George Floyd (1 Viewer)

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

what are you on about now for fucks sake?
I have been arguing with Nick all morning, it's not just me disagreeing with him, he's also disagreeing with me, that's debate.
I doubt he's getting stressed about it, I'm certainly not.

I'm not reading this lot again!!

Trying to make me look like an idiot when literally 5 minutes later you concede indirectly to the very point I was just making.

There is very limited debate on here. Same with the corona thread. It is just a tory bashing wank fest.

Nick has been very balanced and whilst probably not being as politically invested as most of you, has given a fair account. I think many of you have treated him like shit to be honest. You would be mistaken for thinking he actually had said something racist given some of the overblown reactions on here.

 

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[Deleted member 5849]

Not as if he provided any constructive input, just effectively shouted racist or gammon over and over.

So what you're bacially saying is you have beef with David O'Day

 

[clint van damme]

Trying to make me look like an idiot when literally 5 minutes later you concede indirectly to the very point I was just making.

There is very limited debate on here. Same with the corona thread. It is just a tory bashing wank fest.

Nick has been very balanced and whilst probably not being as politically invested as most of you, has given a fair account. I think many of you have treated him like shit to be honest. You would be mistaken for thinking he actually had said something racist given some of the overblown reactions on here.

Really? I haven't mentioned the tories too much in the George Floyd debate, I've mentioned them a lot in the corona one. How can you have a discussion on it without mentioning them?
I also will never agree with Nicks attempts to remove politics from the debates, they're all about politics, I've argued that point with him, he's argued back.

Treated like shit? Give us a break.

 

[Nick]

So what you're bacially saying is you have beef with David O'Day

Nah, I have an issue with

"You are part of the problem"
"You dont want to understand"
"It should be like a SISU thread where people just nod and agree"
"White silence is violence" (Not so much on here)

Even when I suggested that some of it might be virtue signalling there was disgust.
Any critisism of Black Lives Matter was frowned upon because they were just fighting for change. Don't mention them walking on the M6 etc etc.
As soon as the Fat White knobheads with union jack tattoos come out then it's a disgrace, thugs, extremists, far right etc.

Funny thing is, the majority of people are all over the Brexit / Corona thread because it's politics. Live and breath the fucking stuff. "Oh which MP can I look to blame", "Which manifesto can I look to for advice"?, "Oh people commit crime because of the government and lack of things to do"

People are far too blinded by politics and the lefty / righty / remainer/ brexiteer / whataboutery / gammon bullshit, at least when it comes to CCFC I am happy to admit I am massively biased.

As soon as people start making it the right / left shite or give it the "you are deflecting for the left / right" it's pointless.

It's not that hard to point out that people can be massive pricks regardless, there's no actual constructive discussion in this thread about how to change or go forward because everybody wants to make it about what a politician said or did. Fuck that.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Nah, I have an issue with

"You are part of the problem"
"It should be like a SISU thread where people just nod and agree"
"White silence is violence" (Not so much on here)

Even when I suggested that some of it might be virtue signalling there was disgust.
Any critisism of Black Lives Matter was frowned upon because they were just fighting for change. Don't mention them walking on the M6 etc etc.
As soon as the Fat White knobheads with union jack tattoos come out then it's a disgrace, thugs, extremists, far right etc.

Funny thing is, the majority of people are all over the Brexit / Corona thread because it's politics. Live and breath the fucking stuff. "Oh which MP can I look to blame", "Which manifesto can I look to for advice"?, "Oh people commit crime because of the government and lack of things to do"

People are far too blinded by politics and the lefty / righty / remainer/ brexiteer / whataboutery / gammon bullshit, at least when it comes to CCFC I am happy to admit I am massively biased.

As soon as people start making it the right / left shite or give it the "you are deflecting for the left / right" it's pointless.

It's not that hard to point out that people can be massive pricks regardless, there's no actual constructive discussion in this thread about how to change or go forward because everybody wants to make it about what a politician said or did. Fuck that.

You know, much of this is bollocks.

