General Election (2 Viewers)

[Liquid Gold]

FWIW I think the winners of this election are fucked next time rounds. Whoever it is will be dealing with the brexit shit storm and whatever the outcome of that there are going to be people less than pleased.

 

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[Astute]

This shitty little thing is still going on? The NHS is about to be sold and you're arguing about who said what 30 years ago. Come on lads

Because we are only allowed to have a go at anyone but Labour. Yet the Labour leader has a very dodgy past that many would like to disappear. Yet if you have a go at anyone else it gets ignored.

 

[Astute]

FWIW I think the winners of this election are fucked next time rounds. Whoever it is will be dealing with the brexit shit storm and whatever the outcome of that there are going to be people less than pleased.

I fully agree. And on top of that they seem clueless on how to take us forward.

If only there could be one more box to put your cross in which is for none of those named. And if that got the most votes new leaders had to be put forward.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

This shitty little thing is still going on? The NHS is about to be sold and you're arguing about who said what 30 years ago. Come on lads

Would 'selling the NHS' as you put it be as bad as you think. Personally I think that its such a bloated, oversized mess that whatever amount of money thrown at it would just disappear. Money isn't the answer to sorting it. Restructuring it properly is.


The catastrophic mess that is Brexit, they will be done no favours, trust me.
Corbyn will enter talks with a fresh perspective, and is far more likely to garner
Support from Europe in affording us a "Soft Brexit "

We as a country can't really begin proper negotiations to leave until the election is over and the government,whoever they are, have proper support from the houses.
Its not a mess really as nothing has, will or can be done until the process begins properly. Its all spin and lies like much of the referendum propaganda was from both side in the lead up to the vote. We voted out as a country and are still here, we were told that we'd collapse within days. It never happened much like the extra money being pumped into the nhs. Given time money might see its way into the NHS but I doubt it will sort out the problems it has.

 

[Joy Division]

Revealed: Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell's close IRA links

Which bit of that article are you referring to? I've read it btw. Nowhere in there does he praise the IRA.

 

[olderskyblue]

This shitty little thing is still going on? The NHS is about to be sold and you're arguing about who said what 30 years ago. Come on lads

Blimey, the Coventry Blitz was in 1940, and we still get sensitive about it if other fans reference it as a joke...

 

[Liquid Gold]

I fully agree. And on top of that they seem clueless on how to take us forward.

If only there could be one more box to put your cross in which is for none of those named. And if that got the most votes new leaders had to be put forward.

I think they should make voting compulsory and introduce a none of the above option.

 

[Ian1779]

Would 'selling the NHS' as you put it be as bad as you think. Personally I think that its such a bloated, oversized mess that whatever amount of money thrown at it would just disappear. Money isn't the answer to sorting it. Restructuring it properly is.

There is nothing wrong with sorting it out, but putting it into a position where money can be made is a complete no-no.

Interestingly on a side note - academies were specifically told that they were not allowed to become money-making organisations. There is talk that this rule may be relaxed/removed by a future Tory government - how would that ever be an acceptable way to run a national education system.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I fully agree. And on top of that they seem clueless on how to take us forward.

If only there could be one more box to put your cross in which is for none of those named. And if that got the most votes new leaders had to be put forward.

Thing is Astute as much as we dislike it this is essentially a two party system unless you live in Scotland or NI. The Conservatives have pledged to give me real terms pay cuts and make my job considerably harder. If I want any chance of that not happening I have to vote for the alternative.

Ed Miliband didn't offer one last time, there is one this time.

 

[skybluetony176]

It's happened. I think Grendull and Astute have convinced be to switch my vote from Tory to Labour.

When those that shout the loudest can only come up with a misunderstood smear campaign as an argument to why you shouldn't vote for said party instead of arguing the manifestos you have to question why. So I've read and reread both Tory and labour manifestos numerous times now and while both have have details I like and dislike when I read the manifestos in isolation ignoring the colour of the party and on balance the Tory one is just so negative and based on fear whereas the labour one is positive and based on hope.

