"OK I'll Ask the Question" (1 Viewer)

[Tank Top]

From going from an alleged Dept free company, to one which is £60 million in the red, I find this revelation absolutely staggering, has anyone, any Idea where this figure has arisen
from, is it fabricated? out of necessity, Has Sisu borrowed from itself against the name of CCFC, therefore, not having a creditor outside of the Sisu family, Has the administrator the clout to demand to Know where the money has gone and where it actually lies, How can a company that is £60 mill in dept have plans to build a new Stadium at a cost of a further £30mill,It seems that Sisu/ Finance/Holdings/LTD/CCFC/ have several Baskets in which to keep their Identity and liabilities, "will we ever know" or will the facts be Filed in the "undisclosed Tray" like so much other stuff.

 

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[Skyblueweeman]

The way I see it Tankie, is that we're £1.3m in debt. The £60m (which is £45m in some outlets...maybe a but of sensationalism in some parts?) is reportedly what has been put in over the past 5 years. Player sales/ticket sales/merchandise isn't enough to keep a club running without additional investment. Whether this is classified as debt or investment by owners is up to interpretation.

Previous statements that have said we're debt free would insinuate that SISU had written the money invested, off. I could be totally wrong but I suspect that the reporting by the local media of this as debt rather than investment is intended to create more animosity towards CCFC/SISU.

It's not as if we hear headlines such as 'CCFC owe HMRC £30m' or 'CCFC still to pay 2 years worth of transfer fees'. The only 'we owe' statement that's in the public domain is the £1.3 to ACL. That is what our debt actually stands at, as I said, unless SISU will want to recoup their previous inputs.

WM

WM

 

[covan]

Long and short of it. We don't owe that out. Upside of the Ricoh one of SISU's companies owes it to another one of SISU's companies.

 

[SkyBlueCharlie]

The problem is that nobody out here really knows so everything we pontificate on is mere supposition based on half-truths, innuendo and the 'reading between the lines' of various statements.
What we do know is that sooner or later the accounts will have to be published and then the truth will be out. Better to wait until then rather than drive ourselves potty trying to make sense of a nonsensical situation. In the meantime lets concentrate on the football and look for six points over the holiday. (See...I live in cloud cuckoo land as well.)

 

[Grendel]

We were never debt free. It was a stupid statement in a series of stupid statements and actions by Ray "The Football Man" - we started in debt, discovered more debt and created yet even more debt.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

To put it bluntly...5 years of tenure = (5x12=60) £12m per year loss.......No way "What is it someone says?..."Pedro"
SISU have claimed losses of £5m per year, but never £12m per year. The meeting at Standard Triumph Club proved (Fisher and Waggot were quoted as saying this) that £35m was written off to equity.
Sepalla...When will you realise you're not wanted in Coventry!:blue:

 

[Grendel]

To put it bluntly...5 years of tenure = (5x12=60) £12m per year loss.......No way "What is it someone says?..."Pedro"
SISU have claimed losses of £5m per year, but never £12m per year. The meeting at Standard Triumph Club proved (Fisher and Waggot were quoted as saying this) that £35m was written off to equity.
Sepalla...When will you realise you're not wanted in Coventry!:blue:

We paid ex creditors first and the club when they inherited it was losing half a million every month -- still some of those people some want back.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

We paid ex creditors first and the club when they inherited it was losing half a million every month -- still some of those people some want back.

What part of "£35m written off to equity" don't you understand Grenduffy?
£60m - £35m = £25m(Loss) You do the maths mate..Doh!:facepalm:

 

[Godiva]

To put it bluntly...5 years of tenure = (5x12=60) £12m per year loss.......No way "What is it someone says?..."Pedro"
SISU have claimed losses of £5m per year, but never £12m per year. The meeting at Standard Triumph Club proved (Fisher and Waggot were quoted as saying this) that £35m was written off to equity.
Sepalla...When will you realise you're not wanted in Coventry!:blue:

Please read the many posts by OSB more carefully.
You are way off the mark.
Sisu have invested something like £30m - £35m in cash injection to cover losses. That's approximately equal to the combined loss over the past 5½ years. It was never £12m, but about £6m p/y under Ranson and less after him.
The £60m debt in one of the companies is a bit of a mystery, but as the accounts have all been sifned off by external auditors, there is an explanation - just not know to us.
We have no hard evidence that the £35m debt has been converted to equity. This doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just that we have no evidence. Until we see evidence (signed off accounts or statement from the administrator) you cannot say it has been proved either way.
So there's no poof - only assumptions.