If Rees Mogg were to say that Black Lives Matter, he supports the cause of racial equality, then that would be absolutely fine, good, and progress. That wouldn't alter the fact that he is a reactionary anti-abortionist elsewhere in his views.

As has been pointed out several times, there is absolutely nothing wrong in agreeing with the phrase Black Lives Matter. because they do. There's nothing wrong with being part of a movement either and, in fact, it's political to try and link me, then, as a reactionary tofu loving Communist / Marxist who has shrines to Mao and Stalin in his garden.

What is virtue signalling anyway? it's an empty phrase to continue the luddite status quo. It's as meaningless a phrase as gammon, snowflake.

Even the very statement that it's not political is, well... political! How society functions is political, the choices it makes are political. I repeat, what is more politcal than the subjugation of black men and women? It's as political as it gets.

But, again, this is an endless circle. it's clear I won't change your view (and for that matter, it's unlikely you'd change mine) so why are we bothering? Why don't we just let it drop instead of repeating the same again, and obliging people to jump in, in response?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

You know, much of this is bollocks.

But, again, this is an endless circle. it's clear I won't change your view (and for that matter, it's unlikely you'd change mine) so why are we bothering? Why don't we just let it drop instead of repeating the same again, and obliging people to jump in, in response?

Why don't you go first ?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Why don't you go first ?

Well, I'm doing the jumping in and responding after the same is repeated time and time again. More than happy to go for a mutual pact. Tried to suggest that all morning before biting.

Got anything to add that's interesting or worthwhile?

 

[Nick]

You know, much of this is bollocks.

If Rees Mogg were to say that Black Lives Matter, he supports the cause of racial equality, then that would be absolutely fine, good, and progress. That wouldn't alter the fact that he is a reactionary anti-abortionist elsewhere in his views.

As has been pointed out several times, there is absolutely nothing wrong in agreeing with the phrase Black Lives Matter. because they do. There's nothing wrong with being part of a movement either and, in fact, it's political to try and link me, then, as a reactionary tofu loving Communist / Marxist who has shrines to Mao and Stalin in his garden.

What is virtue signalling anyway? it's an empty phrase to continue the luddite status quo. It's as meaningless a phrase as gammon, snowflake.

Even the very statement that it's not political is, well... political! How society functions is political, the choices it makes are political. I repeat, what is more politcal than the subjugation of black men and women? It's as political as it gets.

But, again, this is an endless circle. it's clear I won't change your view (and for that matter, it's unlikely you'd change mine) so why are we bothering? Why don't we just let it drop instead of repeating the same again, and obliging people to jump in, in response?

Yeah you have some nice words and everything to patronise.

There are lots of phrases that can support the cause of racial equality, I don't doubt that it needs looking into but maybe not pick a phrase thought up by somebody using it to push political views and trying to raise a few quid. It must just be a massive coincidence at how similar they are.

Yeah, some posh prick could adjust article 67 Point 2 in the manifesto to get people hard but let's be realistic. The politicians will do what the politicians want to do and what suits them.

If people are jumping onto a movement because it's the movement that's all over the TV at that moment then it's a bit of a bandwagon, like when I compare it to the NHS clapping. It dilutes and distracts away from the actual point. I don't think racial equality is a bandwagon, people live it every day and that's what needs to be sorted. It won't when people just want to use it as a front for political point scoring though back and forth, righty lefty.

How much of this thread is constructive? How much of it is discussing things that could be actually changed or done in the real world for people like us who couldn't give a shit about the righty / lefty stuff. I don't want to be told that because I ask questions I am part of the problem or my silence is violence, whenever I ask about what can be done it's then swiftly turned to politicians.

I was hoping for some constructive discussion. Some eye openers, there has been a few posts that have but a lot of it is where people are too obsessed with political bias.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Yeah you have some nice words and everything to patronise.

There are lots of phrases that can support the cause of racial equality, I don't doubt that it needs looking into but maybe not pick a phrase thought up by somebody using it to push political views and trying to raise a few quid. It must just be a massive coincidence at how similar they are.

Yeah, some posh prick could adjust article 67 Point 2 in the manifesto to get people hard but let's be realistic. The politicians will do what the politicians want to do and what suits them.

