Lucy Letby (2 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Have a read of this and let us know what you think.

Stats about the letby case

www.triedbystats.com

I saw this, I’ve still not seen anything conclusive and as I understand it there’s more to it than just the statistical argument. I’m not fixed either way TBH. But an article about staff leaving id want to see more than “some woman says people will leave”

 

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[wingy]

I saw this, I’ve still not seen anything conclusive and as I understand it there’s more to it than just the statistical argument. I’m not fixed either way TBH. But an article about staff leaving id want to see more than “some woman says people will leave”

As I put above I think there's a question to be answered over her defense team really, they didn't put up anyone to counter as I recall?

 

[MalcSB]

I saw this, I’ve still not seen anything conclusive and as I understand it there’s more to it than just the statistical argument. I’m not fixed either way TBH. But an article about staff leaving id want to see more than “some woman says people will leave”

I think the thing is that a guilty verdict is supposed to be beyond reasonable doubt, and I don’t think this is. The defence seem to have done a pretty poor job, the prosecution experts are going to be pretty dogmatic about things when not challenged by peers. I do think that being able to pin deaths on a murderer was pretty convenient for the Trust and I am cynical enough, or experienced enough, to think it entirely possible that Letby is a scapegoat.

I agree with your last sentence. I can’t remember where I saw it but there is some suggestion that cctv is being installed in some units - to protect the staff. That may be hearsay but is quite possible.

 

[shmmeee]

I think the thing is that a guilty verdict is supposed to be beyond reasonable doubt, and I don’t think this is. The defence seem to have done a pretty poor job, the prosecution experts are going to be pretty dogmatic about things when not challenged by peers. I do think that being able to pin deaths on a murderer was pretty convenient for the Trust and I am cynical enough, or experienced enough, to think it entirely possible that Letby is a scapegoat.

I agree with your last sentence. I can’t remember where I saw it but there is some suggestion that cctv is being installed in some units - to protect the staff. That may be hearsay but is quite possible.

Frankly I’m increasingly of the belief all staff who work with the public should have body cams for everyone’s safety. Which is kinda sad.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Frankly I’m increasingly of the belief all staff who work with the public should have body cams for everyone’s safety. Which is kinda sad.

Yeah
Beyond reasonable doubt doesn’t mean there’s no doubt of course

 

[wingy]

I think this needs urgent, not the usual turgid response to events like this, I'm suspecting corporate cover up,of what though?

 

[Grendel]

I think this needs urgent, not the usual turgid response to events like this, I'm suspecting corporate cover up,of what though?

There cannot be any consideration of a retrial unless new evidence is found. There is no new evidence that has been presented.

 

[wingy]

There cannot be any consideration of a retrial unless new evidence is found. There is no new evidence that has been presented.

I guess there will be eventually, hopefully soon, of course that's just my curious self,an investigation of the stats is paramount here and how they're presented with certainty but are anything but as we all know?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The answers to this should lie in the medical and physical evidence, not statistics. What refutation is there against the claim she injected air and insulin into babies?

 

[Terry_dactyl]

The answers to this should lie in the medical and physical evidence, not statistics. What refutation is there against the claim she injected air and insulin into babies?

I’d have to check again but wasn’t part of the evidence that when babies are injected with air they turn a specific colour. This was presented by the prosecution.
After the case was over the Dr who wrote the paper that that the prosecution used, said the babies had not turned the specific colour. For some reason the defence did not call her.
Or something like this.

 

[wingy]

I’d have to check again but wasn’t part of the evidence that when babies are injected with air they turn a specific colour. This was presented by the prosecution.
After the case was over the Dr who wrote the paper that that the prosecution used, said the babies had not turned the specific colour. For some reason the defence did not call her.
Or something like this.

Then the note's they found in her dwelling allegedly suggesting guilt in the prosecutions eyes but questioning you'd assume in the defense case?

 

[Terry_dactyl]

Then the note's they found in her dwelling allegedly suggesting guilt in the prosecutions eyes but questioning you'd assume in the defense case?

I can’t remember his name but even before the case that TV criminologist bloke, discounted that as evidence. Saying it was more likely the ramblings of someone in huge distress…she was aware of the accusations when she wrote it…rather than a confession.

 

[dutchman]

This is TBF and entire article based around “Sharon from work said…”

I couldn't find a 'Sharon' but I managed a Michele and an Alison:

Lucy Letby’s hospital unit was ‘accident waiting to happen’

Countess of Chester employees wrote to NHS Trust warning of their ‘grave concerns’ about unsatisfactory staffing levels on neonatal unit

www.telegraph.co.uk

Michele Worden, an ANNP at the unit who had worked in the NHS for 28 years, was made redundant in 2007 after refusing to be downgraded amid ongoing cost-cutting and restructuring at the unit.

