Party, Lim Dems, Plaid Cymru, Monster Raving Looney etc

He’s just terrible.

But he will still get a majority because of the clowns wanting him out lol

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The great deceit at the heart of debate about public spending is that for the years following the 2010 election it would have been any different under Labour. Ahead of that election, Alistair Darling said "Labour's planned cuts in public spending will be "deeper and tougher" than Margaret Thatcher's in the 1980s". See Alistair Darling: we will cut deeper than Margaret Thatcher - the IFS were warning we'd have 'two parliaments of pain", which is exactly what we've had. People have short memories and have conveniently forgotten the dire situation we were in at that time and how long it hs taken to recover.

Ultimately, you vote whichever way you choose. It's interesting though, my wife suggested to me that the conversations she has had suggest few of her colleagues will be voting for Corbyn. Make of that what you will.

Yes I remember it well. Leaving school right in the middle of the recession, graduating when still not even the main chemical industries had jobs going. I also remember a somewhat smug David Cameron talking about 'we're all in it together' and creating a 'Big Society' when his priorities and actions showed these to be...not the case. He took pleasure in taking public services to the cleaners and didn't hide it. Then if my fellow millennials point this out we are called entitled. Thankfully more of us will be in political leadership roles in the decades to come and some of this shite will be undone.

I know I have the right to vote however I wish or not at all. If you've seen, I've been unhappy with Labour and Corbyn for a while now and my desire to vote for them is minimal after that manifesto. Yet we are in a 2 party system and I may yet have to put an 'X' by one of them for it to have any meaning. My gripes with the Tories on education aren't just limited to funding cuts either. Gove has done irreparable damage with his meddling and the less said about academisation the better. They have a fundamental belief that the public sector is crap and that the free market is king. I vote for them and I vote against my own self interest. It's that simple. Your wife's colleagues may not find Corbyn appealing but they may also find when push comes to shove he is better than the alternative.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But he will still get a majority because of the clowns wanting him out lol

What are you looking forward to most?

Pork pies to the Yanks
£15 billion bridge to NI
Arresting hijab wearers on suspicion of burglary
Cracking jokes to deflect pressure
Selling NI down the river on Brexit
Demand for Scottish independence to surge

Great time to be alive

 

[theferret]

Yes I remember it well. Leaving school right in the middle of the recession, graduating when still not even the main chemical industries had jobs going. I also remember a somewhat smug David Cameron talking about 'we're all in it together' and creating a 'Big Society' when his priorities and actions showed these to be...not the case. He took pleasure in taking public services to the cleaners and didn't hide it. Then if my fellow millennials point this out we are called entitled. Thankfully more of us will be in political leadership roles in the decades to come and some of this shite will be undone.

I know I have the right to vote however I wish or not at all. If you've seen, I've been unhappy with Labour and Corbyn for a while now and my desire to vote for them is minimal after that manifesto. Yet we are in a 2 party system and I may yet have to put an 'X' by one of them for it to have any meaning. My gripes with the Tories on education aren't just limited to funding cuts either. Gove has done irreparable damage with his meddling and the less said about academisation the better. They have a fundamental belief that the public sector is crap and that the free market is king. I vote for them and I vote against my own self interest. It's that simple. Your wife's colleagues may not find Corbyn appealing but they may also find when push comes to shove he is better than the alternative.

My wife goes into a rage whenever she sees Gove on the TV!

I think the key thing in the last statement, was the 'for Corbyn'. He just doesn't appeal. They'll be many people voting through gritted-teeth for the Tories I feel.

Corbyn just has too many reasons for people not to vote for him. Without resorting to the 'terrorist lover' jibes, his record for standing up for Britain on foreign policy issues isn't great, and for some people that is important. He's a Republican, quite openly, and while I'm completely indifferent to the royal family, some people still care about this. He doesn't appeal to the elderly voters it seems, is polling really badly with Sikh and Hindu voters apparently, and crucially his position (or lack of one) on Brexit won't do him any favours. I don't think he'll get many Jewish votes either. Yes he has a lot of support amongst the young and a motivated supporter base, but it won't be enough. There was a lot of complacency last time, people didn't vote because they thought the result was certain, but this time I think he'll be a long way short.

Who knows, I could be wrong, it won't be the first time.

 

[Walsgrave]

My wife goes into a rage whenever she sees Gove on the TV!

I think the key thing in the last statement, was the 'for Corbyn'. He just doesn't appeal. They'll be many people voting through gritted-teeth for the Tories I feel.

