PKWH on CWR Shane O'Connor 23/10/2013 (6 Viewers)

[Nick]

Probably because both Fisher and Seppala have both said, that they don't wish to deal with CCC. But its ok as they have both stated their wish to build a new stadium on the outskirts of the City. If Fisher says they intend to build a new stadium, who are we to doubt him.

To be fair, nobody really believed they would move the club away did they? That was always just a bluff to many (including me)

 

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[Cheshire Sky Blue]

I didn't understand the desire to own the freehold either - I thought they were after ACL. But Ms Seppala keeps saying she wants the freehold, so I can only go with that.
If sisu (ccfc Holdings) own the freehold it increases the assets sisu are managing - thereby increases their salary.
Owning the freehold would also give right to build a hotel, offices or housing - the much sought land development - and that would increase revenue.

In any case - if ACL's figures add up and their business really is that much better now - then why would they change it? They would maybe want to buy ACL at some point, but apparently it is not in sisu's short term planning.

I think that what you will find is SISU want the Freehold and the lease that ACL currently own. The freehold generates no cash and only gives limited control of the leaseholder. SISU would still therefore have to pay rent to ACL. So I think you may be missing something.

 

[CaptainMorgan]

Any comment from Mr Linnell, who has been emphatic in his view that the Ricoh can't possibly survive without a football club that can't fill the ground from this catchment area?

 

[fernandopartridge]

I think that what you will find is SISU want the Freehold and the lease that ACL currently own. The freehold generates no cash and only gives limited control of the leaseholder. SISU would still therefore have to pay rent to ACL. So I think you may be missing something.

Did you read his post? He is talking about the freehold, not just of the Ricoh complex, but this prime development land that is nearby somewhere.

 

[Nick]

I think that what you will find is SISU want the Freehold and the lease that ACL currently own. The freehold generates no cash and only gives limited control of the leaseholder. SISU would still therefore have to pay rent to ACL. So I think you may be missing something.

How is the lease paid? Was that just paid in one up front payment at the start or is that monthly like rent?

 

[torchomatic]

We don't know if it can yet, can we? Only time will tell.

Any comment from Mr Linnell, who has been emphatic in his view that the Ricoh can't possibly survive without a football club that can't fill the ground from this catchment area?

 

[oldskyblue58]

the averaging of three or four independent valuations only really works if

a) the council and or ACL need to sell or are forced to sell
b) that the terms of reference for each valuation is the same
c) the valuations are based on accurate current information

If CCC or ACL only really would like to sell then the important thing is their expectation of value not an independent valuation. If they are saying that they are viable and prepared to carry on then a valuation will achieve nothing.

The independent valuation then only becomes important to the purchaser in terms of finance raising in order to purchase at a price acceptable to the vendor. That does not mean that the valuation is anything like the sale price

 

[fernandopartridge]

How is the lease paid? Was that just paid in one up front payment at the start or is that monthly like rent?

They paid £21m up front, financed through a loan from Yorkshire Bank.

When ACL ran into difficulties paying the loan, the Council refinanced the remaining balance at a cheaper rate.

I think that's how it worked.

 

[Nick]

They paid £21m up front, financed through a loan from Yorkshire Bank.

When ACL ran into difficulties paying the loan, the Council refinanced the remaining balance at a cheaper rate.

I think that's how it worked.

Ahh so that is what that mortgage was for.

 

[Godiva]

I think that what you will find is SISU want the Freehold and the lease that ACL currently own. The freehold generates no cash and only gives limited control of the leaseholder. SISU would still therefore have to pay rent to ACL. So I think you may be missing something.

I think we all miss a lot - facts, information and the real agenda's of the many different stakeholders.
What we do have in abundance is assumptions, suggestions and misunderstandings.

Never mind that - the freehold will be valuable for sisu as it would increase the asset pool they manage - thereby increase their paychecks.
It would also open the doors for some development contracts - increasing the revenue.

