George Floyd (1 Viewer)

[skybluetony176]

Not at all, it's just that you have to also cut through people claiming racism when it goes too far the other way (see the racist football fans chasing the innocent young black boys). Of course there is the horrible racism that you see where people are straight up racist, I will openly say there's far more stuff that goes on in the background that isn't seen which is what people need to know about. People will throw stats about to suit as well.

All I mean is that there's so much political agenda, media spin, propaganda that it's no surprise people are confused recently. Much the same as brexit.

Then I really can’t understand why you’re finding the message so confusing. You apparently know and acknowledge that there’s inequality, of you know that then surely it’s self explanatory.

 

---

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Why do people necessarily HAVE to have an opinion on it and then voice it?

For example the whole situation about gender and all the different types. I don’t totally understand it (and not because I am being intentionally ignorant) but people should just be allowed to be what they want to be. I don’t have to share my opinion because it adds nothing to a debate I know nothing about.

The thing with gender can be problematic from a healthcare point of view. if someone who is trans sees a doctor and their birth gender (and thus genes) make them more susceptible to a certain illness and the doctor points this out the patient could be offended.

Admittedly most sane, sensible people should see the doctors viewpoint, but there would undoubtedly be a few stupid 'woke' people who would claim it was a hate crime as that person had now transitioned.

 

[Nick]

Then I really can’t understand why you’re finding the message so confusing. You apparently know and acknowledge that there’s inequality, of you know that then surely it’s self explanatory.

Because I am asking how we fix it? What can we do?

Yeah I acknowledge it goes on that we don't see but where, when, how? How can we change it? I'm asking where this is going on that isn't easily seen.

Kneeling down at a certain time won't fix it, so what will?

Is it just a case of acknowledging it and job done? It's as if somebody should just say "Black Lives Matter" at me and I fully understand it and the world will suddenly change. Do I just say "I know there's equality, it's bad" and then not ask anything else? It seems like it judging by the responses and your lack of ability to back up some of the claims you have made.

That's it then, education is racist. That's that. No questions asked, let's fuck some shit up.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I can see the thinking here. History shows when an indigenous population show compassion it usually doesn't end well for them. This is especially true in America. Thanksgiving celebrates Native Americans taking pity on the white settlers who would have almost certainly died out where it not for that help. Then over the next few centuries that was repaid by effectively exterminating them. The Roman Empire became more forgiving towards Christians until they basically took them over.

I thinks that's why Malcolm X isn't given as much credence as MLK - arguably for him it wasn't about equality - it was about supremacy. So when you see things like BLM, Feminism, NAACP etc those are terms that could easily over time become used for supremacy but due to the historic connection with improved rights/equality it's hard to point that out without being accused of hate crimes. A bit like we see now with Israel where any criticism is just met with the standard "anti-semite" accusation.

We are of course a long, long way from that point right now though.

Thats well put. Stephen Hawking no less said something similar.

 

[Ian1779]

The thing with gender can be problematic from a healthcare point of view. if someone who is trans sees a doctor and their birth gender (and thus genes) make them more susceptible to a certain illness and the doctor points this out the patient could be offended.

Admittedly most sane, sensible people should see the doctors viewpoint, but there would undoubtedly be a few stupid 'woke' people who would claim it was a hate crime as that person had now transitioned.

You’ve highlighted my point there - I’m not aware of what you’ve just said, rather than pretend I do I think I’d contribute more by not contributing.

 

[David O'Day]

2020 ladies and gentleman

 

[Nick]

You’ve highlighted my point there - I’m not aware of what you’ve just said, rather than pretend I do I think I’d contribute more by not contributing.

Isn't the whole idea of it to raise awareness and bring change, though?

Bit pointless if everybody should just nod and agree without fully understanding.

 

[Ian1779]

Isn't the whole idea of it to raise awareness and bring change, though?

Yes - but my awareness can be raised without sharing of my opinion.

 

[Nick]

Yes - but my awareness can be raised without sharing of my opinion.

People can also learn more by asking questions, sharing opinions and being open to having them changed while learning things.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

People can also learn more by asking questions, sharing opinions and being open to having them changed while learning things.

If someone shares an opinion you can see where there is a need to improve the understanding as it'll highlight which bits they appear ignorant towards. Similarly even if they have little idea on the issue they may come up with a good point within it that adds to the debate. "From the mouth of babes" and all that.

