Marketing Thoughts (6 Viewers)

duffer said:

Since when was there a law against ridiculing pseudo-intellectual business speak? It exists, you know it does.

That site you mention had at least one interesting link though - the importance of listening to your customers.

http://www.corebrand.com/news-views/blog/863-listening-the-most-powerful-tool-for-your-brand

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I'm just looking at some marketing tenders. What a game to be in! Talk utter drivel yet charge the world for it. I'm changing career.

fernandopartridge said:

I'm just looking at some marketing tenders. What a game to be in! Talk utter drivel yet charge the world for it. I'm changing career.

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Indeed. Two of my cousins in Dublin work in marketing. Or as they would put themselves "....have made a career out of bullshit..."

fernandopartridge said:

I think you should start calling yourself Obtuse. It's more fitting than Astute.

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I see your funny joke failed again.

Astute said:

I see your funny joke failed again.

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It was a factual statement. Thanks once again for demonstrating its validity.

Grendel said:

I cannot believe the forum is imploding again – and now it is over ticket pricing.

Well I am getting the usual statements of derision from, to quote one in particular, the usual suspects so what from a marketing perspective would you do?

Pricing

Pricing isn’t an isolated department in marketing and if it was it would maximise price and not lower it. To set a reasonable price you would benchmark other competitors in your industry to establish a “list price”

- Look at the average pricing structure in the League
- Look at the concession and children’s offers
- Analyse special offers that clubs may do
- Look at what they charge for on-line bookings and also postage and walk up charges

If you look at the pricing structure of most clubs, like it or not, they have done this as the pricing is almost identical. You would expect newly promoted clubs to have cheaper (they have) and Inner London to be higher (they are)

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Again you misunderstand the market we are in. Other clubs are not competing for people in Coventry's cash. What they charge is irrelevant. Our competition are what other people do with their money. "Oh, but everyone else does it" doesn't fly. Football is not a normal business, you won't go and support Villa because the tickets are cheaper. You might decide to take the family out instead though.

Customer Loyalty

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What the debate is missing is that customer loyalty is essential and repeat purchase vital for Long Term success. This will in an industry like this have a huge influence on pricing policy and strategy.

Loyalty in football is the season ticket buyer. He pays up front so guarantees revenue and long term commitment so needs to be secured.

In my view the Season Ticket offer is competitive. It meets the criteria set out above. The securing of a large base of loyal customers allows the club to set a competitive individual pricing strategy in that season to attract other customers in the hope that they will then become loyal customers in the future. This is undoubtedly the case with Sheffield United who have a very high percentage of Season Ticket holders. This is why they have offered a lower price for one stand. It is not to do with an acknowledgement of a lower demographic or an urgency to generate short term revenue. It’s the opposite; it’s to secure a long term commitment next season and at a higher rate than CCFC.

Coventry has a problem in that it has a very competitive offering for the season but a lower take up of the offer so it relies now on attracting the floating fan on a more permanent basis.

Personally I would focus on this aspect as a priority and offer a reduced offer of a season ticket purchase until the end of September with reductions match by match. I would also look to offer a 3 year ticket with a 20% reduction off annual prices and an offer of free cup tickets as part of the deal up to a specified round. I would also look at working with ACL to offer season tickets with reduced parking prices to be used in conjunction. All promotes loyalty.

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You're right that STs should be the focus, however you don't address the core problem with them: the up front investment. Like it or not, people don't find it easy to part with that much money up front. If there were no mobile phone subsidies, only very few would buy a smartphone because of the prohibitive cost. The monthly pay deal is vital, we need to be lowering the barriers to entry, not raising them. A 3 year season ticket may be great, but in reality the only people who would take it up are the hard core faithful who would probably buy it anyway.

Price Subvention

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Lowering prices is panacea to the sales department as it makes life so much easier. Sales people will always site “the markets on its arse” so lower prices. Good or bad? Well the marketing slogan is Fixed is good and Variable is bad. Why?

- It suggests an inferior product (you would expect smaller clubs to use the strategy)
- It reduces revenue unless the numbers exceed prior revenue (very unlikely unless the original strategy was hopelessly miscalculated)
- It does not always work and does not increase revenue (disaster)
- Importantly it’s very hard to extract yourself from and sets an expectancy for a long time to come even if the product offering improves
- It doesn’t secure loyalty (purchase of a season ticket) actually it endangers loyalty as it rewards short termism over loyalty

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All of this only applies to short term, random ticket offers which are limited by the FL anyway. It doesn't address overall pricing strategy.