 

[Ashdown1]

Its always been hey diddle diddle the hedge fund is pulling a fiddle and for those Leicester fans sneering at us, if they think the Thais controlling them are not leaving them in huge debt behind the scenes they must be misguided.

 

[hill83]

Hold tight for abuse

 

[Godiva]

Hold tight for abuse

I am immune.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

I'm not sure we're allowed any kind of opinion that could be seen as critical of SISU on here.

 

[Godiva]

I'm not sure we're allowed any kind of opinion that could be seen as critical of SISU on here.

I think it's the other way around. It seems nobody is allowed to give any reasonable explanation for their actions without being heavily abused.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Originally Posted by Sky Blue Kid
To put it bluntly...5 years of tenure = (5x12=60) £12m per year loss.......No way "What is it someone says?..."Pedro"
SISU have claimed losses of £5m per year, but never £12m per year. The meeting at Standard Triumph Club proved (Fisher and Waggot were quoted as saying this) that £35m was written off to equity.
Sepalla...When will you realise you're not wanted in Coventry!:blue:



Please read the many posts by OSB more carefully.
You are way off the mark.
Sisu have invested something like £30m - £35m in cash injection to cover losses. That's approximately equal to the combined loss over the past 5½ years. It was never £12m, but about £6m p/y under Ranson and less after him.
The £60m debt in one of the companies is a bit of a mystery, but as the accounts have all been sifned off by external auditors, there is an explanation - just not know to us.
We have no hard evidence that the £35m debt has been converted to equity. This doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just that we have no evidence. Until we see evidence (signed off accounts or statement from the administrator) you cannot say it has been proved either way.
So there's no poof - only assumptions



@Godiva....Please read more carefully, in particular the highlighted section of my post..."QUOTED" being the operative word

 

[oldskyblue58]

I posted on this yesterday ........ This is what I think went on

SISU have funded SBS&L directly who hasve then funded the rest of the group including Prozone when they owned it

THe £60m "owed " by CCFC Limited is in two sections .......

£35m or so of it is equal to the creditors that SISU discounted in the deal when they came in. They took the discount on the creditors themselves to do the deal but left creditors outstanding in full in the accounts of CCFC and CCFCH. Instead of being owed to different people in the accounts of CCFC & CCFCH (it couldnt be because those creditors had agreed to write it off) it was transferred to an inter company account owed to SBS&L and ultimately SISU...... when in actual fact those creditors were never actually paid by SISU or SBS&L

The second part £25m apparently is the additional cash flow required and given to CCFC Ltd via CCFCH , and ultimately SISU. It will not agree exactly to the losses in the five years because things like depreciation of assets, amortisation of players contracts are not things involving any movement in cash.

So is £60m outstanding ? ....... not in my book because SISU have taken credit for items that are never going to be paid ...... to tune of £35m

but thats just my opinion from what i can see in the accounts filed by the directors for 2008 to 2011

BTW there is no debt showing in the 2011 accounts to ARVO in either CCFC ltd or CCFC H Ltd but there is mention of it in SBS&L. The assets in CCFCLtd and CCFCH seem to be charged to ARVO based on money lent to SBS&L or SISU by ARVO

 

[Godiva]

@Godiva....Please read more carefully, in particular the highlighted section of my post..."QUOTED" being the operative word

In your original post you highlighted the word Prooved and put in brackets that it was said.
They may have said it, but that is not proof of anything other that they said it. They didn't show paperwork, the files at company house doesn't show it. We have no proof.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Written off to equity to me means converted to shares of some description. There is no evidence this has happened although the facility to do so has been filed

The Administrator said to the court there is £60m in debts outstanding not £60m of debt and equity.

