Grendel
Well-Known Member
France have really been the one nation that has put its own national values before the religious doctrine and the consequences have been severe - I don’t see many others following that line
I’m not sure public opinion or support is on the decline at all, quite the opposite. It’s why I try not to talk about it as it is exhausting swimming agaInst the tide, like I say need to just get in with it
Agreed, all religion has a barbaric history and many countries still are in that state. I would like to think that in THIS country, we've grown up a bit and can accept diverse views as part of a reasonable debate. Surely people are educated enough and sensible enough to not take scriptures as literal translations of modern life.I have no problem with that statement.
But when you start to demonize a whole section of society because of it - well history tells us where that sort of thing ends.
As for Muslims slaughtering Hindus. You can find all sorts of examples of that sort of wholesale slaughter through history with all sorts of people's as both perpetrator and victims. Is not as if we in the West are squeaky clean.
Let's hope so......Christianity went through its medieval conquering stage with coercion and brutality, the next 100 years may well see Islam do the same. At some point people will get fed up with living like it and rise up until the next thing and so on and so on
Ps.. Apologies if I offended anybody but I say what I feel, sometimes don't get my point over in the best way possible but it's real, it's how I feel.
Islam doesn't sit right with my values, I don't look at the treatment of women, children and marginalised groups within the religion and see it as a positive, Infact it annoys me immensely..
I cannot stick up for it.
It goes against modern values
Maybe they should try reformation, much like what Christianity went through hundreds of years ago...
Maybe that's where the more positive and less extreme future lies for that religion
I really should know better than to get involved in this thread...
But i think the main issue is, whenever there is an act of terror which appears to have originated from within the Muslim (world) community, there appears to be very little condemnation from within the powers-that-be (such as they are) within the Muslim religion.
Take for example the beheading and subsequent recent issues in France... i stand to be corrected, but i haven't seen many examples of community leaders from across the Muslim world (either in France or elsewhere) condemning the actions. You could say "well they aren't responsible for every extremist nutter...."
But it would go a long way to dispelling the opinion which seems to be widely held, that significant sections of the Muslim world, at best understand why these acts were carried out, or at worst, believe they are justified.
But also, all attacks are widely condemned by prominent Muslim figures. The recent attacks in France being another example (feel free to Google!).
I really should know better than to get involved in this thread...
But i think the main issue is, whenever there is an act of terror which appears to have originated from within the Muslim (world) community, there appears to be very little condemnation from within the powers-that-be (such as they are) within the Muslim religion.
Take for example the beheading and subsequent recent issues in France... i stand to be corrected, but i haven't seen many examples of community leaders from across the Muslim world (either in France or elsewhere) condemning the actions. You could say "well they aren't responsible for every extremist nutter...."
But it would go a long way to dispelling the opinion which seems to be widely held, that significant sections of the Muslim world, at best understand why these acts were carried out, or at worst, believe they are justified.
Exactly. There's plenty of condemnation.Someone earlier (possibly in this thread) linked to show condemnation by the MCB for all the terrorist atrocities. It just doesn't get much exposure.
Ps.. Apologies if I offended anybody but I say what I feel, sometimes don't get my point over in the best way possible but it's real, it's how I feel.
Islam doesn't sit right with my values, I don't look at the treatment of women, children and marginalised groups within the religion and see it as a positive, Infact it annoys me immensely..
I cannot stick up for it.
It goes against modern values
Maybe they should try reformation, much like what Christianity went through hundreds of years ago...
Maybe that's where the more positive and less extreme future lies for that religion
It will. Just cranks up bit by bit, people get desensitised, people who are concerned get shamed and pigeon holed. I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s wasted stress. Can’t do anything. 40 years I’ll be gone, my kids will have been primed by the education system and media to take it on the chin.
Things go in cycles don’t they? Christianity went through its medieval conquering stage with coercion and brutality, the next 100 years may well see Islam do the same. At some point people will get fed up with living like it and rise up until the next thing and so on and so on
No, because they're judging a specific act, rather than pre-judging your wife based on her cultural heritage.So does that make them Islamophobic?
Yes correct, so I would say its perfectly normal to question Islam when extreme moderates who were moving away from it are very wary of its return. What you call Islamophobia, just be lumping them all in together, would just be straight up racism in my eyes.No, because they're judging a specific act, rather than pre-judging your wife based on her cultural heritage.
Oh, and you've acknowledged difference, rather than lumping all Muslims in together.
Race doesn't enter into my thinking, the religion is my sole focus of the discussionYes correct, so I would say its perfectly normal to question Islam when extreme moderates who were moving away from it are very wary of its return. What you call Islamophobia, just be lumping them all in together, would just be straight up racism in my eyes.