If people are jumping onto a movement because it's the movement that's all over the TV at that moment then it's a bit of a bandwagon, like when I compare it to the NHS clapping. It dilutes and distracts away from the actual point. I don't think racial equality is a bandwagon, people live it every day and that's what needs to be sorted. It won't when people just want to use it as a front for political point scoring though back and forth, righty lefty.

How much of this thread is constructive? How much of it is discussing things that could be actually changed or done in the real world for people like us who couldn't give a shit about the righty / lefty stuff. I don't want to be told that because I ask questions I am part of the problem or my silence is violence, whenever I ask about what can be done it's then swiftly turned to politicians.

I was hoping for some constructive discussion. Some eye openers, there has been a few posts that have but a lot of it is where people are too obsessed with political bias.

I'll go first, I'm going to stop and let you have the last word, as you clearly want it so much.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Well, I'm doing the jumping in and responding after the same is repeated time and time again. More than happy to go for a mutual pact. Tried to suggest that all morning before biting.

Got anything to add that's interesting or worthwhile?

oh god, not compared to your intellectul drivel, no.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

oh god, not compared to your intellectul drivel, no.

Damn those intellectuals!

Fancy having a brain eh, that's a real insult... especially from a teacher. I bet people at school love you when you insult the talented students and tell them to be less impressive.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Damn those intellectuals!

Fancy having a brain eh, that's a real insult... especially from a teacher. I bet people at school love you when you insult the talented students and tell them to be less impressive.

Is that the best you can do ? Sadly for you I can separate my professional duties from this .
But I'm good at spotting unadulterated bullshit. That stuff you aimed at Nick was absolute bullshit of the highest quality .Well done Sir. You clearly have lots of time on your hands.

 

[chiefdave]

It seems things have been deflected right into a go fund me.

Probably not worth getting too worked up about the GoFundMe. Looking at the number of donations it equates to about 0.05% of the population donating.

 

[Nick]

Probably not worth getting too worked up about the GoFundMe. Looking at the number of donations it equates to about 0.05% of the population donating.

Not really worked up, just pointing out the aim of just happening to have things in the same name.

 

[chiefdave]

I keep saying it but how you can't grasp that almost everything we do is political is incredible.

 

[Nick]

View attachment 15708

More like I am saying that I am not going to rely on some pricks in London who live in a completely different world to shape everything for me (good or bad).

Some people are far too clouded by which political party, whether somebody is a lefty or a righty, can they blame the party they don't support.

It really is like watching a match thread but replacing CCFC for something else, people go mental when the opposition time waste but love it when CCFC do it. Im more than happy to say I am one of those people when it comes to football. Most of the threads must be like what it's like to watch a football match as a neutral.

 

[SBT]

How much of this thread is constructive? How much of it is discussing things that could be actually changed or done in the real world for people like us who couldn't give a shit about the righty / lefty stuff. I don't want to be told that because I ask questions I am part of the problem or my silence is violence, whenever I ask about what can be done it's then swiftly turned to politicians.

I think it's disingenuous to say that you're only interested in constructive real-world change, when the overwhelming majority of the questions you ask are geared towards undermining the Black Lives Matter movement in some way. I think you've got some valid concerns about some of the more extremist parts of BLM - and that's fine! - but if you really care about racial justice, is it more important to tune that stuff out, or spend several pages complaining about it online? Stuff like the leftie group using the Black Lives Matter name to advance their agenda is the kind of thing which is very easy to ignore if you're sympathetic to the anti-racism cause. And on the other hand, if you'd rather not do anything about racism, it's one of those dealbreaker things that proves you're completely justified in ignoring the whole thing. You seem to me like you're more in the latter camp - is it actually the case that you're not really interested in joining any anti-racism movement, because to be honest you think the whole thing's a bit overblown and you'd rather just see people try and get along instead? I don't think you have to be afraid to express that opinion, certainly not on here.