What has been said points to no new share issue and that £35m written off to equity as being not what has happened

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

In your original post you highlighted the word Prooved and put in brackets that it was said.
They may have said it, but that is not proof of anything other that they said it. They didn't show paperwork, the files at company house doesn't show it. We have no proof.

Why do you try to split hairs ffs?
Fisher and Waggot, along with a film crew,CET reporters, and over 200 supporters are lying now are they??? Those words were said, captured on film, audio equiptment, written and posted in the CET by reporters.....and of greater importance...Heard by supporters of CCFC....This is being quoted by the CEO of CCFC.
Why would they lie...After all they are Open and Transparent aren't they?:facepalm:

 

[Ashdown1]

Written off to equity to me means converted to shares of some description. There is no evidence this has happened although the facility to do so has been filed

The Administrator said to the court there is £60m in debts outstanding not £60m of debt and equity.

What has been said points to no new share issue and that £35m written off to equity as being not what has happened

Yes more lies revealed you mean !!

 

[Sub]

Written off to equity to me means converted to shares of some description. There is no evidence this has happened although the facility to do so has been filed

The Administrator said to the court there is £60m in debts outstanding not £60m of debt and equity.

What has been said points to no new share issue and that £35m written off to equity as being not what has happened

so is this legal or have SISU comitted fraud ? ( this is a question not a statement)

 

[oldskyblue58]

I have to assume it is legal Sub........ only a court can prove otherwise

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

So anyone that has an opinion must not say anything without proof? unless they state at the end "Allegedly":claping hands:

 

[Godiva]

Written off to equity to me means converted to shares of some description. There is no evidence this has happened although the facility to do so has been filed

The Administrator said to the court there is £60m in debts outstanding not £60m of debt and equity.

What has been said points to no new share issue and that £35m written off to equity as being not what has happened

Yes more lies revealed you mean !!

It may not have been a lie, but a part of a plan they have not yet executed.

To me that plan could be:
Reduce the rent cost, obtain Higgs shares at ACL, convert debts to equity, release shares to fans, restart from scratch.

As long as they haven't been able to agree rent terms with ACL that plan would be on hold.

So, there may be a plausible explanation to why it was said.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

By saying what was quoted, could this not be held as "Misrepresentation" in a court of law?...Just asking....Allegedly!

 

[Warwickhunt]

Long and short of it. We don't owe that out. Upside of the Ricoh one of SISU's companies owes it to another one of SISU's companies.

Do you think SISU will shag their own companies the same way as all the others?

 

[Jack Griffin]

The second part £25m apparently is the additional cash flow required and given to CCFC Ltd via CCFCH , and ultimately SISU. It will not agree exactly to the losses in the five years because things like depreciation of assets, amortisation of players contracts are not things involving any movement in cash.

And what will that £25M be made up of? Is it is real funding to pay for loss making activities of a football club or is there an element of charging to build up a book debt to SISU so that their barganing position for an exit is better. What did that £25M buy?

To get rid of SISU, someone will have to pay them off. I don't think they'll go with a big fat loss hanging on them and I sure as hell don't want the club to be paying off a massive debt to them for years to come as it will hamper our progress.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

It may not have been a lie, but a part of a plan they have not yet executed.

To me that plan could be:
Reduce the rent cost, obtain Higgs shares at ACL, convert debts to equity, release shares to fans, restart from scratch.

As long as they haven't been able to agree rent terms with ACL that plan would be on hold.

So, there may be a plausible explanation to why it was said.

I understand what you're saying Godiva, but one tiny little thing doesn't support what you are saying mate. Please read the following very carefully.....

Chief executive Tim Fisher and development director Steve Waggott faced a grilling during the supporters' meeting at the Standard Triumph Club in Tile Hill.
The club chiefs revealed:
* Former director Onye Igwe has left the board and Sisu altogether.


* Controversial owners Sisu have committed to the club for the next three years.
* Sisu have now pumped £42 million in to the club – £35 million of which they have written off as equity.

Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...iery-fans-forum-92746-31833261/#ixzz2Opi2sTW9


The highlighted section stipulates "£35m of which they have written off"...Past tense!.......Already been done......NOT..Might do in the future:facepalm:
​

 

[Godiva]

I understand what you're saying Godiva, but one tiny little thing doesn't support what you are saying mate. Please read the following very carefully.....

