hell will freeze over... (4 Viewers)

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

bad mouth ACL and here come's MMM :claping hands:

If you read back I've been critical in this thread; but think you've got to choose your battles. I think this one is wrong. The link I put above is from the spring of 2014. Think about that and the context of the CCC loan

 

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[chiefdave]

Into 2014, Lucas would be reliant upon and quoting this sort of data, no?

http://www.coventryobserver.co.uk/2...able-despite-football-club-turmoil-98783.html

Yes but according to that article the profit was .75m which would have included a draw down from the escrow wouldn't it? Would also have included F&B from our games as we were still playing there. Could also have made an allowance for money owed by CCFC, not sure how that would have been accounted for as their must have been at least a suspicion it wouldn't be received. So how confidently on the basis of that could you state with absolute certainty that ACL would make a profit once we moved to Sixfields?

Just as well they had the bail out as even with us still playing there and the Olmypics taking place the accounts wouldn't have looked too healthy without it!

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Yes but according to that article the profit was .75m which would have included a draw down from the escrow wouldn't it? Would also have included F&B from our games as we were still playing there. Could also have made an allowance for money owed by CCFC, not sure how that would have been accounted for as their must have been at least a suspicion it wouldn't be received. So how confidently on the basis of that could you state with absolute certainty that ACL would make a profit once we moved to Sixfields?

Just as well they had the bail out as even with us still playing there and the Olmypics taking place the accounts wouldn't have looked too healthy without it!

The claim is that the Olympics hindered other events being held. Anyway. Let me ask you a question.

Were those accounts profitable?

 

[stupot07]

The claim is that the Olympics hindered other events being held. Anyway. Let me ask you a question.

Were those accounts profitable?

So in March 2014, near enough the end of the 2013/14 financial year ACL's shareholders wouldn't have had any financial information for they financial year, and would use the 2012/13 accounts (when ccfc was there, profiting from F&B's, escrow payments, etc plus olympics, coldplay, etc) to state they ACL are thriving and profitable without the football club?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

So in March 2014, near enough the end of the 2013/14 financial year ACL's shareholders wouldn't have had any financial information for they financial year, and would use the 2012/13 accounts (when ccfc was there, profiting from F&B's, escrow payments, etc plus olympics, coldplay, etc) to state they ACL are thriving and profitable without the football club?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Any politician will portray the situation in a positive light. ACL were being distressed by SISU, as judged in court, and in the face of this aggression, any politician will put a slant on it. In 2014, she's not lying to make reference to the last set of audited accounts if she believes it shows that ACL are standing up to SISU's aggression.

With regards the loan, agreed in January 13. The audited accounts would have been 11/12, which were good. The management accounts would have been those that latterly became engrossed in the 12/13, the performance of which is shown on the link. Again, decent. At the point in time of agreeing to the loan, the prognosis would have been decent. Which is exactly what the JR judge stated in his '40 year' summary. As such, nothing to moan about here either

 

[Grendel]

Any politician will portray the situation in a positive light. ACL were being distressed by SISU, as judged in court, and in the face of this aggression, any politician will put a slant on it. In 2014, she's not lying to make reference to the last set of audited accounts if she believes it shows that ACL are standing up to SISU's aggression.

With regards the loan, agreed in January 13. The audited accounts would have been 11/12, which were good. The management accounts would have been those that latterly became engrossed in the 12/13, the performance of which is shown on the link. Again, decent. At the point in time of agreeing to the loan, the prognosis would have been decent. Which is exactly what the JR judge stated in his '40 year' summary. As such, nothing to moan about here either

The reality is this company was liable to a loan, a substantial loan, which if it defaulted on would impact the taxpayer.

Frankly if she saw her duty to merely observe audited accounts annually it raises serious questions regarding her competence.

Given that key directors of the company are associated with the council it defies any credibility anyway this was the case.

If the argument is she believed it was profitable then again she has to face issues as to why she then conducted a sale significantly below the valuation in 2013.

Ultimately her position is indefensible either way.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

The reality is this company was liable to a loan, a substantial loan, which if it defaulted on would impact the taxpayer.

Frankly if she saw her duty to merely observe audited accounts annually it raises serious questions regarding her competence.

Given that key directors of the company are associated with the council it defies any credibility anyway this was the case.

If the argument is she believed it was profitable then again she has to face issues as to why she then conducted a sale significantly below the valuation in 2013.

Ultimately her position is indefensible either way.

No. You are using retrospective wisdom to judge the decision made with the benefit of hindsight. Her view at the time was shared by the JR judge, who agreed with her prognosis.