 

[Nick]

I think it's disingenuous to say that you're only interested in constructive real-world change, when the overwhelming majority of the questions you ask are geared towards undermining the Black Lives Matter movement in some way. I think you've got some valid concerns about some of the more extremist parts of BLM - and that's fine! - but if you really care about racial justice, is it more important to tune that stuff out, or spend several pages complaining about it online? Stuff like the leftie group using the Black Lives Matter name to advance their agenda is the kind of thing which is very easy to ignore if you're sympathetic to the anti-racism cause. And on the other hand, if you'd rather not do anything about racism, it's one of those dealbreaker things that proves you're completely justified in ignoring the whole thing. You seem to me like you're more in the latter camp - is it actually the case that you're not really interested in joining any anti-racism movement, because to be honest you think the whole thing's a bit overblown and you'd rather just see people try and get along instead? I don't think you have to be afraid to express that opinion, certainly not on here.

It's not just "using a name". That's the thing, if it was some chancers who rush to make a quick buck I could understand.

The black lives matter thing is massively overblown, racial equality isn't. My point has been that we hear about politicians, America etc but a lot of it isn't going to make the majority of people understand. It's causing more division because of the politics.

People getting on won't change things but having a constructive discussion will at least start to open people's eyes to things so they can think. (Rather than somebody telling me im part of the problem for example). It's not burying heads or denying things happen, it's opening eyes and minds to it properly.

I've been trying to have constructive discussion, made suggestions etc.

 

[RegTheDonk]

no, but politics govern our lives, it's inescapable. Racism in on the rise, I'm not responsible but I can't influence the whole of society, politicians can.
I haven't been to an illegal rave but I can't stop people, politicians can. They put enough effort into stopping them in the 80s.

Certainly it's down to government to set the laws and the police to enforce them. Just as much the public need to obay them. People are responsible for their own actions - nobody forces them to go to a rave.

You've got to ask why racism is on the rise clint. Yes there's a major problem in America and I can appreciate people over here wanting to support that. But some of the antics is going to fuel racism, never mind those that want to dig a little deeper rather than jumping just on the slogans.

And it's daft things making issues out of non-issues which are pouring petrol on the flames, like the point ROS brought up about the PFA study. Do they honestly think anybody prior to this study has given one thought that commentators describe players in the way they have is a blatent racist dig at them? And are the commentators even aware of it, or have Motty, Pearce, and the like secretly been subscribing to KKK Weeky?

All this does is give an excuse for the racists to be more racist; black people to get more angry; and give commentators like our poor old own Clive the gaff get an unjustified guilt trip should he inadvertently say Max's nearly broke the back of the net with that shot.

I'm certainly not saying we don't have to do more to promote harmony between cultures - anything that can uplift equality by making the current laws and attitudes better should be promoted. For FFS can we please stop looking for daft excuses to cause division. We need to mend wounds, not find obscure ways to open them.

 

[SBT]

It's not just "using a name". That's the thing, if it was some chancers who rush to make a quick buck I could understand.

The black lives matter thing is massively overblown, racial equality isn't. My point has been that we hear about politicians, America etc but a lot of it isn't going to make the majority of people understand. It's causing more division because of the politics.

People getting on won't change things but having a constructive discussion will at least start to open people's eyes to things so they can think. (Rather than somebody telling me im part of the problem for example). It's not burying heads or denying things happen, it's opening eyes and minds to it properly.

I've been trying to have constructive discussion, made suggestions etc.

I'm not going to argue with most of that. But I do think it's interesting that you take offense to being told you're part of the problem. Personally I don't have any issue with being told that, and find that it's been quite useful in terms of opening my eyes and mind to it properly. Anyway! On with the constructive discussion....right?

 

[Nick]

I'm not going to argue with most of that. But I do think it's interesting that you take offense to being told you're part of the problem. Personally I don't have any issue with being told that, and find that it's been quite useful in terms of opening my eyes and mind to it properly. Anyway! On with the constructive discussion....right?

I'd have no issue with being constructively told why I'm part of the problem. Funnily enough the ones shouting stuff like that havent been able to tell me why I'm part of the problem for asking questions. It's far easier to just shout racist than answer difficult questions.