I think it was Barack Obama who said in his first election campaign that do you want to vote for a president who panders to your fears or a president who panders to your dreams, or words to that effect. And I'm finding myself drawn to that notion.

 

[Astute]

Thing is Astute as much as we dislike it this is essentially a two party system unless you live in Scotland or NI. The Conservatives have pledged to give me real terms pay cuts and make my job considerably harder. If I want any chance of that not happening I have to vote for the alternative.

Ed Miliband didn't offer one last time, there is one this time.

Which is why I won't vote Tory.

Or we have Corbyn who tries to say that his involvement with the IRA was as a part of the peace agreement. But those involved in the peace agreement say he wasn't involved. Two others high up in the Labour party were also involved. And as you say we are more or less a two party country.

 

[Astute]

It's happened. I think Grendull and Astute have convinced be to switch my vote from Tory to Labour.

When those that shout the loudest can only come up with a misunderstood smear campaign as an argument to why you shouldn't vote for said party instead of arguing the manifestos you have to question why. So I've read and reread both Tory and labour manifestos numerous times now and while both have have details I like and dislike when I read the manifestos in isolation ignoring the colour of the party and on balance the Tory one is just so negative and based on fear whereas the labour one is positive and based on hope.

I think it was Barack Obama who said in his first election campaign that do you want to vote for a president who panders to your fears or a president who panders to your dreams, or words to that effect. And I'm finding myself drawn to that notion.

What a load of bullshit. Where have I said vote Tory? What I have said is both are not worthy of our vote.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Which is why I won't vote Tory.

Or we have Corbyn who tries to say that his involvement with the IRA was as a part of the peace agreement. But those involved in the peace agreement say he wasn't involved. Two others high up in the Labour party were also involved. And as you say we are more or less a two party country.

If you think he was that ingratiated with them file a police complaint. I'm just explaining a large part of the reasons for my vote are for the man's ideas, not the individual.

 

[clint van damme]

Because we are only allowed to have a go at anyone but Labour. Yet the Labour leader has a very dodgy past that many would like to disappear. Yet if you have a go at anyone else it gets ignored.

ridiculous statement. It's because we are living with a current terrorist threat, who are committing atrocities on our street, and have a PM who is cosying up to their main sponsor and flogging them arms - can you not see which is the bigger danger?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Would 'selling the NHS' as you put it be as bad as you think. Personally I think that its such a bloated, oversized mess that whatever amount of money thrown at it would just disappear. Money isn't the answer to sorting it. Restructuring it properly is.

Bloated oversized mess that is struggling to keep up with demand for its services. The bloat is in the masses of commissioners that the Tories created in order to bring competition into the health service. Money and restructuring is the answer to solving it, 51% of NHS Trusts having a combined deficit £750m will not be solved by a bit of restructuring. It's solved by properly funding it, enabling restructure. I daresay it might even be worth the short term pain of trying to settle some of the PFI contracts with additional money now in order to make the service more sustainable in the longer term.

 

[Astute]

If you think he was that ingratiated with them file a police complaint. I'm just explaining a large part of the reasons for my vote are for the man's ideas, not the individual.

I understand why you would vote Labour. Unless you are rich or pretend to be the Tories are not for you. If you have a job which is paid by the government then anyone but the Tories are better for you.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

One quote after being pushed for it. But would never condemn the IRA.

It is shocking how so many don't even have doubts about him.

The best way to not resolve a conflict of any sort is to deny all responsibility oneself, & take sides by condemning the actions of a specific party in the conflict.

You seem to have difficulty understanding that he is not condemning the IRA now because he felt it prudent to not condemn them back then - so he can't be called a hypocrite on that at least. What he did condemn was their actions rather than their objectives, or their very being.

That's good diplomacy. I'll bet the Tory crowd at the time afforded the IRA representatives every respect in their behind the scenes discussions...which given the spouted 'no negotiation with terrorists' stance WAS hypocritical.

