General Election (15 Viewers)

[chiefdave]

 

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[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I haven't noticed you condemning the UK media's approach or that of the government with their threats, unless I missed it?

There was plenty of the 'EU is shit' type of posts that you didn't condemn either. I also note that the EU doesn't look like collapsing any time soon, neither does the Euro.

It's laughable that you are trying to target me for impartiality when that is exactly what you have done since day 1 on Brexit. As I said, most of this board are the same. If you took everything that I have said, I have also bashed the government for their childish games too. Remember 'bloody difficult woman'?

As it is there are a strong contingent of this board bashing the UK and sucking up to the EU, even on threads not related to the topic. Of course I take any threatening approaches from the media, the EU, or British parliament equally seriously. The thing is, you know that and you are just trying to push this onto me because I've made a valid point which you cannot argue against.

 

[Sick Boy]

It's laughable that you are trying to target me for impartiality when that is exactly what you have done since day 1 on Brexit. As I said, most of this board are the same. If you took everything that I have said, I have also bashed the government for their childish games too. Remember 'bloody difficult woman'?

As it is there are a strong contingent of this board bashing the UK and sucking up to the EU, even on threads not related to the topic. Of course I take any threatening approaches from the media, the EU, or British parliament equally seriously. The thing is, you know that and you are just trying to push this onto me because I've made a valid point which you cannot argue against.

I am not going to be impartial on Brexit as it is clearly going to and already is, starting to inflict misery on the poorest and the most vulnerable within the UK's society. Brexit will only benefit the rich and the elite. I haven't seen anyone on this forum 'bash Britain', unless you mean people speaking out against Brexit, which isn't the same really.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

You're misguided, there are others though where their real agenda shines through quite clearly.



You don't get it do you? I think Brexit will be an absolute car crash, I don't want it to be for the sake of my children, they're who I want the best for, I hope I'm totally wrong and Brexit catapults us to the leading economy in the world, (not that that's going to happen).
But if the negotiators take some Brexiteers arrogance and mis guided sense of Britains place in the world into talks we're going to get fucking rinsed.

Just look at mays visit to India, lukewarm at best. The rest of the world isn't banging down the door to strike up deals with a post brexit UK as quickly as possible, it's a myth. We need a big, fuck off reality check ASAP.

I do get it. I know Brexit has a danger to collapse and be a complete load of shit. The thing is, it doesn't have to be that way if it is done properly. You may say you are worried about the future of your children, but the way most (not all) remainers come across on here is that you are just determined to see the project fail. You don't believe in it. You think we should be ruled by the EU for eternity and anything else is not an option.

I for one do not agree with the current way things are being done, but I also think soft Brexit is nonsense. It's in or out, none of this 'seeing each other' or 'mildly flirting' horseshit.

I know it is in a lot of trouble, it always has been because so many people could not accept the result. That is the first hurdle, which by the looks of the election we are slowly getting over, has been a massive issue. Now we are leaving and there is nothing anyone can do about it, the best thing to do is unite and come together and try and get the best future for everyone as possible.

That does mean putting us first if we have to, although it would be better if all parties could be mature and adult and mutually sort it. We might actually get somewhere that way. That includes Merkel who has been exempt from any criticism from most on here, which is completely ridiculous. With that I am not saying May doesn't deserve any because she is a fucking nightmare too.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I am not going to be impartial on Brexit as it is clearly going to and already is, starting to inflict misery on the poorest and the most vulnerable within the UK's society. Brexit will only benefit the rich and the elite. I haven't seen anyone on this forum 'bash Britain', unless you mean people speaking out against Brexit, which isn't the same really.

I know you are not impartial. How is it impacting the poorest and most vulnerable though?

The thing is, it is happening. If anyone on here has any constructive critisim rather then bashing then that would probably be a good start.

 

[Sick Boy]

I know you are not impartial. How is it impacting the poorest and most vulnerable though?

The thing is, it is happening. If anyone on here has any constructive critisim rather then bashing then that would probably be a good start.

The falling pound and inflation for starters.

The hard brexit that a few on this forum want to happen is unlikely to go ahead now.