She told The Telegraph: “The hospital said they would no longer need ANNPs because they would not be caring for really sick babies. At the time I told management that was ludicrous but it fell on deaf ears.

“I told them that you cannot run a neonatal intensive care unit with no senior nursing staff. This is an accident waiting to happen, but they were not interested.”

“During my final year at the Countess of Chester hospital I was appalled to observe the decimation of the nursing and midwifery service,” she wrote in the newspaper.

“The decision to dramatically increase the ratio of unqualified to qualified has forced those unqualified staff into performing or rather attempting to perform tasks beyond their capabilities

“The repercussions of all of this, for the depleted numbers of qualified staff and ultimately for their patients, is profoundly worrying.”

The situation had not improved by 2015, and in December of that year, Dr Alison Timmis, a paediatrician emailed Tony Chambers, the hospital’s chief executive, reporting that staff were in tears because they were being forced to look after more babies than they could safely accommodate.

“They get upset as they know that the care they are providing falls below their high standards,” she said, warning nurses were “chronically overworked” and felt “no one is listening”.

“At several points we ran out of vital equipment such as incubators,” she added. “This is not an exceptionally busy week. This is now our normal working pattern and it is not safe.

“Things are stretched thinner and thinner and at breaking point. When things snap, the casualties will either be children’s lives or the mental and physical health of our staff.”

 

[MalcSB]

The answers to this should lie in the medical and physical evidence, not statistics. What refutation is there against the claim she injected air and insulin into babies?

The insulin test used should not have been used to test for exogenous insulin. The indication for air injection was disputed after the trial by the (I think Canadian) doctor who had first published a paper about physical signs associated with it.

 

[Terry_dactyl]

‘I am evil I did this’: Lucy Letby’s so-called confessions were written on advice of counsellors

Prosecutors used densely written Post-its to build case against nurse, but she was told to write down her feelings to cope with extreme stress, sources say

www.theguardian.com

 

[MalcSB]

Then the note's they found in her dwelling allegedly suggesting guilt in the prosecutions eyes but questioning you'd assume in the defense case?

‘I am evil I did this’: Lucy Letby’s so-called confessions were written on advice of counsellors

Prosecutors used densely written Post-its to build case against nurse, but she was told to write down her feelings to cope with extreme stress, sources say

www.theguardian.com

 

[lordsummerisle]

A superbug, doctor shortages and a neonatal unit ‘out of its depth’: failures at Lucy Letby hospital revealed

As the Thirwall hearings approach, the Guardian has discovered concerns were repeatedly raised about alarming shortcomings at Countess of Chester

www.theguardian.com

 

[MalcSB]

A superbug, doctor shortages and a neonatal unit ‘out of its depth’: failures at Lucy Letby hospital revealed

As the Thirwall hearings approach, the Guardian has discovered concerns were repeatedly raised about alarming shortcomings at Countess of Chester

www.theguardian.com

Letby is such a handy scapegoat.

 

[Ian1779]

Letby is such a handy scapegoat.

Whether she is or isn’t - is there actual real evidence to suggest she didn’t commit those murders?

 

[JAM See]

Whether she is or isn’t - is there actual real evidence to suggest she didn’t commit those murders?

What an odd question.

 

[wingy]

Whether she is or isn’t - is there actual real evidence to suggest she didn’t commit those murders?

Yeah as the case is reliant on experts interpretation of stats largely the swinging vote!

 

[rob9872]

An innocent person incarcerated for life or a potential multiple murderer let on the loose.

Whist I'm sure her mmo would mean she's unlikely to be in a position to able to offend in a similar way again, both scenarios unsavoury and I'm genuinely undecided on which I think is worse.

If pushed I think I'd lean towards keeping her locked up for the reason that one disrupted life might give the many victims families some peace, but without being appraised of all the facts, the options are a little unpalatable.

 

[David O'Day]

An innocent person incarcerated for life or a potential multiple murderer let on the loose.

Whist I'm sure her mmo would mean she's unlikely to be in a position to able to offend in a similar way again, both scenarios unsavoury and I'm genuinely undecided on which I think is worse.

If pushed I think I'd lean towards keeping her locked up for the reason that one disrupted life might give the many victims families some peace, but without being appraised of all the facts, the options are a little unpalatable.

So you are okay if the wrong person if there was a person at all is in prison?