Corbyn just has too many reasons for people not to vote for him. Without resorting to the 'terrorist lover' jibes, his record for standing up for Britain on foreign policy issues isn't great, and for some people that is important. He's a Republican, quite openly, and while I'm completely indifferent to the royal family, some people still care about this. He doesn't appeal to the elderly voters it seems, is polling really badly with Sikh and Hindu voters apparently, and crucially his position (or lack of one) on Brexit won't do him any favours. I don't think he'll get many Jewish votes either. Yes he has a lot of support amongst the young and a motivated supporter base, but it won't be enough. There was a lot of complacency last time, people didn't vote because they thought the result was certain, but this time I think he'll be a long way short.

Who knows, I could be wrong, it won't be the first time.

Don't forgot that people of all parties (i.e. including Labour) did not vote for that reason, so the lack of turnout on the part of some voters last time does not necessarily imply anything about the direction in which they will go this time. If anything, the greater incentive to vote this time round should make the results in marginal seats more volatile.

 

[theferret]

Don't forgot that people of all parties (i.e. including Labour) did not vote for that reason, so the lack of turnout on the part of some voters last time does not necessarily imply anything about the direction in which they will go this time. If anything, the greater incentive to vote this time round should make the results in marginal seats more volatile.

Yep, good point, I won't be putting any money on the outcome. My gut says sizable Tory majority though, the polls don't look good for Labour it has to be said.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

My wife goes into a rage whenever she sees Gove on the TV!

I think the key thing in the last statement, was the 'for Corbyn'. He just doesn't appeal. They'll be many people voting through gritted-teeth for the Tories I feel.

Corbyn just has too many reasons for people not to vote for him. Without resorting to the 'terrorist lover' jibes, his record for standing up for Britain on foreign policy issues isn't great, and for some people that is important. He's a Republican, quite openly, and while I'm completely indifferent to the royal family, some people still care about this. He doesn't appeal to the elderly voters it seems, is polling really badly with Sikh and Hindu voters apparently, and crucially his position (or lack of one) on Brexit won't do him any favours. I don't think he'll get many Jewish votes either. Yes he has a lot of support amongst the young and a motivated supporter base, but it won't be enough. There was a lot of complacency last time, people didn't vote because they thought the result was certain, but this time I think he'll be a long way short.

Who knows, I could be wrong, it won't be the first time.

Yes he campaigned against apartheid when the British government defended it. He vocally campaigned against war in Iraq when the British government told fabulous lies to secure an invasion. He also has flaws like any one of us do-some I hold against him as reasons he should have resigned by now and let someone else have a go. But we are stuck with him for this one.

For my sins though I do fundamentally believe that he will try to do things of benefit to the average Joe Bloggs. He comes across as someone who is passionate about what he is proposing and that it will make life easier for those at the lower end. When I watch Boris Johnson I see a man who has lied throughout his life and who thinks restoring some of what his party took away over a decade is an amazing idea. Grendel even thinks that makes him some unhinged liberal. Education and healthcare are two of the most important roles of government. And I do not trust the Tories, especially the moron leading them, to do a better job in the next decade than they did in this one. You could smell the contempt Boris had for most of his questioners tonight.

I have not always voted Labour in the past. I don’t really want to this time-but there seems little choice.

 

[shmmeee]

The public sector has been under massive strain, but there are clear signs that we are emerging from a period of economic strife and that the corner has been turned. The key question in this I guess. Tax revenues are up, unemployment is at record lows, foreign investment is high, especially in UK tech firms (but of course not all economic indicators are favourable, they never are). Which of the parties do we trust to build on this base, maintain high levels of employment and investment, so that we can begin to invest in services and infrastructure. If you think that is the Labour party, fine, vote for them, and nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise.

BTW, I know all about corporation tax, I've just paid my bill. What made you think that? Incidentally, having paid my bill (based on a decent year last year), I have had to shut my business. This year has been terrible, so have made a loss (my own fault, made some bad decisions), and on the basis that there was no way I was not going to pay HMRC (they're savage when you miss deadlines), I paid the bill, but this made the company insolvent and unable to trade, so had to close the doors. Devastated.

Nine years to recover and now we’re about to plunge ourselves into recession voluntarily. Employment isn’t what matters, money in the pocket of the average consumer matters. Raising VAT and keeping wages low stifles growth in the economy, no matter how many people you technically have in work.

We could have been growing so much faster especially in the first five years.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....fs-recession-philip-hammond-a8255756.html?amp