ACL have a lease running for many years - breaking that would cost a lot in compensation. That would probably not happen.
What could happen is the club returning to the Ricoh, paying no rent only matchday costs and getting the ACL shares of the F/B. Combine that with the club owning the freehold you may see a sustainable future for the club.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It was never just a football ground, more than half of the revenue even when the club was there was from outside the city, let alone outside football.

What it should mean is that it's better placed to offer preferential terms to the football club at times where it finds itself down on it's luck.

ACL being strong helps everyone.

Call me old fashioned if you will, but I like my football grounds to be centred around football.

Self-interested? yep, I'm a Coventry fan!

But all this diversification concerns me that it means the club forgets the essence of what it is anyway, and to regain that it needs a strong sense of place regardless.

 

[Houdi]

To be fair, nobody really believed they would move the club away did they? That was always just a bluff to many (including me)

In which case, we can all sit back in eager anticipation for Tim's long waited for, new stadium plans. How much longer do you think we will have to wait? Remembering how Les Reid was telling us that SISU were the preferred bidder at Brandon, despite Sandhu publically stating any sale would have to guarantee continued use of Stock Cars/Speedway/Greyhounds. Despite tickets already being sold for next year's World Stock Car Final. You would have thought if it was a genuine desire to build a new stadium, then by now there would be at least 1 credible site identified. The area surrounding Coventry is not that big.

 

[duffer]

I am sorry, but your question was not related to wether it was a bailout or not.
And anyway, I have no straight answer for you. It is my priority no 1, that the club and stadium is united ... that will benefit the club the most in the long term and is the only solutiuon that support most fans ambition of returning to the top flight. Everything else is of less interests to me. Be it if sisu go bankrupt or ACL make a fortune or Fisher gets fired .... I don't really care.
But I did say in this and another thread that the freehold should be sold to the club for the exact amount CCC has pumped into the Ricoh project over time.

So you are saying that the taxpayer shouldn't lose out so that SISU can benefit then?

I'm thinking that figure would be at least £24m: £14m for the mortgage, and £10m for the grant (and possibly a bit more for all of the related works around the site).

But of course the freehold doesn't give SISU ACL, who are effectively tenants, or would you want the council to give up their share in ACL for that too. If so, you're going to have to buy out the Higgs trust, who can veto the sale. Another £4 - £6m?

So around £30m for the whole shebang. Which is still a good deal compared to £25m for 12,000 seats in the sticks. Does that sound about right? It's a long way from the £7m that seems to have been suggested in the Les Reid article.

 

[skybluefred]

I think some on here seem to think the value of the bricks / steel / mortar should include any value that ACL has built into it.

ACL is a very viable business and they have a long lease on the Stadia, Selling the Ricoh who have a detrimental effect
on ACL so of course ACL should be well Compensated.

 

[Godiva]

So you are saying that the taxpayer shouldn't lose out so that SISU can benefit then?

I'm thinking that figure would be at least £24m: £14m for the mortgage, and £10m for the grant (and possibly a bit more for all of the related works around the site).

But of course the freehold doesn't give SISU ACL, who are effectively tenants, or would you want the council to give up their share in ACL for that too. If so, you're going to have to buy out the Higgs trust, who can veto the sale. Another £4 - £6m?

So around £30m for the whole shebang. Which is still a good deal compared to £25m for 12,000 seats in the sticks. Does that sound about right? It's a long way from the £7m that seems to have been suggested in the Les Reid article.

Yes - that is pretty much what I say.

The £7m figure is nonsense.

 

[duffer]

Yes - that is pretty much what I say.

The £7m figure is nonsense.

Then don't fall off your chair, but I'd tend to agree with you. I can understand why people don't want to sell to SISU, but to be honest I'm not looking at this from the football club's point as much as the taxpayer. If the taxpayer can get out without a loss, I don't think it matters who they sell to. The club have already decided to move out, I'd love them back, but I don't want the burden to fall on the City. Blimey. I may print this out and frame it.