Possible Alternatives

The pricing structure once announced should not be reduced – lower prices equals’ distress and as stated does not encourage loyalty. So on an match by match basis look at alternatives; - Statement of fact without evidence. There's evidence all over this forum that ST holders couldn't give a shiny shit how much matchday tickets cost. Look at our actual competitors (bowling, cinema, theme parks, zoos) and you'll find that frequent price promotions are common. Virtually no-one pays full price at Alton Towers. Variable pricing is not only common in our industry, it's vital for addressing the issues we are currently facing.

- Loyalty on a medium term – package “unpopular matches” together and give a very good offer on five match deals with an inducement to purchase a further package on completion - Good idea.
- Family tickets – Important to have loyal family groups. So if two adults attend certain games allow up to two of their children under 12 to go with them for free
- Special promotions (Food and Drink vouchers and reduced car parking rates) at specified games - I think this could be done better, I don't think cheap food and drink will get people in, but player meet and greets, or legends day, or flag day or whatever might.
- Membership scheme. We have one apparently as do over 50% of clubs in the league. Is it well advertised and is it a competitive offer? Decide a rate and offer significant discounts on match tickers and a free JPT or F A Cup round 1 ticket.

Summary

- Focus most attention on the season ticket percentage – this is unacceptably low and the main issue
- Do not randomly slash prices – distressful and ultimately damaging to consumer loyalty, the brand and profitability.
- Promote targeted packaged offers with genuine appeal
- Make sure the awareness is there via fixed marketing. Awareness is vital.

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Some not bad ideas in there G, but you are making the mistake of treating the entertainment industry the same as other industries, and the football industry like any other business.

Customers are far less rational when it comes to entertainment and football in particular that you are accounting for. The customers are weird in that many will happily pay more to see the business succeed. It's far more brand management than anything else. The fans have to feel part of the club, like they're valued. You also need to recognise that you can't really expand your market much beyond the local borders, you're fighting for a fixed pool of customers, and in our case a pool of not particularly wealthy ones. It's mostly C2DEs in this area, especially as ABs tend to move out of Coventry, or have moved here from work.

You also ignore that the fans are only part of the equation in football finance. A large crowd can draw in other revenue and can increase the chances of higher quality football, even if they don't bring in lots of cash. The crowd in an investment you make as much as a cash cow. Keeping ticket prices high is the same as instituting a wage cap: you can cut costs but you also risk cutting success on the pitch (which is kind of the club's primary purpose).

We can argue all day about the pricing, but when you've got customers consistently stating it as an issue, it's probably time to look at it. Personally, I think the loss of the monthly pay option for STs has had the biggest impact as it's a barrier to people making the impulse purchase for the season, and needs to be addressed ASAP. The normal matchday pricing could be priced a bit smarter (instead of just above £20, just below would make a world of difference and probably not cost the club), but overall I'd guess the product has more impact of walk up sales than the price.

One other point, you've not mentioned is the product itself. Match days currently rely 100% on the quality of the game to make people want to go. I think a lot more could be done to improve the match day experience. Get people there earlier, make them leave later, make them spend more money, get the kids nagging to come back. The club needs to look at the whole day as their product, not just the 105 minutes after 3pm. Connect with pubs and clubs, put on things for kids while Dad is watching the game, get players out meeting fans, whatever. The product on the pitch is virtually impossible to control from week to week, so reduce it's importance in the day, focus on the things you can improve.

The real strength a football club has is it's history and it's ability to make people feel special. Running out at the Ricoh costs the club nothing, but is a massive prize for some fans, similarly meeting players or touring the ground, or taking part in training, whatever. The club doesn't leverage this at all, instead just hoping that the product on the pitch will turn the corner and do the advertising for them. Most businesses would kill to be in that position with it's customers, we take it for granted.

tl;dr: focus on the match day experience to improve crowds, but make the barrier to entry lower for the loyal and be smart about price points, don't pick on just over a round number.

All kinds of errors in there, but apparently my post is too long (ladies) so can't edit it.

fernandopartridge said:

While it's a novel idea if 5k adults turned up with 3 kids each that's 15k seats occupied for nothing.

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You put a limit - then prioritize.

Say this is limited to 1500 kids- Open to ST holders 1st- bang there 500 st's sold, if some of those only need 1 under 12 then there are more ST's available. then start to do it where you have to buy 2 or 3 games in a row.

But the biggest issue is how hard it is to buy tickets- Gallagher is not central enough and waiting times are far to long. They need to get something sorted, and quick before people give up.