I am not active in my support of any political persuasion...but one-sided rubbishing & discrediting does much to push me toward the more dignified side

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Astute]

ridiculous statement. It's because we are living with a current terrorist threat, who are committing atrocities on our street, and have a PM who is cosying up to their main sponsor and flogging them arms - can you not see which is the bigger danger?

OK Corbyn is innocent of all charges. He would make a great PM. I hope you get what you are after and that it doesn't go badly wrong. I wish I could have the same confidence.

I am leaving this thread now. You can all agree with each other how badly he has been treated.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I understand why you would vote Labour. Unless you are rich or pretend to be the Tories are not for you. If you have a job which is paid by the government then anyone but the Tories are better for you.

Yes so you see it is less a love-in for Corbyn and more for someone giving a shit about Joe Public.

 

[clint van damme]

OK Corbyn is innocent of all charges. He would make a great PM. I hope you get what you are after and that it doesn't go badly wrong. I wish I could have the same confidence.

I am leaving this thread now. You can all agree with each other how badly he has been treated.

you haven't read my posts properly.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

Bloated oversized mess that is struggling to keep up with demand for its services. The bloat is in the masses of commissioners that the Tories created in order to bring competition into the health service. Money and restructuring is the answer to solving it, 51% of NHS Trusts having a combined deficit £750m will not be solved by a bit of restructuring. It's solved by properly funding it, enabling restructure. I daresay it might even be worth the short term pain of trying to settle some of the PFI contracts with additional money now in order to make the service more sustainable in the longer term.

How the NHS wastes £7.6bn a year | Daily Mail Online
I know its from the mail but there were others (guardian included) which showed a similar vein(if you pardon the pun). Its just too big to be managed properly in my view. Too many places or chains for people to hide and not take responsibility for actions, collection of fees for treating foreign patients is a prime one.

 

[Grendel]

The funny thing about the election is that Corbyn has actually performed rather well.

He seems far more engaged and more engaging. His public speaking and passion for his subject matter have all been at a far better level than anyone would have predicted.

His crowds have been fixed as is the way but even it's clearly been a surprise.

 

[Joy Division]

OK Corbyn is innocent of all charges. He would make a great PM. I hope you get what you are after and that it doesn't go badly wrong. I wish I could have the same confidence.

I am leaving this thread now. You can all agree with each other how badly he has been treated.

Good lad.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Any reason for this to be wrong?

YES. .
1. The Telegraph - no political bias there then?
2. Printed in 2015 no doubt specifically with the aim of discrediting the said new leader
3. Sparodic disclosure/revealed referrals interspersed with short bursts in quote marks easily used to reinforce argument to suit their agenda
4. Bold more extensive quotes from a specific individual who at the time was no doubt coming from the absolute counter position to the IRA

It has little or no credibility. Coul have been lifted directly from the Daily Mail or Express IMO

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[clint van damme]

How the NHS wastes £7.6bn a year | Daily Mail Online
I know its from the mail but there were others (guardian included) which showed a similar vein(if you pardon the pun). Its just too big to be managed properly in my view. Too many places or chains for people to hide and not take responsibility for actions, collection of fees for treating foreign patients is a prime one.

Tory bingo

daily mail quote
defend defunding of NHS
Try to pass blame to foreigners

you nearly had a full house but you didn't mention benefits, unlucky.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

Tory bingo

daily mail quote
defend defunding of NHS
Try to pass blame to foreigners

you nearly had a full house but you didn't mention benefits, unlucky.

Read the post before you jump down anyone's throat screaming Daily Mail, Daily Mail. There were similar stories in the guardian which you can see if you calm down dear.

As we're playing idiot bingo...

seven and three NHS hospitals to charge overseas patients for non-urgent care

on its own NHS wastes over £2bn a year on unnecessary or expensive treatments

 

[skybluetony176]

What a load of bullshit. Where have I said vote Tory? What I have said is both are not worthy of our vote.