 

[chiefdave]

I do get it. I know Brexit has a danger to collapse and be a complete load of shit. The thing is, it doesn't have to be that way if it is done properly. You may say you are worried about the future of your children, but the way most (not all) remainers come across on here is that you are just determined to see the project fail. You don't believe in it. You think we should be ruled by the EU for eternity and anything else is not an option.

I was remain by default, better the devil you know, but was certainly open to being persuaded leave was the best option.

The problem with the whole campaign, and its been the same since, is lack of any detail. Phrases like 'brexit means brexit', 'hard brexit', 'soft brexit' are thrown around but are meaningless. You've also got people claiming a certain type of brexit was voted for when it was a leave / remain vote with no shades of grey.

Personally I'd like to have seen more debate on remain and reform but that never seemed to be given any consideration. It was remain with the EU exactly as it is today or leave.

Don't think its at all accurate to say anyone voting remain wanted us to be ruled by the EU for eternity or they want leaving to fail. What they would like is to know what are position is going into negotiations? What are we trying to achieve?

Everything we've seen so far points to there not being a plan and everything been done on the fly. Look at the leading leave campaigners, it only took until the morning after and they were all running off distancing themselves from things.

I know it is in a lot of trouble, it always has been because so many people could not accept the result. That is the first hurdle, which by the looks of the election we are slowly getting over, has been a massive issue. Now we are leaving and there is nothing anyone can do about it, the best thing to do is unite and come together and try and get the best future for everyone as possible.

The result is accepted but that doesn't mean everyone who voted remain suddenly has to changed their stance and not ask any questions. Don't agree that there's nothing that can be done about it. Even the EU themselves have indicated the whole process can be stopped.

Would you be against a second referendum when we know what the outcome of the negotiations are? My feeling is we will end up like Norway. Still paying in but without any say. Not sure thats what people who voted leave had in mind.

 

[Sick Boy]

No one is yet to answer @Monners questions about how Brexit will leave the UK better off economically.

 

[clint van damme]

I do get it. I know Brexit has a danger to collapse and be a complete load of shit. The thing is, it doesn't have to be that way if it is done properly. You may say you are worried about the future of your children, but the way most (not all) remainers come across on here is that you are just determined to see the project fail. You don't believe in it. You think we should be ruled by the EU for eternity and anything else is not an option.

I for one do not agree with the current way things are being done, but I also think soft Brexit is nonsense. It's in or out, none of this 'seeing each other' or 'mildly flirting' horseshit.

I know it is in a lot of trouble, it always has been because so many people could not accept the result. That is the first hurdle, which by the looks of the election we are slowly getting over, has been a massive issue. Now we are leaving and there is nothing anyone can do about it, the best thing to do is unite and come together and try and get the best future for everyone as possible.

That does mean putting us first if we have to, although it would be better if all parties could be mature and adult and mutually sort it. We might actually get somewhere that way. That includes Merkel who has been exempt from any criticism from most on here, which is completely ridiculous. With that I am not saying May doesn't deserve any because she is a fucking nightmare too.

that's exactly my point. I think it will be difficult to get a good deal anyway, but while we've got a lame duck PM propped up by the DUP and boris waiting in the wings who will always do what's best for boris and fuck everyone else then it's very worrying.

 

[chiefdave]

 

[skybluetony176]

You're misguided, there are others though where their real agenda shines through quite clearly.



You don't get it do you? I think Brexit will be an absolute car crash, I don't want it to be for the sake of my children, they're who I want the best for, I hope I'm totally wrong and Brexit catapults us to the leading economy in the world, (not that that's going to happen).
But if the negotiators take some Brexiteers arrogance and mis guided sense of Britains place in the world into talks we're going to get fucking rinsed.

Just look at mays visit to India, lukewarm at best. The rest of the world isn't banging down the door to strike up deals with a post brexit UK as quickly as possible, it's a myth. We need a big, fuck off reality check ASAP.

