'I judge children by their names' (9 Viewers)

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

And they do don't they? Haven't they always said they feel an enormous amount of guilt?

I was very critical of them when it happened and was gobsmacked that people could just go off for a meal and leave children unattended and especially in a foreign country. I was one of the most vocal in my criticism.

I ask again though, do we keep criticising and reminding them about their fatal error for the rest of their existence?

Ian1779 · Feb 24, 2016

Otis said:
I ask again though, do we keep criticising and reminding them about their fatal error for the rest of their existence?

I see your point - personally I would not have picked them to be 'the face' of this campaign, however well meaning it's intention.

skybluetony176 · Feb 24, 2016

Astute said:
I'll tell you what is disgusting. Someone making a comment like this. You know that I never meant that. But just because I have a different idea of what is right from wrong on how to bring up children you make a comment like this.

I have 7 children. Eldest 30 youngest 6. I have never left any of mine unattended. I have never left any locked in a room so I can go drinking. Sitting in your own garden when your kids are in bed is not the same as what happened here.

We love the camping/caravan/motorhome holidays. We do it 12 months of the year. We go all over the country meeting up with friends. But if we can't take the kids to where we go we don't go. All of our friends are the same. We party in an awning with the kids inside the unit or someone stays with the kids.

It doesn't make it right that others do it. A child is for life not just when you fancy it. If you are not willing to dedicate yourself to bringing your children up you shouldn't have them.

That's the whole point of going on holiday for me since becoming a dad. Spending the time with my children that I don't get to spend in the real world because things like work get in the way.

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

Ian1779 said:
I see your point - personally I would not have picked them to be 'the face' of this campaign, however well meaning it's intention.

Fair point. Guess they just want to do something positive, but maybe they should take a more background role, rather than front the thing.

covcity4life · Feb 24, 2016

my dad left me in car once as he nipped into shop. not bloody end of world

that said in todays day and age i wouldnt do it!

Nick · Feb 24, 2016

covcity4life said:
my dad left me in car once as he nipped into shop. not bloody end of world

that said in todays day and age i wouldnt do it!

that's a bit different to leaving you to go out on the beers!

covcity4life · Feb 24, 2016

very true

.

stupot07 · Feb 24, 2016

Astute said:
I'll tell you what is disgusting. Someone making a comment like this. You know that I never meant that. But just because I have a different idea of what is right from wrong on how to bring up children you make a comment like this.

I have 7 children. Eldest 30 youngest 6. I have never left any of mine unattended. I have never left any locked in a room so I can go drinking. Sitting in your own garden when your kids are in bed is not the same as what happened here.

We love the camping/caravan/motorhome holidays. We do it 12 months of the year. We go all over the country meeting up with friends. But if we can't take the kids to where we go we don't go. All of our friends are the same. We party in an awning with the kids inside the unit or someone stays with the kids.

It doesn't make it right that others do it. A child is for life not just when you fancy it. If you are not willing to dedicate yourself to bringing your children up you shouldn't have them.

I would say the mccanns are little different to this (bar the perverting the course of justice):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...led-over-home-alone-daughters-fire-death.html

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Nick · Feb 24, 2016

stupot07 said:
I would say the mccanns are little different to this (bar the perverting the course of justice):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...led-over-home-alone-daughters-fire-death.html

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

That's the thing isn't it. If they were from Hillfields and weren't doctors it would have been a different situation entirely. If it was Shanice from Wood End who left her kids in the hotel while she went out for a beer in Ibiza, would it be different?

I can't understand it at all, if you don't want your kids with you on holiday when you go for a meal then leave them at home with their grandparents or something. The whole point of a holiday is for the family.

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

I don't think it's quite that straightforward, Nick.

Had Madeleine McCann been found dead the next day, or two days later, the vilification would have been so much worse and they would surely have been charged.

This was a missing child though and all the focus was on finding the girl. It was all about Maddy. As the weeks passed it was quite clear that the McCann's were already serving a life sentence for what they did. To this day they must wake up hating themselves over what happened and it was clear that Kate McCann aged really quickly as the weeks and months wore on. She almost seemed like a shell of a human being at times.

I'm not defending them here, I'm just saying how it was perceived. I think the not charging them was out of the fact that it was like serving a life sentence anyway, having to live with their stupidity and arrogance of what they did that night.

I think the circumstance is different. Had Maddy died in a fire, the McCann's would have been charged as this woman was. No doubt about it.

The police say that usually if someone in an incident such as this isn't found with a couple of days they are dead and I think most of us believed that to most probably be true.

This rare kidnapping and the media circus that followed had a big bearing on events too I believe.

Nick · Feb 24, 2016

Otis said:
I don't think it's quite that straightforward, Nick.

Had Madeleine McCann been found dead the next day, or two days later, the vilification would have been so much worse and they would surely have been charged.