Remember u12's JSB's get free season tickets in the family zone, plus tickets for to accompanying adults tickets are the cheapest season tickets available, got mine in the family zone with two grandkids JSB's good deal if you ask me

sky_blue_up_north said:

Remember u12's JSB's get free season tickets in the family zone, plus tickets for to accompanying adults tickets are the cheapest season tickets available, got mine in the family zone with two grandkids JSB's good deal if you ask me

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Well, £25 quid which for a season of football isn't much.

CCFC said:

Well no not really because we only averaged around 2k last year with 2k paying not 11k and they were able to fund last seasons squad on these attendances and were preparing to do the same this season.

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Not really, last season after selling our top scorer we looked like a league two team. We have to forget about what was funded last season and what the ticket prices were as it was obviously a 1 one short term situation.

I want to get out of this league ASAP, and that means getting as much funding in as possible in order to have a squad capable of getting promotion. Only having 6-7k paying customers give us no edge and puts in no better position than someone like gillingham or Yeovil.




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stupot07 said:

Not really, last season after selling our top scorer we looked like a league two team. We have to forget about what was funded last season and what the ticket prices were as it was obviously a 1 one short term situation.

I want to get out of this league ASAP, and that means getting as much funding in as possible in order to have a squad capable of getting promotion. Only having 6-7k paying customers give us no edge and puts in no better position than someone like gillingham or Yeovil.




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We may have looked a league 2 team after January but the squad wasn't funded on a league 2 budget.

Then what if we get promoted, struggle for a couple of years in the championship on 14k crowds until we drop back down to league 1? There has to be a better plan that that.

Not that the idea proposed is full proof but if the club have to take a short term hit in ticket prices and ticket sales to regain the fan trust and get fans coming back in then they should do it. They were preparing for 3 years at sixfields so a small setback at the Ricoh shouldn't be a problem for them.

The club should be putting there full time and effort into getting fans back in the doors, especially the kids. Not only rebuilding the fan base to the previous level but increasing it from what it was before. Whatever the short term cost is within reason.

Think of it as an investment in the fan base, the same way the club invest in the academy for the future. If you're only interested in the next season and the short term goals then why not scrap the academy and channel all the money towards the first team?

www.mishcon.com/assets/managed/docs...ances_in_the_Football_League_-_March_2010.pdf

Really interesting paper on increasing attendances focussed on the English game. Has some good case studies from Championship and L1 teams. Seems to say we're all right to be honest. Recommends family tickets and promotions, cheap season tickets, family days with players involved and goody bags and match ticket bundles.

Bradford increased their season ticket take up from 5000 to 12000 by offering STs for £138 apparently. Derby sell 6 game bundles you can use whenever. Forest had a mixed family area with players from both teams visiting and each kid getting a foam hand and a goody bag.

Would be interesting to see how categorising games and basing prices off that would impact the ticket revenue , making bigger games and local derbies more expensive I.E normal prices CAT A .... And non glamour ties , of which there are a few , maybe 5pound cheaper .

shmmeee said:

www.mishcon.com/assets/managed/docs/downloads/doc_2420/Increasing_Attendances_in_the_Football_League_-_March_2010.pdf

Really interesting paper on increasing attendances focussed on the English game. Has some good case studies from Championship and L1 teams. Seems to say we're all right to be honest. Recommends family tickets and promotions, cheap season tickets, family days with players involved and goody bags and match ticket bundles.

Bradford increased their season ticket take up from 5000 to 12000 by offering STs for £138 apparently. Derby sell 6 game bundles you can use whenever. Forest had a mixed family area with players from both teams visiting and each kid getting a foam hand and a goody bag.

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That's a really impressive jump from Bradford.

Sadly some on here aren't interested in increasing attendances they would rather the club just charge the highest price possible knowing the hardcore fans will pay it whatever.

CCFC said:

We may have looked a league 2 team after January but the squad wasn't funded on a league 2 budget.

Then what if we get promoted, struggle for a couple of years in the championship on 14k crowds until we drop back down to league 1? There has to be a better plan that that.

Not that the idea proposed is full proof but if the club have to take a short term hit in ticket prices and ticket sales to regain the fan trust and get fans coming back in then they should do it. They were preparing for 3 years at sixfields so a small setback at the Ricoh shouldn't be a problem for them.

The club should be putting there full time and effort into getting fans back in the doors, especially the kids. Not only rebuilding the fan base to the previous level but increasing it from what it was before. Whatever the short term cost is within reason.

Think of it as an investment in the fan base, the same way the club invest in the academy for the future. If you're only interested in the next season and the short term goals then why not scrap the academy and channel all the money towards the first team?

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If we get promoted we're very likely to struggle in the championship and get relegated back to the league one after 2-3 year anyway. We just don't have the revenue to compete.