Whereas if everyone stays quiet on everything they don't fully understand we're going to end up almost silent and things will never be questioned or changed. It'd just be 'this is the way it's done'. We'd lose the "I don't understand why it's done like that?" and "could this be a better solution?"

 

[Nick]

If someone shares an opinion you can see where there is a need to improve the understanding as it'll highlight which bits they appear ignorant towards. Similarly even if they have little idea on the issue they may come up with a good point within it that adds to the debate. "From the mouth of babes" and all that.

Whereas if everyone stays quiet on everything they don't fully understand we're going to end up almost silent and things will never be questioned or changed. It'd just be 'this is the way it's done'. We'd lose the "I don't understand why it's done like that?" and "could this be a better solution?"

Exactly, which is why I am asking what we can do to change it, where is it happening most that we don't see etc.

From doing that I have had the implication I am racist, stupid, naive (I pretty much am to be fair) and don't want to understand.

I fully get the point there is equality but what now, what do we need to change going forward? That's what I am asking that doesn't seem to get an answer. It's OK people throwing out that X and Y is racist, police are racist, job agencies are racist but how and how does it change going forward.

There probably is lots I have missed which Is why I am asking, my point was that information isn't really that easy to find. What needs to change now. I know black people need to be equal, I have been brought up like that. I don't run a job agency or hire people, what can a normal person not in a position of power do?

 

[ajsccfc]

From what I've seen of Allison Pearson she's another of those empty vessels who have smartly seen being a shithead as a lucrative pursuit.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Because I am asking how we fix it? What can we do?

Yeah I acknowledge it goes on that we don't see but where, when, how? How can we change it? I'm asking where this is going on that isn't easily seen.

Kneeling down at a certain time won't fix it, so what will?

Is it just a case of acknowledging it and job done? It's as if somebody should just say "Black Lives Matter" at me and I fully understand it and the world will suddenly change. Do I just say "I know there's equality, it's bad" and then not ask anything else? It seems like it judging by the responses and your lack of ability to back up some of the claims you have made.

That's it then, education is racist. That's that. No questions asked, let's fuck some shit up.

It’s where I was left on the Sunday at the march. Forget anyone with set ideas over 7 years of age and get the education right for them so they don’t hear anything other than pure equality of opportunity etc etc

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

How long is this taking the knee before a football match going on for ?
Was it just the first game back or is it every week u til the season's end?
Imagine the absolute shit a (white) player would get if he thought " you know what, nothings getting done , this has run its course, I'm not doing it any more"

 

[Nick]

It’s where I was left on the Sunday at the march. Forget anyone with set ideas over 7 years of age and get the education right for them so they don’t hear anything other than pure equality of opportunity etc etc

The thing is though, kids who are that age are more likely to be open to equality than say our grandparents generation.

My daughter is 11, she doesn't give a fuck about what colour or religion her friends are. She has learnt more about other religions and cultures then I ever did at school and im glad she has. In her class theres a good mix of black, white, Asian, Muslim, sikh, Hindu kids and to them they are just mates. A couple of her mates go to pray at school and it's nothing to her, it's part of life.

 

[Nick]

How long is this taking the knee before a football match going on for ?
Was it just the first game back or is it every week u til the season's end?
Imagine the absolute shit a (white) player would get if he thought " you know what, nothings getting done , this has run its course, I'm not doing it any more"

That's the thing, like with anything (not just this) and it's nothing against the cause. When it goes on too long it loses the meaning and point of it. The same as clapping the NHS did, people feel like it's a chore etc.

The first time it happened it made a statement, nobody was expecting it.

The thing is then, it becomes expected. You see on social media, people demanding that celebs change their picture etc. Almost forcing people to do things like that.

 

[clint van damme]

How long is this taking the knee before a football match going on for ?
Was it just the first game back or is it every week u til the season's end?
Imagine the absolute shit a (white) player would get if he thought " you know what, nothings getting done , this has run its course, I'm not doing it any more"

he would get a load of shit, but I bet it wouldn't ruin his career like Colin Kaepernick though.
However, I do agree, time to end it now. The gesture loses its power when it keeps getting repeated anyway in my opinion.

 

[Ian1779]

People can also learn more by asking questions, sharing opinions and being open to having them changed while learning things.

I’m just saying there can be a balance between the two

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The thing is though, kids who are that age are more likely to be open to equality than say our grandparents generation.