Again though, that's your way of trying to make out somebody is in denial about racism.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

And it's daft things making issues out of non-issues which are pouring petrol on the flames, like the point ROS brought up about the PFA study.

It wasn't a PFA study. The only issue made was the people poo-pooing it, the only other responses were that it was interesting, and I for one won't pass judgement on the study'd accuracy or otherwise unless and until I've read its methodology. FWIW studies like that have been going on for, oh, at least the last thirty years so it's not a new thing. What, after all, is wrong with doing some research on social attitudes and ingrained biases? What if it comes back that there is no bias? Isn't that a good thing to find out, as much as the opposite, if that turns out to be the case?

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I'm not going to argue with most of that. But I do think it's interesting that you take offense to being told you're part of the problem. Personally I don't have any issue with being told that, and find that it's been quite useful in terms of opening my eyes and mind to it properly. Anyway! On with the constructive discussion....right?

This is why change won't happen. By you basically telling someone they are part of the racism problem when they have done nothing wrong. What does that do?

For most people that puts them off and pushes them in the opposite direction.

 

[Nick]

This is why change won't happen. By you basically telling someone they are part of the racism problem when they have done nothing wrong. What does that do?

For most people that puts them off and pushes them in the opposite direction.

I've got no issue in being told that if there's an explanation as to why. When asked, they don't have any answers to it.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Trying to make me look like an idiot when literally 5 minutes later you concede indirectly to the very point I was just making.

There is very limited debate on here. Same with the corona thread. It is just a tory bashing wank fest.

Nick has been very balanced and whilst probably not being as politically invested as most of you, has given a fair account. I think many of you have treated him like shit to be honest. You would be mistaken for thinking he actually had said something racist given some of the overblown reactions on here.

The Tory bashing in the corona thread is justified. Unless you want to argue for the death rate?

 

[SBT]

This is why change won't happen. By you basically telling someone they are part of the racism problem when they have done nothing wrong. What does that do?

For most people that puts them off and pushes them in the opposite direction.

I think it's a shame if people are that fragile about it. Not that I'm some kind of model example, but when people have told me I'm part of the problem, I didn't assume they were saying I was directly responsible for racism, or was a card-carrying racist. Yeah, maybe it's a bit of a shock to the system at first, maybe even unpleasant for some people, but it does knock you out of your complacency - you would hope most people should be able to handle that. Generally speaking it's hard for change to happen if people don't examine their own way of thinking.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

This is why change won't happen. By you basically telling someone they are part of the racism problem when they have done nothing wrong. What does that do?

For most people that puts them off and pushes them in the opposite direction.

I don't think I'm racist, but if someone told me something I was doing was then I'd definitely listen up, I wouldn't just start asking "why am I being asked to apologise for being white?" and feel like going the opposite direction (which I assume means trying to be more racist?), that makes no sense. If someone says that someone or something is part of the problem then the first thing to do is listen, even though it might be uncomfortable, then make your mind up, not just automatically think its some kind of dig at white people & get all defensive. Thats nothing to do with BLM, left, right, just the bare minimum people can do if they really are genuine about wanting some changes.

 

[shmmeee]

@Nick You've given it a really good go but I would honestly save yourself the time and stress.

There is pretty much one opinion here and if you don't agree with it, even if you try to be balanced and have dialogue, you find yourself having to defend yourself in countless arguments. That's why many people don't bother any more.

I mean that’s just clear nonsense. There’s loads of opinions and decent debate happening, it’s just Nick and me not seeing eye to eye on this one thing.

If you’ve got something to say and can back it up say it, don’t be a whiny little baby.

 

[Nick]

I don't think I'm racist, but if someone told me something I was doing was then I'd definitely listen up, I wouldn't just start asking "why am I being asked to apologise for being white?" and feel like going the opposite direction (which I assume means trying to be more racist?), that makes no sense. If someone says that someone or something is part of the problem then the first thing to do is listen, even though it might be uncomfortable, then make your mind up, not just automatically think its some kind of dig at white people & get all defensive. Thats nothing to do with BLM, left, right, just the bare minimum people can do if they really are genuine about wanting some changes.