That gets a big like from me. It's like some people believe we're still a big manufacturing powerhouse and if people want our products they must bow down to our demands. Simply not true. We're a service powerhouse these days and we've largely been able to do that because of our access to the single market. We're going to shoot ourselves massively in the foot without it and I've come to the conclusion that is why May is so keen to slash corporation tax. It's a payoff in an attempt to retain businesses that might otherwise leave because of having no access to the single market. And they still might leave. It's a con. Yes we won't be sending £350M or whatever the real figure is to the EU anymore but by the same token we won't be collecting it in tax either because we're collecting a smaller percentage of corporation tax, we'll probably be collecting that smaller percentage from a smaller amount of companies, skillful people will be moving out of the country to go where the work is so we'll be collecting less income tax, unskilled workers may well end up out of work so not only paying no tax they then through not fault of their own become a burden on an already inadequate welfare system and that's before you even get into the myriad of supply and service companies behind the scenes that work for corporations in this country.

And no. I didn't read that in a scaremongering newspaper.

 

[Grendel]

The falling pound and inflation for starters.

The hard brexit that a few on this forum want to happen is unlikely to go ahead now.

How has the falling pound and inflation made life more difficult for the poor? Are you seriously telling me that a Corbyn led government would not have seen inflation rise. As for the pound it was collapsing merely on the suggestion Corbyn would be PM at a much faster rate was it not?

 

[chiefdave]

As for the pound it was collapsing merely on the suggestion Corbyn would be PM at a much faster rate was it not?

Immediately after the referendum the pound went from $1.49 to $1.29 and bottomed out at $1.22.

Following the election the pound went from $1.29 to $1.27. It's currently $1.28. The post election drop was more to do with the uncertainly of a hung parliament than anything to do with Corbyn.

 

[clint van damme]

How has the falling pound and inflation made life more difficult for the poor? Are you seriously telling me that a Corbyn led government would not have seen inflation rise. As for the pound it was collapsing merely on the suggestion Corbyn would be PM at a much faster rate was it not?

keeping referring to what Corbyn would have done or what would have happened if Corbyn had been elected is pretty much irrelevant.

May got us into this mess with a combination of trying to further her own career and making bad decisions and it's imperative she get's us out of it.

As for how does inflation make life difficult for the poor? With wage contraction as bad and the increase in inflation then they will be far worse off, everybody ill except for the very wealthy few.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I was remain by default, better the devil you know, but was certainly open to being persuaded leave was the best option.

The problem with the whole campaign, and its been the same since, is lack of any detail. Phrases like 'brexit means brexit', 'hard brexit', 'soft brexit' are thrown around but are meaningless. You've also got people claiming a certain type of brexit was voted for when it was a leave / remain vote with no shades of grey.

Personally I'd like to have seen more debate on remain and reform but that never seemed to be given any consideration. It was remain with the EU exactly as it is today or leave.

Don't think its at all accurate to say anyone voting remain wanted us to be ruled by the EU for eternity or they want leaving to fail. What they would like is to know what are position is going into negotiations? What are we trying to achieve?

Everything we've seen so far points to there not being a plan and everything been done on the fly. Look at the leading leave campaigners, it only took until the morning after and they were all running off distancing themselves from things.

The result is accepted but that doesn't mean everyone who voted remain suddenly has to changed their stance and not ask any questions. Don't agree that there's nothing that can be done about it. Even the EU themselves have indicated the whole process can be stopped.

Would you be against a second referendum when we know what the outcome of the negotiations are? My feeling is we will end up like Norway. Still paying in but without any say. Not sure thats what people who voted leave had in mind.

That's a good, honest response.

I agree, remain with reform was not a bad place to be. Even Macron said recently that the EU does need reform. It's pretty clear that needs to happen, however when we tried to strike a better deal they did just laugh at us. Therefore they have to look at themselves in some way as to why we are now leaving them.

I do think there is an element of putting a spanner in the works though. A lot of people are mad about the result and would rather cause trouble over maybe helping give their suggestions. This will never get admitted though, they will just argue that leaving the EU needs to be held to account and that's what they are trying to do.

I think anything other than leave would be wrong, certainly the 'it isn't too late to change your mind' shows that they are actually bothered by us going. I also would be against a second referendum.

I think we have to leave, but we have to do it in the right and respectful way.

 

[skybluetony176]

How has the falling pound and inflation made life more difficult for the poor? Are you seriously telling me that a Corbyn led government would not have seen inflation rise. As for the pound it was collapsing merely on the suggestion Corbyn would be PM at a much faster rate was it not?