This was a missing child though and all the focus was on finding the girl. It was all about Maddy. As the weeks passed it was quite clear that the McCann's were already serving a life sentence for what they did. To this day they must wake up hating themselves over what happened and it was clear that Kate McCann aged really quickly as the weeks and months wore on. She almost seemed like a shell of a human being at times.

I'm not defending them here, I'm just saying how it was perceived. I think the not charging them was out of the fact that it was like serving a life sentence anyway, having to live with their stupidity and arrogance of what they did that night.

I think the circumstance is different. Had Maddy died in a fire, the McCann's would have been charged as this woman was. No doubt about it.

The police say that usually if someone in an incident such as this isn't found with a couple of days they are dead and I think most of us believed that to most probably be true.

This rare kidnapping and the media circus that followed had a big bearing on events too I believe.

But why is the punishment any different for the woman who's kid died in a fire and the McCanns? I am sure they both loved their children just as much. I bet the woman who's child died in a fire feels just as bad every day about what happened, what she could have done different etc.

I think it is perceived that because they were doctors, educated etc they obviously loved their children more. If it was a couple from wood end out on the cider, I am pretty sure they would feel guilty every day for the rest of their lives and hurt and be punished. They would probably do it from a cell though.

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

Like I said, Nick, this woman's kid died in a fire, Madeleine McCann was kidnapped. It was a find her mission, not the recovery of the charred remains of a child. No body and a European search to try and find a missing girl.

One was a death, the other a hunt for a missing child. Big, big difference. Madeleine McCann's body has never been found. She could possibly still be alive.

And after months and months of anguish and agony I guess the authorities thought they had suffered enough. We saw their punishment every day on TV for months on end.

Nick · Feb 24, 2016

Otis said:
Like I said, Nick, this woman's kid died in a fire, Madeleine McCann was kidnapped. It was a find her mission, not the recovery of the charred remains of a child. No body and a European search to try and find a missing girl.

One was a death, the other a hunt for a missing child. Big, big difference. Madeleine McCann's body has never been found. She could possibly still be alive.

And after months and months of anguish and agony I guess the authorities thought they had suffered enough. We saw their punishment every day on TV for months on end.

But just because the other child had died it doesn't mean their parents aren't punished by guilt / what if's every day too? I know it would be different because one wasn't in the media, one has no closure but it doesn't mean that it is only the McCanns are suffering and feeling guilty because of it.

Just because we saw their punishment on TV, it doesn't mean that it wasn't happening to others in the same situation. Them being punished by guilt etc shouldn't mean they should be let off and not pulled up on everything else.

Have a look at this guy - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ged-NEGLECT-spend-year-trying-clear-name.html

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-spared-jail-judge-says-suffered-enough.html

Have a look at this guy. Don't think he is middle class or a doctor.

Let off by the judge for killing a child because he felt the defendant had suffered enough.

Been a number of similar scenarios.

Nick · Feb 24, 2016

Otis said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-spared-jail-judge-says-suffered-enough.html

Have a look at this guy. Don't think he is middle class or a doctor.

Let off by the judge for killing a child because he felt the defendant had suffered enough.

Been a number of similar scenarios.

Absolutely shocking that is, he was driving on the wrong side of the road! Only a 3 year driving ban too.

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

Driving the wrong way on a road, with neither of his sons wearing seat belts. One died, another with life changing injuries.

Sent from my Hudl 2 using Tapatalk

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-freed-judge--saying-SHE-suffered-enough.html

Another one here. Not a death, but the battering of a baby. Judge said defendant had suffered enough.

She worked in retail I think, so again, not middle class.

Sent from my Hudl 2 using Tapatalk

andrew.roberts · Feb 24, 2016

How about this for class prejudice. It´s an extract from reader´s letter in today´s edition of the Majorca Daily Bulletin

"Tourists will create more rubbish but the hordes of tourists who come here on these all-inclusive holidays are the type of people who are the worst litter louts in England. Besides, the main rubbish depot here is so efficient it is now supposed to be a sightseeing wonder!
The real problem is the type of person who comes here on these Butlin-type holidays where everything is paid for in England. If most of all-inclusive holidays were banned, the shops, bars and restaurants would all benefit and so would the islanders but they do not seem to understand this and until they do, there is no point in banging our heads against a brick wall.
Shiela Peczenik "

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

All sounds fair enough!

Nick · Feb 24, 2016

Otis said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-freed-judge--saying-SHE-suffered-enough.html

Another one here. Not a death, but the battering of a baby. Judge said defendant had suffered enough.

She worked in retail I think, so again, not middle class.

Sent from my Hudl 2 using Tapatalk

The other point is that they were even up in front of a judge in the first place...

If they roll out the suffered enough line, they should make it a law so it is the same for everybody or not at all.