Chief executive Tim Fisher and development director Steve Waggott faced a grilling during the supporters' meeting at the Standard Triumph Club in Tile Hill.
The club chiefs revealed:
* Former director Onye Igwe has left the board and Sisu altogether.


* Controversial owners Sisu have committed to the club for the next three years.
* Sisu have now pumped £42 million in to the club – £35 million of which they have written off as equity.

Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...iery-fans-forum-92746-31833261/#ixzz2Opi2sTW9


The highlighted section stipulates "£35m of which they have written off"...Past tense!.......Already been done......NOT..Might do in the future:facepalm:
​

Are you even reading the posts or just picking up random words?

Please read the many posts by OSB more carefully.
You are way off the mark.
Sisu have invested something like £30m - £35m in cash injection to cover losses. That's approximately equal to the combined loss over the past 5½ years. It was never £12m, but about £6m p/y under Ranson and less after him.
The £60m debt in one of the companies is a bit of a mystery, but as the accounts have all been sifned off by external auditors, there is an explanation - just not know to us.
We have no hard evidence that the £35m debt has been converted to equity. This doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just that we have no evidence. Until we see evidence (signed off accounts or statement from the administrator) you cannot say it has been proved either way.
So there's no poof - only assumptions.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

@ Godiva....

I'm just assuming Fisher said "£35m has been written off to equity" am I?....That implies "It has been done" not "Might happen in the future"
Do you actually read what people are saying?
I am alluding to the fact Fisher made this statement.....but then this is SISU were talking about.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

@ Godiva....

I'm just assuming Fisher said "£35m has been written off to equity" am I?....That implies "It has been done" not "Might happen in the future"
Do you actually read what people are saying?
I am alluding to the fact Fisher made this statement.....but then this is SISU we're talking about.

 

[Tank Top]

Thanks Fellas,Nice one OSB.....As usual...
Tankie......

 

[rupert_bear]

Well this is my take on it. It is called dumping and very common in the U.S. A dormant company is formed as a subsidery,and sisu may have a number, debt from other companies that have come under the sisu banner is transferred to this "dormant" company which is then put into administration or even liquidated. The loss is wiped and the ailing company sold off with sisu winning at both ends. With our situation as the money is owed to itself sisu have brought in the administrator of their choice, announced this £60million debt, a sudden surge from 45million. The admin bloke will put the club up for sale offering the debt at say 50p in the pound so any taker would have to pay 30million, clever 'en it. Excepts it leaves our football club in limbo, it leaves us fans in limbo. I also think ACL, their advisors or those against sisu got wind of this and reacted in the way they did which forced sisu into going down the administration route, had it been left it could quite possibly been liquidation and the end of Coventry City Football Club and believe me Joy Seppalla wouldn't care a shite about that. I fear this is a long slog.

 

[Grendel]

Well this is my take on it. It is called dumping and very common in the U.S. A dormant company is formed as a subsidery,and sisu may have a number, debt from other companies that have come under the sisu banner is transferred to this "dormant" company which is then put into administration or even liquidated. The loss is wiped and the ailing company sold off with sisu winning at both ends. With our situation as the money is owed to itself sisu have brought in the administrator of their choice, announced this £60million debt, a sudden surge from 45million. The admin bloke will put the club up for sale offering the debt at say 50p in the pound so any taker would have to pay 30million, clever 'en it. Excepts it leaves our football club in limbo, it leaves us fans in limbo. I also think ACL, their advisors or those against sisu got wind of this and reacted in the way they did which forced sisu into going down the administration route, had it been left it could quite possibly been liquidation and the end of Coventry City Football Club and believe me Joy Seppalla wouldn't care a shite about that. I fear this is a long slog.

You know whose taking over don't you?

When's it happening?

 

[rupert_bear]

I wish i did Grendel my dear, i don't think it's the American though. I have a suspicion sisu won't disappear altogether and stay on in some sort of guise as an investor perhaps. I really think we are stuffed unless some sort of amicable agreement is formed between a new "owner" and our old owner. Maybe thats the plan who knows.