Because almost every raw material from metal to oil is traded in US$. When that raw product enters the UK market it's price is converted from US$ to UK£ driving up the cost because of the weak pound. So anything manufactured in this country has increased in cost, anything transported in this country has gone up in cost. Fine for the export market as this is offset by the weak pound but still not the exporting advantage many would have you believe considering that your cost have gone up so your UK£ price has increased and if you're supplying to the home market your price has increased full stop, wages don't reflect this so wages aren't going as far.

 

[Liquid Gold]

It's a shame Cameron was such charlatan and thought he could just get away with it. If the referendum was reasonably thought out and the possibility that we voted to leave considered then it would have been handled entirely differently.

First of all it would have been made binding.

Secondly, I believe, it would have been best to have been in more detail than simple in and out. A 4 question referendum with a first and second preference, or a first and second round with the options:
1. Remain in the EU as it is.
2. Remain in the EU and attempt reform but revisit the issue if no reform takes place.
3. Leave the EU but remain in the common market and retain freedom of movement.
4. Leave the completely, invalidating all treaties and create a new relationship.

If something like this happened then there would be no need for all the shit going on now. It was just staggering incompetence by Cameron to expect the country to go his way and not prepare anything else.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It's a shame Cameron was such charlatan and thought he could just get away with it. If the referendum was reasonably thought out and the possibility that we voted to leave considered then it would have been handled entirely differently.

First of all it would have been made binding.

Secondly, I believe, it would have been best to have been in more detail than simple in and out. A 4 question referendum with a first and second preference, or a first and second round with the options:
1. Remain in the EU as it is.
2. Remain in the EU and attempt reform but revisit the issue if no reform takes place.
3. Leave the EU but remain in the common market and retain freedom of movement.
4. Leave the completely, invalidating all treaties and create a new relationship.

If something like this happened then there would be no need for all the shit going on now. It was just staggering incompetence by Cameron to expect the country to go his way and not prepare anything else.

That's on the button LG.

Certainly me (as a leave voter), would have voted for number 2. I bet a lot people would of done so too.

 

[Grendel]

That's on the button LG.

Certainly me (as a leave voter), would have voted for number 2. I bet a lot people would of done so too.

Cameron tried number 2 and returned with his tail between his legs.

That's why we had the referendum.

Oh and number 3 is impossible.

 

[chiefdave]

Would be a vote for 2 from me as well. The whole process was drawn up by people who thought there was no chance of a leave vote. I don't remember any discussion about things like should it be 50% + 1 to win or need a certain majority, what happens if different UK countries voted different ways etc. It was just assumed it would be an easy win for remain.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Cameron tried number 2 and returned with his tail between his legs.

That's why we had the referendum.

Oh and number 3 is impossible.

Yeah, that's right. That's why out of the two choices I leant towards leave.

I would have been up for him giving it another go with the backing of the country though.

 

[Kingokings204]

Cameron tried number 2 and returned with his tail between his legs.

That's why we had the referendum.

Oh and number 3 is impossible.

Sadly it's made possible by remainers making it their "soft" brexit. Aka not really brexit.

The fact LG made an option out of number 3 is very worrying. No point in the referendum.

Here is my option 5.

5. Remain in the EU but leave freedom of movement and the single market.

Sounds crazy doesn't it!

 

[chiefdave]

The fact LG made an option out of number 3 is very worrying. No point in the referendum.

Something like the setup Norway have is a possibility isn't it? We'd have left the EU if we did and thats all we voted on.

 

[Kingokings204]

Yeah, that's right. That's why out of the two choices I leant towards leave.

I would have been up for him giving it another go with the backing of the country though.

All the EU had to do was give us a plum branch such as we can control our borders and we would of stayed in the EU. They gave us nothing and Cameron had nothing to offer marginal leave voters so they indeed voted leave and turned the referendum in to a leave win.

 

[Kingokings204]

Something like the setup Norway have is a possibility isn't it? We'd have left the EU if we did and thats all we voted on.

Well I agree Norway is a better place than we are currently imo.

I'm not against a Norway deal therefore but just think we could better than Norway for the reasons in this thread.