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

Nick said:
The other point is that they were even up in front of a judge in the first place...

If they roll out the suffered enough line, they should make it a law so it is the same for everybody or not at all.

Yes, agree. I do think though that the McCann's story is not about class but about the unusual situation of a missing child and that all resources were dedicated to finding their little girl, with little thought of anything else.

Different outcome, they may well have been charged. I don't think it has anything to do with class, this one.

Grendel · Feb 24, 2016

Otis said:
Yes, agree. I do think though that the McCann's story is not about class but about the unusual situation of a missing child and that all resources were dedicated to finding their little girl, with little thought of anything else.

Different outcome, they may well have been charged. I don't think it has anything to do with class, this one.

It is all about class and manipulation.

Have you heard of Ben Needham? You may have but many won't.

I have no sympathy with them actually. When my children were young we toured all over Europe every year for 3 weeks. Drove miles, stayed in many countries. Europe is far more child centric. We always took them with us and if they were tired then we stayed in. This wasn't a mistake it was negligent behaviour. Have I left a child unattended for a minute - yes? I haven't and wouldn't have left them alone. At work functions we used to take them and I paid a private sitter to look after them and even then would check in now and again.

They were selfish and didn't want them under their feet while enjoying their adult company.

The fund they created paid their wages while they searched. Who else would have that luxury? Who could employ the ex BBC journalist Clarence Mitchell to fund the campaign? They managed to get special branch involved - they engaged Prime Minister support. It's extraordinary really.

So actually for once I find little to argue with the normally absurd Katie Hopkins.

I wouldn't take any advice on child care from the mccanns.

Oh and Ben Needham - googled him yet?

Nick · Feb 24, 2016

Grendel said:
It is all about class and manipulation.

Have you heard of Ben Needham? You may have but many won't.

I have no sympathy with them actually. When my children were young we toured all over Europe every year for 3 weeks. Drove miles, stayed in many countries. Europe is far more child centric. We always took them with us and if they were tired then we stayed in. This wasn't a mistake it was negligent behaviour. Have I left a child unattended for a minute - yes? I haven't and wouldn't have left them alone. At work functions we used to take them and I paid a private sitter to look after them and even then would check in now and again.

They were selfish and didn't want them under their feet while enjoying their adult company.

The fund they created paid their wages while they searched. Who else would have that luxury? Who could employ the ex BBC journalist Clarence Mitchell to fund the campaign? They managed to get special branch involved - they engaged Prime Minister support. It's extraordinary really.

So actually for once I find little to argue with the normally absurd Katie Hopkins.

I wouldn't take any advice on child care from the mccanns.

Oh and Ben Needham - googled him yet?

it was a while ago, but didn't his parents get arrested for it / questioned etc?

Grendel · Feb 24, 2016

Nick said:
it was a while ago, but didn't his parents get arrested for it / questioned etc?

No more than the Mccanns but the real point is that it was a similar case that never got the focus or attention from the media and the establishment. They weren't negligent - it was a freak abduction. Yet when Mr McCann stuck out his Glaswegian jaw and pronounced "a British citizen is missing" it was as if it was only one person who mattered regardless of the fact his selfishness was solely responsible for the ultimate outcome.

I doubt the Needhams got their salary paid while they looked for their child.

eastwoodsdustman · Feb 24, 2016

They thought they'd found him a couple of years ago but the DNA test didn't match. They think he was taken by Gypsies who apparently have a thing for blond haired kids?

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

Grendel said:
It is all about class and manipulation.

Have you heard of Ben Needham? You may have but many won't.

I have no sympathy with them actually. When my children were young we toured all over Europe every year for 3 weeks. Drove miles, stayed in many countries. Europe is far more child centric. We always took them with us and if they were tired then we stayed in. This wasn't a mistake it was negligent behaviour. Have I left a child unattended for a minute - yes? I haven't and wouldn't have left them alone. At work functions we used to take them and I paid a private sitter to look after them and even then would check in now and again.

They were selfish and didn't want them under their feet while enjoying their adult company.

The fund they created paid their wages while they searched. Who else would have that luxury? Who could employ the ex BBC journalist Clarence Mitchell to fund the campaign? They managed to get special branch involved - they engaged Prime Minister support. It's extraordinary really.

So actually for once I find little to argue with the normally absurd Katie Hopkins.

I wouldn't take any advice on child care from the mccanns.

Oh and Ben Needham - googled him yet?

I remember the Needham case well. I don't need to Google him thanks.

I disagree with you though. Not on the help and funding etc., but that's not what we are talking about here. That is a complete sidetrack. Not like you, Grendel, to sidetrack!

The argument is as to whether they should have been charged and would they have been charged had they not been middle class.

From what I remember of the Ben Needham case is that it was all over the papers and the media for a long time. We of course then didn't have the media network and social media network we had in 2007.