My daughter is 11, she doesn't give a fuck about what colour or religion her friends are. She has learnt more about other religions and cultures then I ever did at school and im glad she has. In her class theres a good mix of black, white, Asian, Muslim, sikh, Hindu kids and to them they are just mates. A couple of her mates go to pray at school and it's nothing to her, it's part of life.

Sorry I didn’t say it well. Kids are ace. It was anyone over 7 (exaggerating to make my point) that needs to just be forgotten about as far to set in our / their ways.

It was a pussies way out of a difficult issue. Don’t confront and bury my head while it doesn’t affect me. I was prettty lucky growing up in my white middle class upbringing to fall into a crowd at my school of naughty football fans and a couple of black guys in my friendship group. They were very badly treated by the police especially at football as we grew up and especially in areas where there weren’t many black people. I’ve often spoken to them about things. One is a copper the other a social worker. One very chilled and the other not but both top top blokes. Loyal and wonderful friends to this day.

Two examples were completely down to them being black. One being stopped while driving in earlsdon and the other being targeted by police at an away game in Blackburn for doing the same as every other fan.

One other anecdotal story as a teenager I was attacked by a group of black teenagers with knives and mugged in Birmingham town centre in broad daylight and to this day I am still very scared walking around on my own.

final anecdote is my union work and advocating for many Asian colleagues who have been bullied and harassed in the workplace.

I’ve been reflecting on my Christian faith too and whether given the atrocities of the past it’s ok for me to be a Christian given what I know about what Christians before me and around the world are doing and feeling enabled by their god who gives them the strength. I’ve decided I am and will do all I can to live the values Jesus embodied and challenged me with in the beatitudes.

I know I’m scared walking around public places and am wary about black teenagers but there’s a reason for it and I know my experience is not reality for everyone and unlikely to be for me again either

It’s no longer enough for me to believe in equality and not do all in my power to ensure where I can it becomes a reality

 

[Nick]

Sorry I didn’t say it well. Kids are ace. It was anyone over 7 (exaggerating to make my point) that needs to just be forgotten about as far to set in our / their ways.

It was a pussies way out of a difficult issue. Don’t confront and bury my head while it doesn’t affect me. I was prettty lucky growing up in my white middle class upbringing to fall into a crowd at my school of naughty football fans and a couple of black guys in my friendship group. They were very badly treated by the police especially at football as we grew up and especially in areas where there weren’t many black people. I’ve often spoken to them about things. One is a copper the other a social worker. One very chilled and the other not but both top top blokes. Loyal and wonderful friends to this day.

Two examples were completely down to them being black. One being stopped while driving in earlsdon and the other being targeted by police at an away game in Blackburn for doing the same as every other fan.

One other anecdotal stories as a teenager I was attacked by a group of black teenagers with knives and mugged and to this day I am still very scared walking around on my own.

final anecdote is my union work and advocating for many Asian colleagues who have been bullied and harassed in the workplace.

I’ve been reflecting on my Christian faith too and whether given the atrocities of the past it’s ok for me to be a Christian given what I know about what Christians before me and around the world are doing and feeling enabled by their god who gives them the strength. I’ve decided I am and will do all I can to live the values Jesus embodied and challenged me with in the beatitudes.

It’s no longer enough for me to believe in equality and not do all in my power to ensure where I can it becomes a reality

It's OK, I got what you meant.

I posted the link the interview with Steven French (the scouse guy) who talks about life back in the day and has a fair few stories like that. It was interesting that he actually said he preferred somebody to walk up to him and shout racist slurs in the street than the sly, behind the scenes manipulative stuff. (Obviously it was just his view).

It's very much the other generations that need to understand how, where, what and why if they can't see things that aren't happening to them. To ask that isn't denying it's happening.

 

[SBT]

Robbie Earle was very powerful about this - worth a watch:

We can all make the easy choice if we want - deny we have any racial bias, say the problems are overblown, chase after strawman arguments, blame the media, blame the other side etc etc. But if you're actually serious about wanting to make things better (and not just saying it in the hope that things die down and you can get back to your normally scheduled programming), you have to accept it's going to be uncomfortable for you, and everyone else.

 

[Nick]

Robbie Earle was very powerful about this - worth a watch:

We can all make the easy choice if we want - deny we have any racial bias, say the problems are overblown, chase after strawman arguments, blame the media, blame the other side etc etc. But if you're actually serious about wanting to make things better (and not just saying it in the hope that things die down and you can get back to your normally scheduled programming), you have to accept it's going to be uncomfortable for you, and everyone else.