 

[shmmeee]

How has the falling pound and inflation made life more difficult for the poor? Are you seriously telling me that a Corbyn led government would not have seen inflation rise. As for the pound it was collapsing merely on the suggestion Corbyn would be PM at a much faster rate was it not?

The fall in the pound was because of uncertainty, not because the market doesn't like Corbyn, you absolute loon.

And seriously, you're not sure how increasing the cost of essential goods makes it harder for poor people?

Maybe this type of discussion is a bit out of your league?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

however when we tried to strike a better deal they did just laugh at us.

Which is surely why the assumption negotiations to leave will go in our favour, is naive at best...

 

[Deleted member 5849]

That's on the button LG.

Certainly me (as a leave voter), would have voted for number 2. I bet a lot people would of done so too.

Some of us who voted for remain would have quite happily gone for the second option there, too.

It's what's utterly ridiculous. There are the hardcore on either end of the extreme, but most people are not *that* moved by whether we're in Europe or not.

Personally I think we'll see a second referendum when negotiations to leave don't go as hoped. It'd be appropriate then, too. The only issue would be, whether there'd be a rebellious 'fuck 'em' vote which'd say for us to bog off regardless, leaving us in an even worse position!

I do think the mood of the country will change, however, when the detail becomes apparent, as opposed to the wishy-washy populist phrases.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Yeah, that's right. That's why out of the two choices I leant towards leave.

I would have been up for him giving it another go with the backing of the country though.

A vote for that would have strengthened his negotiating hand too...

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Well I agree Norway is a better place than we are currently imo.

Eh? But you were all against Freedom of Movement earlier!

Norway also has a higher net immigration from the EU then we do...

 

[Sick Boy]

Cameron tried number 2 and returned with his tail between his legs.

That's why we had the referendum.

Oh and number 3 is impossible.

Why would number 3 be impossible?

 

[Sick Boy]

All the EU had to do was give us a plum branch such as we can control our borders and we would of stayed in the EU. They gave us nothing and Cameron had nothing to offer marginal leave voters so they indeed voted leave and turned the referendum in to a leave win.

If you move to Italy and haven't found employment, then you are not legally allowed to remain, I believe this is EU law for all states. However, due to Britain's own fault it has no way of knowing any of this due to not having residency cards. I had to get one in Italy and without that I wouldn't have been allowed access to free healthcare and other services.

Don't forget that I was the UK's own decision to allow such large migration from Eastern Europe when other countries enforced restrictions.

 

[RegTheDonk]

Given his and Mcdonnells views on the EU are far more anti than 95% of Tory politicians I find that a very odd observation.

I don't think he wanted to get involved at all in supporting the "remain" vote and seemed to be pushed into that corner by the rest of the party. Rather he'd have come out and sided with Boris and Gove if he felt that way.

 

[Brylowes]

Some of us who voted for remain would have quite happily gone for the second option there, too.

It's what's utterly ridiculous. There are the hardcore on either end of the extreme, but most people are not *that* moved by whether we're in Europe or not.

Personally I think we'll see a second referendum when negotiations to leave don't go as hoped. It'd be appropriate then, too. The only issue would be, whether there'd be a rebellious 'fuck 'em' vote which'd say for us to bog off regardless, leaving us in an even worse position!

I do think the mood of the country will change, however, when the detail becomes apparent, as opposed to the wishy-washy populist phrases.

Fully agree, I was a remainer but with an opinion that the EU was in need of serious reform,
Ironically Britain voting Leave coupled with the upcoming very public talks could be the
Catalyst for just such reform, with the outcome seeing us back in the fold.

 

[Grendel]

The fall in the pound was because of uncertainty, not because the market doesn't like Corbyn, you absolute loon.

And seriously, you're not sure how increasing the cost of essential goods makes it harder for poor people?

Maybe this type of discussion is a bit out of your league?

Lol.

Are you seriously telling me that the prospect of a government committed to raising business taxes, mass capital expenditure, borrowing against a GDP that's borrowed out would have zero impact on business confidence and the exchange?

As for rising costs - that's odd - you keep blathering on about debt levels not mattering and labours borrowing record but ignore the impact it always has on inflation, interest rates and costs. Inflation rose 20% above wage growth the last time we had a real labour government.

You are clueless.