People are already complaining that tickets are too expensive, kids/JSB tickets aren't that expensive, it's the adults that are the problem. If people can't afford it, kids are free, the we get promoted, sorry but now it's £150-200 per child then those families with 2-3 children aren't going to spend £1-1.5k on season tickets in the championship.

At the end of the day, we still need revenue to compete and reduce reliance on borrowing money to fund the team.

Let's hope we never get to the PL and people are asked to pay £35-50 per match.

I like the thought of slightly cheaper tickets and ST's, family packages, bigger family area, and match bundle packages.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

stupot07 said:

If we get promoted we're very likely to struggle in the championship and get relegated back to the league one after 2-3 year anyway. We just don't have the revenue to compete.

People are already complaining that tickets are too expensive, kids/JSB tickets aren't that expensive, it's the adults that are the problem. If people can't afford it, kids are free, the we get promoted, sorry but now it's £150-200 per child then those families with 2-3 children aren't going to spend £1-1.5k on season tickets in the championship.

At the end of the day, we still need revenue to compete and reduce reliance on borrowing money to fund the team.

Let's hope we never get to the PL and people are asked to pay £35-50 per match.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

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Forget about the kids go free thing, it's just one idea amongst many and not really the point.

The point is that the club should be putting there full commitment and focus into getting people back in the stadium, and rebuilding the fanbase up to and beyond the previous levels. If that means taking a short term reduction in revenue over the next couple of years then so be it.

We'd still have plenty of revenue to compete on the short term, it's not like I'm saying everyone should go in for free. It's also hard to predict the effect of attendances on other revenues. Say hypothetically we halved all prices and attendances increased from 10k to 17k for the season, we'd be slightly down on ticket revenue but how many more programmes would we sell? How much more money would be spent on merchandise? we have 10k with extra change in their pocket and 7k returning supporters. How many more sales of food and beverage or car parking (not really relevant to us at the current time but could be in the future). How would this effect sponsorship? Would we be able to negotiate an better price for existing deals, would we be able to get any new sponsorship deals?

If we're happy to be a yoyo team between L1 and the championship on 8-12k attendance hoping we get lucky one year and make it then that's fair enough we should carry on how we are now.

Like I said previously, it's not really much difference to investing in the academy. If you're only interested in the short term then maybe it should be scrapped to focus on investing in the first team.

Grendel said:

4,000 fans have already bought at £15 per ticket and they would probably have to be offered at £7.50 a ticket so half money back.

Many games will not attract 17,000 whatever the price.

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Again it's just hypothetical, I'm not suggesting it will be done so the point about offering the 4000 ST holders half money back is irrelevant and not the point but I'll entertain you.

Why would it not attract 17k? Sheffield Utd averaged 17.5k in this division, Charlton averaged 17k in league 1. Norwich, Southampton, Leicester all averaged over 20k in the division all at full price.
Look at what someone said about Bradford season ticket holders, increased by more than double because of an offer on season tickets. Now I'm suggesting way under the more than double that Bradford achieved so why wouldn't it be achievable?

Yes SP Quote tonight was interesting Said it is supposed to be a working mans game but that the prices are too expensive?

No he must also be Wrong.......

shmmeee said:

www.mishcon.com/assets/managed/docs/downloads/doc_2420/Increasing_Attendances_in_the_Football_League_-_March_2010.pdf

Really interesting paper on increasing attendances focussed on the English game. Has some good case studies from Championship and L1 teams. Seems to say we're all right to be honest. Recommends family tickets and promotions, cheap season tickets, family days with players involved and goody bags and match ticket bundles.

Bradford increased their season ticket take up from 5000 to 12000 by offering STs for £138 apparently. Derby sell 6 game bundles you can use whenever. Forest had a mixed family area with players from both teams visiting and each kid getting a foam hand and a goody bag.

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Doesn't matter to you on your massive wage.

Doesn't matter to me ether on my paupers wages I will find it.

But even I can see how families with young children and big mortgages would struggle.....

Grendel said:

Sheffields fans on average pay more than us as 65% are season ticket holders.
It wouldn't attract that as schemes have been done before and not increased attendances .
Bradford I don't know about now. I know for sure they don't have 12,000 season tickets this year and charge £20 admission.

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Grendel said:

Bradford I don't know about now. I know for sure they don't have 12,000 season tickets this year and charge £20 admission.

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The idea of Bradford was they charged stupid-cheap prices for a few years to try and get people into the habit of going - not everybody, but some. It was subsidised to an extent by their co-chairman.

If I get really bored I might see if it worked or not, although given their bouncing around just about every division going, it's probably hard to tell!