This is the sort of thing that needs to be shown more rather than riots and bullshit. I don't think I have seen anything as eye opening as that on the premier league games on sky. That's the sort of thing I meant about when Prince William sat people down in a changing room and discussed mental health.

I've never seen the nudge that he talks of into pubs etc but I probably have seen people cross roads because they are "scared" and not realised it.

How do we change that? The example he gave was a woman crossing the road because they are scared of him and then crossing over. How do you change people's thought process completely?

 

[shmmeee]

This is the sort of thing that needs to be shown more rather than riots and bullshit. I don't think I have seen anything as eye opening as that on the premier league games on sky.

I've never seen the nudge that he talks of into pubs etc but I probably have seen people cross roads because they are "scared" and not realised it.

How do we change that?

Exposure is the only way. Once the sight of a black person isn’t comment worthy, or you know more black people than the kid that robbed you and what you see on the news it goes away.

I worry that as a society we are getting less integrated though. Not just black and white but poor and rich, left and right. And that makes it a massive problem we have no idea how to start fixing. It comes back to social mobility, benefits for single parents, how you build houses, schools policy, all sorts of things and it’s been happening for 40 odd years to hit this point.

Which is incredibly frustrating for both those that need it to end now and those sick of hearing about it and those who want concrete action to take.

It probably means at least more efforts for positive representation, but then you get the complaints about over representation. We need to see more black professionals and black middle class people, those take decades or more to see.

 

[Nick]

Exposure is the only way. Once the sight of a black person isn’t comment worthy, or you know more black people than the kid that robbed you and what you see on the news it goes away.

I worry that as a society we are getting less integrated though. Not just black and white but poor and rich, left and right. And that makes it a massive problem we have no idea how to start fixing. It comes back to social mobility, how you build houses, schools policy, all sorts of things and it’s been happening for 40 odd years to hit this point.

Which is incredibly frustrating for both those that need it to end now and those sick of hearing about it and those who want concrete action to take.

It probably means at least more efforts for positive representation, but then you get the complaints about over representation. We need to see more black professionals and black middle class people, those take decades or more to see.

I don't think the sight of a black person is comment worthy to be fair (some will do, obviously ) but I know what you mean about integration.

That's why it's shit how on the news you see people being violent at protests and miss the old veterans sat talking to the young BLM protestors. It's why we need more coverage of people like the guy who saved the lad from being stamped on. The media seem to want to get viewers with all of the divisive shit (much the same as brexit etc) and stir it all up.

I also think everybody needs to face up to the good and bad of their "community", not saying that if somebody is a wrong un then everybody is. Everybody I have seen about that racist prick in broadgate has said exactly that, called him out and condemned it. Whereas when you see people speaking about the 2 lads it was never possible that they could have had a knife and they were innocent and that the white lad planted it in the bin. If somebody is carrying a knife, white or black then they should be condemned and dealt with.

 

[SBT]

This is the sort of thing that needs to be shown more rather than riots and bullshit. I don't think I have seen anything as eye opening as that on the premier league games on sky. That's the sort of thing I meant about when Prince William sat people down in a changing room and discussed mental health.

I've never seen the nudge that he talks of into pubs etc but I probably have seen people cross roads because they are "scared" and not realised it.

How do we change that? The example he gave was a woman crossing the road because they are scared of him and then crossing over. How do you change people's thought process completely?

You do the first thing you did with that video - listen. Get uncomfortable. Educate yourself.

I'm sure 99% of the people who've done the things that Robbie Earle describes are folks who'd say they have no problem with black people at all. They probably weren't intending to offend anyone, they might have acted without thinking, and they almost certainly aren't your classic BNP card-carrying skinhead that we think of when we use the term 'racist'. But that doesn't change the way Robbie Earle feels when it happens. And you have a choice to either assume that you'd never do anything like that which could hurt someone's feelings that way. Or you can listen to people like him talking about this stuff for the first time, and think a little bit about why you've never heard about it before. That's what this movement is about.

It's no fun at all to realise that you might be part of the problem, even after you've learned all the basic things about equality, 'not seeing race' etc. But the problem's still there, and it's not going to fix itself. So get uncomfortable.

 

[Nick]

You do the first thing you did with that video - listen. Get uncomfortable. Educate yourself.