As someone who asserted that SISU were the only game in town, scoffed at the idea of a rugby team playing a significant part in the Ricoh's fortunes, saw an Average League One rent as being the stumbling block to all ills, and described Fisher at the best CEO we'd had in years - I'd have thought you in anyone's would have more sympathy for those who's view of the world looks foolish when events move on...

 

[skybluetony176]

The reality is this company was liable to a loan, a substantial loan, which if it defaulted on would impact the taxpayer.

Frankly if she saw her duty to merely observe audited accounts annually it raises serious questions regarding her competence.

Given that key directors of the company are associated with the council it defies any credibility anyway this was the case.

If the argument is she believed it was profitable then again she has to face issues as to why she then conducted a sale significantly below the valuation in 2013.

Ultimately her position is indefensible either way.

What happened to the grendull who didn't care about the tax payer when he thought SISU had a chance of getting the Ricoh at the expense of the taxpayer. All of a sudden it's all about the taxpayer. How times change.

 

[torchomatic]

Similar to Higgs. You and others were bleating about a poor charity and the little orphans that would lose out if we bought into the Arena, yet not a peep when London Wasps' Holdings bought it for a song.

Funny old world.

What happened to the grendull who didn't care about the tax payer when he thought SISU had a chance of getting the Ricoh at the expense of the taxpayer. All of a sudden it's all about the taxpayer. How times change.

 

[lordsummerisle]

What happened to the grendull who didn't care about the tax payer when he thought SISU had a chance of getting the Ricoh at the expense of the taxpayer. All of a sudden it's all about the taxpayer. How times change.

Changed the other way considerably too.

Not seeing the outrage at loss to local taxpayers and a local childrens charity that there was previously.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Similar to Higgs. You and others were bleating about a poor charity and the little orphans that would lose out if we bought into the Arena, yet not a peep when London Wasps' Holdings bought it for a song.

Funny old world.

Beat me to it!

Outrage, whether over this, or "clubs being ripped from their fans and community", seems to be very mutable.

 

[skybluetony176]

Similar to Higgs. You and others were bleating about a poor charity and the little orphans that would lose out if we bought into the Arena, yet not a peep when London Wasps' Holdings bought it for a song.

Funny old world.

Not at all like that. For it to be like that I'd have to be saying that Higgs got a great deal compared to what SISU offered. Only I haven't been saying that have I? Whereas your mate has gone from I don't care about the taxpayer to its all about the taxpayer. After months and months of telling everyone its a worthless white elephant you'd think he'd be applauding AL for getting as much as she did for a worthless white elephant. Yes, you're right. It is a funny old world.

 

[Moff]

you'd think he'd be applauding AL for getting as much as she did. Yes, you're right. It is a funny old world.

Its a funny old world that someone can put in print that Ann Lucas the stupid bitch should be applauded. Yes lets applaud her for selling the stadium for a snip, I bet all the people at the Council who are losing jobs and the local residents who are suffering cuts to their local services will be arranging the street parties, bunting and flag's now, all in honour of good old Ann.

 

[martcov]

Its a funny old world that someone can put in print that Ann Lucas the stupid bitch should be applauded. Yes lets applaud her for selling the stadium for a snip, I bet all the people at the Council who are losing jobs and the local residents who are suffering cuts to their local services will be arranging the street parties, bunting and flag's now, all in honour of good old Ann.

Yes, but you have taken that Part of Tony's post out of context. There is the argument, that so long as the loan repayments are met, she has off loaded a potential white elephant thus saving money for the poor taxpayers. It is too early to say that it was a snip, but under the circumstances there wasn't much room for manoeuvre. Whatever happens, it is not a question of a great achievement, but rather of a lesser disaster. If the repayments are at some time not met, then we have a problem, or rather the old problem comes back to haunt us.

 

[torchomatic]

My mate?! Jeez, Tony. As for the taxpayer thing, take it up with Grendel, he mentioned it not me. I was just pointing out the..erm..inconsistencies around these parts.

Not at all like that. For it to be like that I'd have to be saying that Higgs got a great deal compared to what SISU offered. Only I haven't been saying that have I? Whereas your mate has gone from I don't care about the taxpayer to its all about the taxpayer. After months and months of telling everyone its a worthless white elephant you'd think he'd be applauding AL for getting as much as she did for a worthless white elephant. Yes, you're right. It is a funny old world.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Beat me to it!

Outrage, whether over this, or "clubs being ripped from their fans and community", seems to be very mutable.

Selective 'community sport' outrage runs both ways. As a gent with a penchant for a spot of rugby, I lose count of the number of people who didn't 'give a fuck about egg-chasing' when I mentioned it as a Sixfields attendance alternative; who are now lecturing me on the issue. Brilliant!