Grendel said:

Sheffields fans on average pay more than us as 65% are season ticket holders.
It wouldn't attract that as schemes have been done before and not increased attendances .
Bradford I don't know about now. I know for sure they don't have 12,000 season tickets this year and charge £20 admission.

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Took me two minutes to find this, as of June they had sold 9.5k season tickets sold + 2.5k flexicards which is still a great effort. I'd imagine they would have sold more since June so they are over 10k. From a quick look at the article Bradford were charging £200 for an adult season ticket early bird price which is less than £10 a match. They sell flexicards for £50 which then allow you to buy match tickets for £10. For 25 years season ticket holders was only £110 and non 25 years season ticket holders can pay to upgrade to the supporter suite to get one for £110

http://www.bradfordcityfc.co.uk/news/article/season-ticket-figure-2014-1593500.aspx

Deleted member 5849 said:

The idea of Bradford was they charged stupid-cheap prices for a few years to try and get people into the habit of going - not everybody, but some. It was subsidised to an extent by their co-chairman.

If I get really bored I might see if it worked or not, although given their bouncing around just about every division going, it's probably hard to tell!

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It's still in effect by the looks of it, lots of information about Bradford tickets in the link I posted in my previous post, they sold 9.5k season tickets and 2.5k of there flexitickets by June.

More information here http://www.bradfordcityfc.co.uk/new...-on-sale-now-for-city-supporters-1401095.aspx

http://www.bradfordcityfc.co.uk/news/article/season-ticket-figure-2014-1593500.aspx

CCFC said:

It's still in effect by the looks of it

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Well there you have it then, we'll have to wait and see if it works.

And it'll be bloody hard to check, too!

Warm shit beer yes, But they are the ones that are going to the match so they must be able to afford it.
We are talking about why some stay away so your comment is irrelevant.

Grendel said:

So what is a working mans price then? Will that working man also be prepared to pay quadruple the price for a lukewarm can of beer? If yes then he is not that poor is he?

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letsallsingtogether said:

Yes SP Quote tonight was interesting Said it is supposed to be a working mans game but that the prices are too expensive?

No he must also be Wrong.......

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Maybe SP is deflecting from another possible problem, that of players wages being too high, and this leading to high prices. As ticket income is a mere fraction of the clubs wages, either the wages need to come down, prices need to go up, or we need to write thank you letters to Joy and her investors for subsidising our football watching pleasure.

But like Coventry they have a big immigrant population that unfortunately do not subscribe to the Cities football team.

Grendel said:

That is interesting as their crowd against Yeovil last week was 12,601. Their population is much higher.

I guess if our attendance is more than 12,601 there is little evidence the strategy has worked.

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letsallsingtogether said:

But like Coventry they have a big immigrant population that unfortunately do not subscribe to the Cities football team.

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How are you defining 'big'. Coventry has a large female population, unfortunately they do subscribe in sufficient numbers either.

I don't necessarily mean that Coventry has a population of large females.

I've been doing a little digging regarding the relative price of watching the game.

A 1979 ticket v Man U, £1.80.




Had prices gone up in line with inflation, then for the 1976 ticket we'd now be paying £13.20 for that ticket.

If anyone has other figures they want to plumb into the analysis, I've used the inflation calculator here...

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

There's also an article here, mostly about the Premier League, holds some relevance to us though...

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/da.../aug/16/premier-league-football-ticket-prices

Basically, regardless of the level played, it seems football has become far more expensive to follow in both relative and absolute terms.

(Edit: Just dug out an 1993 ticket too. Not sure if this will come over, but that was £10. That comes out at £18 at today's prices. Better, but this was for top flght football against Arsenal).

duffer said:

I've been doing a little digging regarding the relative price of watching the game.

A 1979 ticket v Man U, £1.80.

View attachment 3793


Had prices gone up in line with inflation, then for the 1976 ticket we'd now be paying £13.20 for that ticket.

If anyone has other figures they want to plumb into the analysis, I've used the inflation calculator here...

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

There's also an article here, mostly about the Premier League, holds some relevance to us though...

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/da.../aug/16/premier-league-football-ticket-prices

Basically, regardless of the level played, it seems football has become far more expensive to follow in both relative and absolute terms.

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I've got a Gillingham ticket that was £10.

Rusty Trombone said:

I've got a Gillingham ticket that was £10.

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Good for you, me and about 27,000 others too. Maybe if prices were lower, there would be more Yeovil stubs floating around next week.

(These aren't, btw, my stubs. I was trying to find some historical data about our ticket prices, and I ended up trawling ebay. I wish I'd have kept mine now, some stubs seem to fetch a few bob).