I'm sure 99% of the people who've done the things that Robbie Earle describes are folks who'd say they have no problem with black people at all. They probably weren't intending to offend anyone, they might have acted without thinking, and they almost certainly aren't your classic BNP card-carrying skinhead that we think of when we use the term 'racist'. But that doesn't change the way Robbie Earle feels when it happens. And you have a choice to either assume that you'd never do anything like that which could hurt someone's feelings that way. Or you can listen to people like him talking about this stuff for the first time, and think a little bit about why you've never heard about it before. That's what this movement is about.

It's no fun at all to realise that you might be part of the problem, even after you've learned all the basic things about equality, 'not seeing race' etc. But the problem's still there, and it's not going to fix itself. So get uncomfortable.

I would probably be more likely to cross over with my daughter if there was a group of people in hoodies than if there were a group of people in suits. I don't doubt that some people look at a black man and are intimidated, as shmeee says this is the thing that's wrong and is probably because those people don't know a black man.

Yeah I probably would be more intimidated based on how somebody dresses and appears much more than the colour of their skin and thinking about it. If somebody has grown up in an area and has never integrated with people of a difference race then they are going to be more wary. I don't think this is one way though, it's human nature.

People need to be asked "why would you cross the road from a person who is a different colour". Are they scared? Do they feel intimidated? Have they had something bad happen that scares them? Are they just straight up racist?

It's like the example about the kids at the school who are Muslim and need to go and pray, when I was at school if somebody went to go and pray they would be a "bible basher". My daughter doesn't bat and eyelid, it's normal. She's much more integrated than I ever was.

Still, there's no point telling people "you are part of the problem" and "if you are silent you are just as bad as the racists". Pretty sure that's just trying to stir up a divide rather than bring people together.

I know it's not on the same level and it's wrong but if I see a midget I would look twice and probably do the nudge Robbie Earle talks of. That is because it isn't something I am used to and is "different" to me. Same with Transvestites etc. I am not going to start hurling abuse but there is human nature that I would have a second look or tell my mate to have a look. I've never thought to do that based on somebody being black but there are people who do.

(Sorry to any midget transvestites)

 

[SBT]

Still, there's no point telling people "you are part of the problem" and "if you are silent you are just as bad as the racists". Pretty sure that's just trying to stir up a divide rather than bring people together.

I'm not trying to turn it into an accusation, it's just an uncomfortable fact - nothing to be ashamed of. I say that knowing I'm part of the problem too, and I can do more. If I sat around and patted myself on the back for all the non-racist stuff I've done in my life so far, and argued at every turn that race had nothing to do with the way I think, and how society works, that wouldn't be a great start. It's awkward, but it's better if I try.

 

[Nick]

I'm not trying to turn it into an accusation, it's just an uncomfortable fact - nothing to be ashamed of. I say that knowing I'm part of the problem too, and I can do more. If I sat around and patted myself on the back for all the non-racist stuff I've done in my life so far, and argued at every turn that race had nothing to do with the way I think, and how society works, that wouldn't be a great start. It's awkward, but it's better if I try.

I know but I just don't think that way of going about it is helpful and will just end up causing more hassle when telling everybody they are part of the problem and as some people have said on signs and t shirts etc "just as bad as the racists".

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Robbie Earle was very powerful about this - worth a watch:

We can all make the easy choice if we want - deny we have any racial bias, say the problems are overblown, chase after strawman arguments, blame the media, blame the other side etc etc. But if you're actually serious about wanting to make things better (and not just saying it in the hope that things die down and you can get back to your normally scheduled programming), you have to accept it's going to be uncomfortable for you, and everyone else.

Wow watched it all now! I did think Ben mee was excellent

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Let's say that we all support BLM in terms of getting equal rights/opportunity for all people living in this country .
How will we know when we've got there ?

 

[Otis]

Let's say that we all support BLM in terms of getting equal rights/opportunity for all people living in this country .
How will we know when we've got there ?

When we have a black James Bond and Jimmy White changes his surname.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Let's say that we all support BLM in terms of getting equal rights/opportunity for all people living in this country .
How will we know when we've got there ?

All of us will be dead and buried before we achieve equality in my opinion. It'll take generations of change.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

(Sorry to any midget transvestites)

You bastard.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

All of us will be dead and buried before we achieve equality in my opinion. It'll take generations of change.

The point is, there is no point at which people will agree that such a point is reached. Its a forever moving target.

 

[Skybluefaz]

The point is, there is no point at which people will agree that such a point is reached. Its a forever moving target.

So we just give up then?