 

[Wheres Wally (and Fergie)]

If ACL have managed to generate profit without the football club, it's clear why SISU want to get their grubby little mits on it. Unfortunately, CCFC is just a pawn in the negotiations, although I think SISU thought they would weaken ACL by withdrawing the club to Northampton. It seems that ACL have upped their game and therefore any sale price will probably be more than SISU bargained for. It all looks like posturing at the mo, tho still can't see CCC ever selling to SISU so at what point do SISU say 'bye! Nothing will happen, anyway, till after the JR appeal.

 

[Godiva]

Then don't fall off your chair, but I'd tend to agree with you. I can understand why people don't want to sell to SISU, but to be honest I'm not looking at this from the football club's point as much as the taxpayer. If the taxpayer can get out without a loss, I don't think it matters who they sell to. The club have already decided to move out, I'd love them back, but I don't want the burden to fall on the City. Blimey. I may print this out and frame it.

Heart starter! Where the Hell is the heart starter?
First OSB, now you -both agreeing with me on the same day.
It's a conspiracy.
WTF did I do wrong?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Heart starter! Where the Hell is the heart starter?
First OSB, now you -both agreeing with me on the same day.
It's a conspiracy.
WTF did I do wrong?

There's been an outbreak of the courtesy virus recently?

 

[RPHunt]

I would prefer to talk about the future of CCFC than the future of ACL, but as so many seem unwilling to let it go, how about this:

If ACL are feeling as benevolent as some on here feel they should be, then how about offering the Ricoh to Coventry RFC on a cost only basis. The 'egg chasers' are as close to the RFU Premiership as CCFC are to the FA Premiership. In contrast to CCFC, the RFC actually seem to have an ambitious board and the Premiership is their goal. Getting there will require far less investment than would getting CCFC to the Premiership, but the Butts would be totally inadequate.

So, let the rugger club play there on that basis until they reach the Premiership, which is likely to be long before SISU build a new stadium.

And for the F&B obsessives, I would guess that a rugger crowd would consume far more pints of beer than an equivalent crowd at a soccer match.

 

[shmmeee]

Call me old fashioned if you will, but I like my football grounds to be centred around football.

Self-interested? yep, I'm a Coventry fan!

But all this diversification concerns me that it means the club forgets the essence of what it is anyway, and to regain that it needs a strong sense of place regardless.

I think you're old fashioned.

The Ricoh has many purposes and routes to raising the profile of the city, one of which is a base for a successful football team.

Besides, where do you end "The Ricoh"? I believe it was you saying that football clubs aren't responsible for regeneration projects

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Indeed. Split it off, let whoever do everything else.

Never had a problem with that!

 

[blend]

But that isn't going to happen is it, so the only other solutions are build a new ground or the Arena is sold to the club.

She said it isn't going to happen, that isn't the same as it isn't going to happen. It was a very public and deliberately times statement, to that effect a very clever one as she has us all at it! Who cares what she says anymore, I couldn't care less. Her statements form part of a very calculated web of deceit and for that reason I pay no attention to them, other than to realise why they are said.

Of course she's not going to say 'Yeah we'll go back to the Ricoh and pay you rent.' At some point this may become her only option. I think it is the only realistic possibility. Hopefully, at some point she will too.

 

[torchomatic]

ACL is a very viable business and they have a long lease on the Stadia, Selling the Ricoh who have a detrimental effect
on ACL so of course ACL should be well Compensated.

Nice press release.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[lapsed_skyblue]

JS said that she would only come back to the Ricoh if they own the freehold but, if CCC concede that they are prepared to sell, I suspect that she will up the stakes again and say that she must also own ACL. Otherwise she will still be a tenant of a site she owns.
JS will play her cards one at a time.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

She said it isn't going to happen, that isn't the same as it isn't going to happen. It was a very public and deliberately times statement, to that effect a very clever one as she has us all at it! Who cares what she says anymore, I couldn't care less. Her statements form part of a very calculated web of deceit and for that reason I pay no attention to them, other than to realise why they are said.