I never said you did say vote Tory. I said you've convinced me to switch my vote to Labour. It just so happened that I did plan on voting Tory, which is my usual inclination although not a given.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The funny thing about the election is that Corbyn has actually performed rather well.

He seems far more engaged and more engaging. His public speaking and passion for his subject matter have all been at a far better level than anyone would have predicted.

His crowds have been fixed as is the way but even it's clearly been a surprise.

He was the same in the leadership contests. Against the robotic Andy Burnham, the pseudo Tory Liz Kendall and the vague platitudes of Yvette Cooper his passion stood out. It is just a shame he is doing it only now and not over the dispatch box against a wavering PM.

 

[fernandopartridge]

How the NHS wastes £7.6bn a year | Daily Mail Online
I know its from the mail but there were others (guardian included) which showed a similar vein(if you pardon the pun). Its just too big to be managed properly in my view. Too many places or chains for people to hide and not take responsibility for actions, collection of fees for treating foreign patients is a prime one.

Some very valid points in that article about the disaggregation of buying power, something the Tories have made worse. That said, the oft referenced fact that different Trusts pay different amounts for surgical gloves ignores how important medics find them.

I agree with all the stuff on management consultants. However, they are the winners when the NHS decide to restructure, hence why giving money to the frontline hospitals is a better idea in the first instance, otherwise it gets wasted on consultants telling you what colour the sky is.

 

[clint van damme]

Read the post before you jump down anyone's throat screaming Daily Mail, Daily Mail. There were similar stories in the guardian which you can see if you calm down dear.

As we're playing idiot bingo...

seven and three NHS hospitals to charge overseas patients for non-urgent care

on its own NHS wastes over £2bn a year on unnecessary or expensive treatments

I was just been flippant, chill out man.

 

[JimmyHillsbeard]

The funny thing about the election is that Corbyn has actually performed rather well.

He seems far more engaged and more engaging. His public speaking and passion for his subject matter have all been at a far better level than anyone would have predicted.

His crowds have been fixed as is the way but even it's clearly been a surprise.

Yep what a pity he went on fkin holiday during last year's EuRef

 

[Grendel]

He was the same in the leadership contests. Against the robotic Andy Burnham, the pseudo Tory Liz Kendall and the vague platitudes of Yvette Cooper his passion stood out. It is just a shame he is doing it only now and not over the dispatch box against a wavering PM.

Strange how he seemed so weak and reticent over Brexit.

Why was that?

 

[clint van damme]

Strange how he seemed so weak and reticent over Brexit.

Why was that?

we all know why, I will never excuse him not sticking up for his non EU beliefs but let's not pretend that may and johnson didn't do the same with regard to their previous pro eu stance..

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Strange how he seemed so weak and reticent over Brexit.

Why was that?

Had always wanted out of the EU but was put under huge pressure to support Remain. Odd really, an openly pro-Brexit Labour leader could have mopped up the UKIP vote as the Tories have now done.

He is a poor man's Bernie Sanders.

 

[Brylowes]

amazing that this tax changes and changes to the corporation tax come under so much scrutiny but we're all supposed to accept that cuts to vital services are a necessary evil and we shouldn't question them too much.
Class sizes rising to 35-40, fine.
Loss of 20,000 police officers, fine.
Implementation of the Naylor report, fine.

Rise in corporation tax, changes to private school tax exemption, right wing melt down.

We're slowly becoming an apartheid state, but segregation will be based on wealth rather than race. Some people will be happy to sit in their gated communities counting their money, they were in South Africa, and to a lesser extent, they are in the States but that's not the sort of society I want to live in. Where poor people are denied health care and education and are suppose to be grateful to their overlords for a zero hour contract with no workers rights.

And yet when they were initiating the deepest cuts to Social care, public services and welfare
we we're told it was going to be painful BUT !!! We were "all in it together"
Except we weren't were we, they chose that exact moment to implement a 5% tax cut for the
Country's highest earners, their hypocrisy knows no bounds.