But nobody has told me why or gone into details? It's just people firing that off, shouting racist at everything.

It quite literally is a dig used at White People.

 

[shmmeee]

I think it's a shame if people are that fragile about it. Not that I'm some kind of model example, but when people have told me I'm part of the problem, I didn't assume they were saying I was directly responsible for racism, or was a card-carrying racist. Yeah, maybe it's a bit of a shock to the system at first, maybe even unpleasant for some people, but it does knock you out of your complacency - you would hope most people should be able to handle that. Generally speaking it's hard for change to happen if people don't examine their own way of thinking.

This is a quite a patronising approach TBH. It’s normal especially for men to want to offer a solution to a problem given to them. Simply saying “examine your thinking” is a cop out, OK I’ve examined and think it’s great what now?

We are at a point in racial justice where it’s not easy to see the next steps, I don’t think castigating people who ask where next as cowards or lazy or worse racists is the right approach.

Social justice movements need to be kinder. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

[Nick]

This is a quite a patronising approach TBH. It’s normal especially for men to want to offer a solution to a problem given to them. Simply saying “examine your thinking” is a cop out, OK I’ve examined and think it’s great what now?

We are at a point in racial justice where it’s not easy to see the next steps, I don’t think castigating people who ask where next as cowards or lazy or worse racists is the right approach.

Social justice movements need to be kinder. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Exactly what I've been trying to say but done it better.

If because I'm white and my silence is violence, explain things to me. Educate me. If I ask questions, answer them constructively.

It's almost as if the overall aim has been to divide and stir things up.

 

[shmmeee]

Exactly what I've been trying to say but done it better.

If because I'm white and my silence is violence, explain things to me. Educate me. If I ask questions, answer them constructively.

It's almost as if the overall aim has been to divide and stir things up.

Theres been a change in the last few years of activists refusing to argue their point or explain things and instead telling people to educate themselves or do the work or whatever. It’s just lazy. If you want to improve the world you need to put the hard yards in or leave it for someone who will. So many examples of people having conversations changing minds. I doubt there’s many of people being shamed into really changing their mind.

 

[Nick]

Theres been a change in the last few years of activists refusing to argue their point or explain things and instead telling people to educate themselves or do the work or whatever. It’s just lazy. If you want to improve the world you need to put the hard yards in or leave it for someone who will. So many examples of people having conversations changing minds. I doubt there’s many of people being shamed into really changing their mind.

If people are "shamed" they will just push back.

Obviously there's the cunts like the one in broadgate who is rightly shamed but I don't think it means everybody should be.

That's partly what I have been trying to say in this thread about constructive discussion. You will find you rarely get anything constructive when it's jumping straight in with lefty / righty shit. There's no point tell me I am part of the problem and then when asking about it to be told it's about politicians and politics.

 

[chiefdave]

But nobody has told me why or gone into details? It's just people firing that off, shouting racist at everything.

It quite literally is a dig used at White People.

Isn't it just the idea that as a white person you can't be passively anti-racist? Essentially you can be actively racist, passively racist or actively anti-racist. Think that's what is meant.

So to give an example you hear someone calling an opposition player the n-word. As a white person you might think thats disgusting and in your own mind you've ticked the box as anti-racist because you don't agree with them. You only consider yourself racist if you either join in or you agree with them.

What this is saying is that your silence enables the racism and if you are truly anti-racist you intervene.

 

[Nick]

Isn't it just the idea that as a white person you can't be passively anti-racist? Essentially you can be actively racist, passively racist or actively anti-racist. Think that's what is meant.

So to give an example you hear someone calling an opposition player the n-word. As a white person you might think thats disgusting and in your own mind you've ticked the box as anti-racist because you don't agree with them. You only consider yourself racist if you either join in or you agree with them.

What this is saying is that your silence enables the racism and if you are truly anti-racist you intervene.

Does that only apply to white people? I mean there are a lot of different factors surrounding that as to whether somebody would intervene. Does it make them to blame or a bad person? I don't think it does.