Of course she's not going to say 'Yeah we'll go back to the Ricoh and pay you rent.' At some point this may become her only option. I think it is the only realistic possibility. Hopefully, at some point she will too.

Can't see SISU returning as Tenants...

 

[Jack Griffin]

Fair play to ACL if they've increased turnover by nearly 100% (or more if you consider that the club is now gone). Some of it is based on enquiries but I can't imagine ACL would forecast on the basis of something that wasn't likely to come to fruition.

I'm interested to see what the increased turnover is made up of.

Well, all Saturdays are free now.

 

[James Smith]

Then surely if they love CCFC so much they could offer them the same deal, as I have said on other threads this would make them come out smelling with roses wouldn't it and you couldn't really argue SISU's side much?

Because Joy has said she won't allow our club to come back to the Ricoh unless we're owners and so in Northampton we would stay, even with a seriously good offer like that. I get the feeling The Lady Is Not For Turning.

 

[James Smith]

I said the FREEHOLD should be sold to the CLUB for the exact amount of money the CCC has pumped into the Ricoh project over time.
I never (in this thread) discussed selling the ACL to the club ... but over time that would be ideal.

If the club returned to the Ricoh rent-free, only paying the matchday costs and received ACL's share of matchday F/B - that could maybe be acceptable to sisu. I don't know.
I only want the club back in the city - preferbly the Ricoh, but a ne build-for-purpose stadium would be nice too.

But if the freehold is sold to SISU then it won't get any revenues for 40+ years from the stadium and will be renting from ACL again. This is not something Joy is keen on and she doesn't negotiate don't forget. They would need to buy ACL too and if ACL (and we only have the word of PWKH) can survive without the club then that I would suspect increases the value of ACL. If SISU bought ACL then they'd have all the revenue streams that the Ricoh makes but again they'd be tenants of the council and that isn't an option for Joy.

You're right in that something has to give but if ACL aren't bluffing then they aren't in dire straits they don't need the club. In that case we actually need them to continue to want to have the club back, and SISU should be starting dialogue. What worries me is if the Judicial Review Application Appeal goes in favour of the council and Joy/SISU still refuse to budge on coming back to the Ricoh unless they're freehold owners. ACL could decided that they've waited long enough and now is the time to move on and we have to hope that the new stadium is built quickly.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Question, what is the value of the freehold & ACL plus their lease combined?

Answer, a hell of a lot more than Joy will offer.

Sorry, but that is the way it is.

 

[James Smith]

I think some on here seem to think the value of the bricks / steel / mortar should include any value that ACL has built into it.

Nope but if the ACL claim is true (and we haven't seen any numbers to back that claim up) then the value of ACL has gone up a few bob if they can survive without us.

 

[James Smith]

'Independent evaluator'. Where do we find one of those?

Who picks him/her. Who pays for their time and expertise? Imagine the answer to these two questions will be key in determining what 'value' is put on the Ricoh. Is it just the stadium, the whole site, the freehold and/or ACL that needs to be valued?

Well the money from both sides could go into an Escrow account which an independent person maybe an someone from a large accountants or lawyers picks the firms and doesn't name them until their reports are done. All requests for info etc. go through the indie and they pass it on to ACL/CCC so that there isn't an opportunity for anyone to influence the firms. Just an idea.

 

[James Smith]

Heart starter! Where the Hell is the heart starter?
First OSB, now you -both agreeing with me on the same day.
It's a conspiracy.
WTF did I do wrong?

Around the city apparently see here http://startaheartcov.com/about.html the appeal says it is based in the Ricoh (and PWKH is involved keeping it on topic) so I assume they'd have one at the Ricoh.

 

[Hobo]

Nice press release.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 2

Nice cynicism!

 

[Hobo]

It s about time SISU laid their cards on the table.
Make an offer on a rental deal or an offer to buy!
Everyone has worked out the maths and it's cheaper than buying your own stadium and on top of that the land with commercial potential just isn't there!

Saying you have the finances and the vision isn't the same as delivering it Joy.