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

We all know how you love an argument and we all know how you don't back down, so let's just agree to disagree.

The McCann's got loads of help for sure and that has probably got a lot to do with class, but not being charged because they are middle class is something I just don't accept.

Not going to argue with you, because I know it will run to 20 pages plus.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.

I honestly believe that had Madeleine been found dead with a few days, they would have been charged with neglect. It was the length of the case that diluted everything and focused the attention on how she was taken and why and where.

The McCann's very much became suspects in this case. Their class didn't help them there much did it. Didn't stop them being suspected and questioned and having the finger pointing at them.

Now you have entered the fray I think it best for me to leave it with saying my piece and walking away.

You just won't let it lie. I know you too well.

Ian1779 · Feb 24, 2016

I think she did it*

*allegedly of course - absolutely no proof whatsoever.

(and if I'm not allowed to say that then please accept my apologies and delete)

skybluetony176 · Feb 24, 2016

Otis said:
We all know how you love an argument and we all know how you don't back down, so let's just agree to disagree.

The McCann's got loads of help for sure and that has probably got a lot to do with class, but not being charged because they are middle class is something I just don't accept.

Not going to argue with you, because I know it will run to 20 pages plus.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.

I honestly believe that had Madeleine been found dead with a few days, they would have been charged with neglect. It was the length of the case that diluted everything and focused the attention on how she was taken and why and where.

The McCann's very much became suspects in this case. Their class didn't help them there much did it. Didn't stop them being suspected and questioned and having the finger pointing at them.

Now you have entered the fray I think it best for me to leave it with saying my piece and walking away.

You just won't let it lie. I know you too well.

Didn't the Portuguese detective handling the case write a book after he retired accusing them of killing her and hiding the body with the abduction being made up to cover their tracks? Something they deny and counter claimed that the detective saw a high profile case just before his retirement and staged his investigation with writing a book about it in mind? It certainly seemed like it was a botched investigation when the British police got involved. IIRC a lot of basics had been missed that could have had a profound effect on the investigation at the time and led directly to missed opportunities that will never be recovered.

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

I can comprehend the notion of an accident in which Madeleine died and then the parents covered up, but I just can't get my head round the parents killing her.

Astute · Feb 24, 2016

Otis said:
We all know how you love an argument and we all know how you don't back down, so let's just agree to disagree.

The McCann's got loads of help for sure and that has probably got a lot to do with class, but not being charged because they are middle class is something I just don't accept.

Not going to argue with you, because I know it will run to 20 pages plus.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.

I honestly believe that had Madeleine been found dead with a few days, they would have been charged with neglect. It was the length of the case that diluted everything and focused the attention on how she was taken and why and where.

The McCann's very much became suspects in this case. Their class didn't help them there much did it. Didn't stop them being suspected and questioned and having the finger pointing at them.

Now you have entered the fray I think it best for me to leave it with saying my piece and walking away.

You just won't let it lie. I know you too well.

So what you are saying is that if they lived on a council estate and had never worked or did manual work like the most of us the PM and similar would have still got involved and they wouldn't have been treated differently in any way?

I am fully with Grendel on this. And I think it is the only time I have agreed with that spotlight whore with what she said on the subject.

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

Astute said:
So what you are saying is that if they lived on a council estate and had never worked or did manual work like the most of us the PM and similar would have still got involved and they wouldn't have been treated differently in any way?

I am fully with Grendel on this. And I think it is the only time I have agreed with that spotlight whore with what she said on the subject.

Nope. Come on, Astute. Please read what I am saying.

I am not talking about coverage, help, media interest, government or anything of such ilk. Nothing to do with searches, help or anything like that at all.

I am only, and I repeat, only talking in terms of them being treated the same in regard to being CHARGED and nothing else.

If Maddy's body had been found within a couple of days they would have been charged with neglect.

It is ONLY that part where I am saying class didn't come into it.

Just that. To my mind class was not an issue at all in regard to them not being charged.

oakey · Feb 24, 2016

I am sure if there was any evidence that they had committed any crime under Portuguese law they definitely would have been charged, no question.
So we can assume there is no evidence of a crime.
They have already been found guilty in the court of public opinion, however.

Otis · Feb 24, 2016

Unfortunately the Portuguese police were seemingly carrying out their duties like the Keystone Kops.

oakey · Feb 24, 2016

Can we recall, just for the record, that the McCanns were dining 50 metres from their room in the closed holiday resort complex and it was considered safe, secure and normal for children to be in bed close by. Now we all know that was not so, but the context is important for balance. It is often printed that they had, "gone out to dinner" or "out drinking" giving the impression they were far away. Not so. They were foolish, probably negligent, but have paid a heavy price. As for the publicity they sought and attention they craved. Well, that seems consistent with fear, panic and gut-wrenching remorse.

'I judge children by their names' (9 Viewers)

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