I don't think some in the thread have come off great with their wording but I get where they are coming from and sincerely hope they are not just straight up racist.
We need to have (not us personally, people in general) conversations about the way forward for Islam within the west without just using lazy, 'yeh but Christianity, Hindus etc...' type arguments.
Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
Fair enough, and I think people need to ask questions, have discussions, as its clearly a major problem. While bearing in mind there are moderates out there who get caught in the cross fire of all this bullshit. Normal people just living their lives.Race doesn't enter into my thinking, the religion is my sole focus of the discussion
The Greek Orthodox priest shooting took a turn .
.Lyon shooting: Suspect admits attacking priest 'over affair'
It was initially feared that the wounding of an Orthodox cleric in Lyon was a terror attack.www.bbc.com
you may. We all mayI was christened in a Greek-Orthodox church. The hypocrisy of the many that go there and the power and influence it has over people is concerning. My Yia Yia (Gran to you) was convinced I was going to burn in hell and prayed for me every night. My crime, turning my back on religion.
you may. We all may
'God told me to invade Iraq', Bush told advisers
US president George Bush has said that he was instructed by God to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new BBC series…www.irishtimes.com
Does this mean a million people murdered in Iraq was a Christian attack on Muslims?
So let's punish people responsible for the crimes then. Not everybody in the UK or US is a danger because millions of people were killed in our name. Not every Muslim is a danger when terrorists kill in their name.No, it does however mean that Blair and Bush should be tried for war crimes... Which even before that bonkers admission is what should have happened anyway.
So let's punish people responsible for the crimes then. Not everybody in the UK or US is a danger because millions of people were killed in our name. Not every Muslim is a danger when terrorists kill in their name.
But it is. I'm sure those supportive of Islamism think the west have a problem because 'we' can't stop bombing, invading and supporting random armed groups in there communities. Some people here think the whole of Islam is an issue because of some horrific attacks. Let's isolate and deal with the fuck wits on both sides and let reasonable people see that the rest of us just want to get on with our lives.I think that is obvious, but that's not the argument.
But it is. I'm sure those supportive of Islamism think the west have a problem because 'we' can't stop bombing, invading and supporting random armed groups in there communities. Some people here think the whole of Islam is an issue because of some horrific attacks. Let's isolate and deal with the fuck wits on both sides and let reasonable people see that the rest of us just want to get on with our lives.
1. When you turn it round I'm sure Muslims think we're all imperialists trying to wage Christian religious war against them. They're just as scared as we are.I think you like many many people vastly underestimate how many Muslims hold extreme views,Like I said, that are not compatible with our modern values.
Why do people like you always find a way to turn it on us, the west when these people have spent hundreds of years behaving this way?
It's weird
1. When you turn it round I'm sure Muslims think we're all imperialists trying to wage Christian religious war against them. They're just as scared as we are.
2. Many Muslim countries have horrific practices. None more than Saudi who actually export the most extreme ideologies and fund schools that teach kids that martyrdom is the goal. I'd stop all funding to these countries immediately and ban any British businesses from trading with them.
3. "These people have spent hundreds of years behaving that way" - In the same period we've (the west) enslaved a whole race of people, committed horrific genocide in Africa, almost wiped out native Americans, attempted to wipe out Jews and even in the last few years been the cause of the deaths of millions of Muslims.
The rhetoric that the whole religion is the problem feeds the divide. We need to come together as a human race and tell the extremists on all sides that they won't be welcome anywhere.
I think you like many many people vastly underestimate how many Muslims hold extreme views,Like I said, that are not compatible with our modern values.
Why do people like you always find a way to turn it on us, the west when these people have spent hundreds of years behaving this way?
It's weird
Do you reckon most of Britain spent all their time arguing that Hitler and the nazis only did what they did because of the treaty of Versailles?claiming it was on us why they behaved the way they did.... Or was it just because they were always that way anyway
Bad example really. Hitler and the Nazis did indeed get a certain level of popular support, partly because the Treaty of Versailles was seen as overly harsh on the people of Germany, and was used and manipulated by bad people to whip up a certain resentment, and give legitimacy to actions that would have otherwise been condemned absolutely.Do you reckon most of Britain spent all their time arguing that Hitler and the nazis only did what they did because of the treaty of Versailles?claiming it was on us why they behaved the way they did.... Or was it just because they were always that way anyway
I think moving on with it is a better solution than me calling you a racist and you calling me a grooming sympathiser that some would prefer tbh.I absolutely 1 million % disagree with you on this subject (besides Saudi Arabia ) , I can't be any clearer.
What do we do now? Just move on Is my best guess
Should we deport all the Tories?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?