Also how does not actually knowing what happened help the familes?

 

[David O'Day]

Whether she is or isn’t - is there actual real evidence to suggest she didn’t commit those murders?

That's not how trials work, you have to prove someone is guilty and at the moment the evidence for that is getting shakier by the day it seems.

 

[rob9872]

So you are okay if the wrong person if there was a person at all is in prison?

Also how does not actually knowing what happened help the familes?

I'm ok with somebody being in if that helps the families closure. It's not like it's the wrong person it's either her or medical failure.

 

[Skybluekyle]

An innocent person incarcerated for life or a potential multiple murderer let on the loose.

Whist I'm sure her mmo would mean she's unlikely to be in a position to able to offend in a similar way again, both scenarios unsavoury and I'm genuinely undecided on which I think is worse.

If pushed I think I'd lean towards keeping her locked up for the reason that one disrupted life might give the many victims families some peace, but without being appraised of all the facts, the options are a little unpalatable.

The justice system is predicated on the premise that it is better for a guilty person to walk free than an innocent person to be found guilty, therefore the starting point probably is the latter is better than the former.

With that being said, it is incredibly tough. I hope any concerns are put to rest through a thorough review of the case, and Letby is indeed the mass murderer she has been found guilty of.

 

[Ian1779]

What an odd question.

It’s not meant to be an odd question, there seems to be a quell of voices suggesting she is innocent, and I don’t know enough about the case - hence me just asking.
If she is guilty, then why are people questioning it, and if she might not be then how has this happened?

 

[MalcSB]

An innocent person incarcerated for life or a potential multiple murderer let on the loose.

Whist I'm sure her mmo would mean she's unlikely to be in a position to able to offend in a similar way again, both scenarios unsavoury and I'm genuinely undecided on which I think is worse.

If pushed I think I'd lean towards keeping her locked up for the reason that one disrupted life might give the many victims families some peace, but without being appraised of all the facts, the options are a little unpalatable.

That is an absolutely disgusting attitude to have.

Given the conditions on the unit at the time, it may be that corporate manslaughter charges would be the way to give victims dailies some peace. I can’t imagine all the debate and doubt being cast is giving them any peace at all.

 

[MalcSB]

Whether she is or isn’t - is there actual real evidence to suggest she didn’t commit those murders?

It can be very difficult to prove that you didn’t do something. The prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone is guilt. There seems to be plenty of doubt being raised about the evidence presented to the jury as being the only cause of the babies deaths as well as plenty of potential causative factors other than foul play.

 

[MalcSB]

I'm ok with somebody being in if that helps the families closure. It's not like it's the wrong person it's either her or medical failure.

For fucks sake, how on earth can you say that. It is entirely possible that she actually had nothing to do with the babies deaths but was trying to provide care in an inadequately staffed unit contaminated by sewage and all the rest. If it was medical failure, it was t necessarily her failure.

 

[rob9872]

That is an absolutely disgusting attitude to have.

Given the conditions on the unit at the time, it may be that corporate manslaughter charges would be the way to give victims dailies some peace. I can’t imagine all the debate and doubt being cast is giving them any peace at all.

Really? Only if you're 100% she didn't do it. I know it's innocent until proven and not the other way around, but unless there is enough to clear her, then I'll save the expertise to the investigators over the SBT sleuths.

 

[MalcSB]

Really? Only if you're 100% she didn't do it. I know it's innocent until proven and not the other way around, but unless there is enough to clear her, then I'll save the expertise to the investigators over the SBT sleuths.

It’s not SBT sleuths you moron, it’s a load of professionals from lots of scientific and statistical disciplines.
There only has to be some doubt she did it for a guilty verdict to be unsafe.

 

[Grendel]

That's not how trials work, you have to prove someone is guilty and at the moment the evidence for that is getting shakier by the day it seems.

No the jury decide on the evidence presented if there is reasonable doubt or not.

They concluded a guilty verdict placed on the evidence

For a retrial new evidence has to be presented

 

[rob9872]

It’s not SBT sleuths you moron, it’s a load of professionals from lots of scientific and statistical disciplines.
There only has to be some doubt she did it for a guilty verdict to be unsafe.

Keep up with calling names, it really adds credit to your debate

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It can be very difficult to prove that you didn’t do something. The prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone is guilt. There seems to be plenty of doubt being raised about the evidence presented to the jury as being the only cause of the babies deaths as well as plenty of potential causative factors other than foul play.

Bang on
The only thing I’d add is it’s not beyond doubt but beyond reasonable doubt