 

[torchomatic]

Absolutely. She's given the whole shebang to a loss making company. Totally the opposite to what she said she would do. Then again, she's said a lot of things and meant/done the total opposite.

If the repayments are at some time not met, then we have a problem, or rather the old problem comes back to haunt us.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Absolutely. She's given the whole shebang to a loss making company. Totally the opposite to what she said she would do. Then again, she's said a lot of things and meant/done the total opposite.

Loss making? Now? I don't think so. Watch what happens with the Leinster game and Lucas will have every right to laugh in your face. You may not like it, but it's true

 

[lordsummerisle]

Selective 'community sport' outrage runs both ways. As a gent with a penchant for a spot of rugby, I lose count of the number of people who didn't 'give a fuck about egg-chasing' when I mentioned it as a Sixfields attendance alternative; who are now lecturing me on the issue. Brilliant!

To be fair, there's more "both ways" action on here than on x-hamster.

 

[torchomatic]

I didn't realise one swallow made a summer. Let's not look short term, eh MMM. I'm sure you're now the kind of guy to do that. Let's see what happens over the next few years, eh?

Losses of £3M, yes good crowds now, but once those freebies run out...still you, the Trust and Italia will keep coming on here and telling us how wonderful they are. Look forward to it.

Loss making? Now? I don't think so. Watch what happens with the Leinster game and Lucas will have every right to laugh in your face. You may not like it, but it's true

 

[lewys33]

Loss making? Now? I don't think so. Watch what happens with the Leinster game and Lucas will have every right to laugh in your face. You may not like it, but it's true

Yh the Irish are mad spenders torch. Soon the Ricoh seats will be real gold!

 

[torchomatic]

That'll be it then. The Land Of Milk And Honey Arena.

Yh the Irish are mad spenders torch. Soon the Ricoh seats will be real gold!

 

[Calista]

Its a funny old world that someone can put in print that Ann Lucas the stupid bitch should be applauded. Yes lets applaud her for selling the stadium for a snip, I bet all the people at the Council who are losing jobs and the local residents who are suffering cuts to their local services will be arranging the street parties, bunting and flag's now, all in honour of good old Ann.

Tim Fisher doesn’t seem to think it’s been sold for a snip. Here’s what David Conn’s Guardian article (23/12/14) says … “City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay.”

How does that fit in with the notion that CCC have given the stadium away? The idea, held by many on here, that SISU would have gladly have matched the Wasps deal if only they’d had the chance seems like pure fantasy to me.

In a nutshell, SISU have thought (or at least tried to argue) all along that ACL is worthless, whereas Wasps think it’s a money-spinner. Time will tell, but Wasps have already made far more imaginative use of the Ricoh than we ever did, and their investment looks like a good one to me. There is now top class sport in Coventry, and some of their games will be massive, bringing in international visitors and generating hotel and restaurant business. How the Council could have achieved a better outcome for the city I don’t know - it’s just sad for CCFC fans that we cut ourselves out of the picture.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I didn't realise one swallow made a summer. Let's not look short term, eh MMM. I'm sure you're now the kind of guy to do that. Let's see what happens over the next few years, eh?

Losses of £3M, yes good crowds now, but once those freebies run out...still you, the Trust and Italia will keep coming on here and telling us how wonderful they are. Look forward to it.

Given how quickly the much discussed brittle Coventry fan disappeared after the Ricoh return, Wasps are doing well. Again, I wouldn't go, but what they are doing for the Leinster game is brilliant - extra beer and catering, live music to get people there early, other games streamed to thy big screens, etc. It will be brilliant. You have the Six Nations, with Wasps players featuring, then the fervour surrounding the World Cup to help boost season ticket sales. Look at what Eastwood did at the RFU - he really is no mug.

Taking the line that Wasps will be, or are a failure will lead you to disappointment in my view. Doesn't mean I'm pro-Wasps; just giving you my opinion as to the practical situation

 

[fernandopartridge]

The council's former 'Assistant Director - City Centre and Development Services' has been appointed to the ACL board. Given his background I assume some form of additional regeneration is on its way.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

The council's former 'Assistant Director - City Centre and Development Services' has been appointed to the ACL board. Given his background I assume some form of additional regeneration is on its way.

Now, this I'm with you on. Sickening cronyism. Like the leader of Rugby Borough Council. Jacks in his job as a plumber to become an estate agent (no conflict of interest with planning there, eh?), and had now been given an £80K a year job leading the Local Enterprise Partnership. On what criteria exactly?!?

 

[Kingokings204]

Tim Fisher doesn’t seem to think it’s been sold for a snip. Here’s what David Conn’s Guardian article (23/12/14) says … “City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay.”

How does that fit in with the notion that CCC have given the stadium away? The idea, held by many on here, that SISU would have gladly have matched the Wasps deal if only they’d had the chance seems like pure fantasy to me.

In a nutshell, SISU have thought (or at least tried to argue) all along that ACL is worthless, whereas Wasps think it’s a money-spinner. Time will tell, but Wasps have already made far more imaginative use of the Ricoh than we ever did, and their investment looks like a good one to me. There is now top class sport in Coventry, and some of their games will be massive, bringing in international visitors and generating hotel and restaurant business. How the Council could have achieved a better outcome for the city I don’t know - it’s just sad for CCFC fans that we cut ourselves out of the picture.

Spot on, people keep going on about how ccfc wernt offered this deal by wasps well whether if that answer is a yes or a no the outcome is still the same. Sisu were not in a position or prepared to do that deal so it makes no difference.

Again with the love for wasps as I hate rugby and actual wasps they have made a seemingly good investment and top class sport in Coventry and now rugby in the West Midlands. They win and we lose. For now.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Now, this I'm with you on. Sickening cronyism. Like the leader of Rugby Borough Council. Jacks in his job as a plumber to become an estate agent (no conflict of interest with planning there, eh?), and had now been given an £80K a year job leading the Local Enterprise Partnership. On what criteria exactly?!?

Ah yes I read about that cowboy in Rugby, think it might have even made the Private Eye.

These LEPs are all full of local authority staff appointed without competition.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Ah yes I read about that cowboy in Rugby, think it might have even made the Private Eye.

These LEPs are all full of local authority staff appointed without competition.

Yes. He's the monkey who got pinged for driving without insurance, and then pinged again driving to the Police station to present documents - still without insurance....

 

[AndreasB]

Given how quickly the much discussed brittle Coventry fan disappeared after the Ricoh return, Wasps are doing well. Again, I wouldn't go, but what they are doing for the Leinster game is brilliant - extra beer and catering, live music to get people there early, other games streamed to thy big screens, etc. It will be brilliant. You have the Six Nations, with Wasps players featuring, then the fervour surrounding the World Cup to help boost season ticket sales. Look at what Eastwood did at the RFU - he really is no mug.

Taking the line that Wasps will be, or are a failure will lead you to disappointment in my view. Doesn't mean I'm pro-Wasps; just giving you my opinion as to the practical situation

Sickening isnt it? These Wasps games feel like a real event and that couldnt be more different to the atmosphere at CCFC games that feel like just going through the motions.

Do you think Wasps could/would buy us? Is that the only realistic strategy now? There clearly isnt a white knight out there.

 

[Moff]

Tim Fisher doesn’t seem to think it’s been sold for a snip. .

Its funny how people believe what Fisher says is true when it backs up their argument, but when it doesn't he is lying.

 

[Moff]

Yes, but you have taken that Part of Tony's post out of context. There is the argument, that so long as the loan repayments are met, she has off loaded a potential white elephant thus saving money for the poor taxpayers. It is too early to say that it was a snip, but under the circumstances there wasn't much room for manoeuvre. Whatever happens, it is not a question of a great achievement, but rather of a lesser disaster. If the repayments are at some time not met, then we have a problem, or rather the old problem comes back to haunt us.

Oh so when it suits it was a potential white elephant, but when Grendel said it was everyone slagged him off saying it cant have been as wasps wanted it. Jeez the hypocricy stinks!

 

[Moff]

Loss making? Now? I don't think so. Watch what happens with the Leinster game and Lucas will have every right to laugh in your face. You may not like it, but it's true

Bloody hell, I take you to be intelligent but don't let the excitement cloud your judgement. One game will make it all a huge success...I have heard it all now.

Lets see what the numbers are over the next few seasons before we get all confident about it shall we....I mean as you run a business I don't think you told all and sundry that you were a profit making success after your first sale/invoice did you?

 

[lordsummerisle]

That'll be it then. The Land Of Milk And Honey Arena.

If it was The Land of Milfs and Honeys Arena it would be packed out every night.

 

[lewys33]

Tim Fisher doesn’t seem to think it’s been sold for a snip. Here’s what David Conn’s Guardian article (23/12/14) says … “City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay.”

How does that fit in with the notion that CCC have given the stadium away? The idea, held by many on here, that SISU would have gladly have matched the Wasps deal if only they’d had the chance seems like pure fantasy to me.

Well £5.4 million = £2.7 million each (CCC and Higgs). Joy offered Higgs £2 million for their share did she not? Everyone said that wasn't enough (me included). So why does everyone think 0.7 million more from a Wycombe based rugby club is acceptable (I certainly don't)? Was all the pr costs, and losses worth the 0.7 million?