PKWH on CWR Shane O'Connor 23/10/2013 (1 Viewer)

[Nick]

It would be in their interests to block it within their territory.

Increasing the chances of it not happening and SISU returning to the Ricoh.

Why would it be in their interest if the Ricoh is better off now without the club? Surely if SISU were building an exhibition hall it would be competition but a football stadium?

 

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[fernandopartridge]

Just a thought, but if CCFC do build a new stadium surely that would open up to a 2 team City????

I hear the argument that we already struggle for crowds, even at the Ricoh but reading between the lines what else will the acutal pitch be used for????? Im also not suggesting that in my life time (Im still young) that it would be a fierce rivalry but I can see this happening. How???????

No, it wouldn't. One team in the city can barely survive, never mind two.

 

[torchomatic]

Why? CCC have said they don't need a football club so I presume the Ricoh will no longer be football stadium but just an exhibition and concert venue.

Just a thought, but if CCFC do build a new stadium surely that would open up to a 2 team City????

I hear the argument that we already struggle for crowds, even at the Ricoh but reading between the lines what else will the acutal pitch be used for????? Im also not suggesting that in my life time (Im still young) that it would be a fierce rivalry but I can see this happening. How???????

 

[Godiva]

Which they tried and failed to do in the past. They were happy to sell to anyone but SISU.

Ah, but that is only clear to us - the shitzu apologists.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Another sisu disguise ?

No, I am sure OSB will tell you this but it's normal practice (and should have been the case with CCFC's previous structure) to separate the company holding the lease from that which is paying the players and transfer fees etc.

 

[Nick]

Just a thought, but if CCFC do build a new stadium surely that would open up to a 2 team City????

I hear the argument that we already struggle for crowds, even at the Ricoh but reading between the lines what else will the acutal pitch be used for????? Im also not suggesting that in my life time (Im still young) that it would be a fierce rivalry but I can see this happening. How???????

What other team will play at the Ricoh? Surely if it was non league they wouldn't be able to afford the rent / match costs and the other option is to move a club in?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

joys already admited that the club wont own the ground should sh itsu buy it.

Put some clauses on the deal which mean the club has to own it.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

It isn't going to happen because Joy says so? By that logic, the sale won't happen because CCC say so (at Joy's price) and the new stadium won't happen because planning law says so.

Something's got to give here. As fans that should be our preferred option IMO as it's the best for the club.

And Joy might accept a deal where the club have access to revenue and a very long lease at virtually nothing. That adds value to the club, even if not as much as the whole complex, and might enable a return on her investment. One, you might argue, she has actually earned through good negotiation.

Why should there a reason to doubt this, Joy has said that they will build a new stadium if they can't get their hands on the Ricoh so why after everything that has been said would Joy then change her mind and go back to being a tennant?

 

[mrbluesky87]

Why? CCC have said they don't need a football club so I presume the Ricoh will no longer be football stadium but just an exhibition and concert venue.

So Torch, your a high flying businessman, would let the stadia rot which effectively would happen if just using it for a few concerts every year and lets face it our Rugby team are no Leicester Tigers or are you suggesting they would re-design the stadia i.e. Put a roof over it so it effectively becomes a big exhibition hall????

 

[Nick]

Maybe ACL have a plan for that, they are the ones saying they don't need the club?

 

[mrbluesky87]

What other team will play at the Ricoh? Surely if it was non league they wouldn't be able to afford the rent / match costs and the other option is to move a club in?

Nick, your missing the point though, if ACL/CCC are right in that they will survive without CCFC why not offer it to a non-league team (new or established) for free on the basis that when they start climbing the league rent agreements are discussed etc.

I am not advocating a new team either, im just putting out there.

 

[Nick]

Nick, your missing the point though, if ACL/CCC are right in that they will survive without CCFC why not offer it to a non-league team (new or established) for free on the basis that when they start climbing the league rent agreements are discussed etc.

I am not advocating a new team either, im just putting out there.

Then surely if they love CCFC so much they could offer them the same deal, as I have said on other threads this would make them come out smelling with roses wouldn't it and you couldn't really argue SISU's side much?

 

[torchomatic]

But it won't rot, will it? Lucas told us yesterday that the Ricoh is a land of milk and honey. And I'm not suggesting they do anything with it, I'm sure they will do what they have to do. SISU have said they want a new stadium and ACL have said they can live without us so maybe club and stadium should finally go their separate ways. Everyone would be happy, wouldn't they? SISU get their income, fans won't have SISU owning the Ricoh and the stadium will be a cash cow for CCC.

So Torch, your a high flying businessman, would let the stadia rot which effectively would happen if just using it for a few concerts every year and lets face it our Rugby team are no Leicester Tigers or are you suggesting they would re-design the stadia i.e. Put a roof over it so it effectively becomes a big exhibition hall????

 

[Astute]

For once this has been an interesting read.

It has shown that on here we have a couple of absolute anti ACL posters. So refinancing was a bail out? A bail out that reduced costs and also created a surpluss without putting any money in? I have also seen a few posters that normally lean towards SISU more than ACL understand what has and is going on. This is the idea of a debate and understanding the latest information.

So there is more going on at the Ricoh. A lot of it will be returning customers as well as new ones. This is bad news for SISU. A valuation of a company is more than just the value of properties held. It is also down to profit raised amongst others. The more business that ACL brings in the more valuable it becomes. To me this is the reason SISU wanted the Ricoh. So yes it is a place for a football team to play but the complex can make real money. Much more than a 25m ground could ever do. And we are supposed to believe that SISU only want the Ricoh for the pie money when they wouldn't get it with the freehold.

So a few think that SISU want the Ricoh so they won't be tenants? If they don't also get the leasehold they would be tenants in an arena they own :thinking about:

 

[Nick]

But it won't rot, will it? Lucas told us yesterday that the Ricoh is a land of milk and honey. And I'm not suggesting they do anything with it, I'm sure they will do what they have to do. SISU have said they want a new stadium and ACL have said they can live without us so maybe club and stadium should finally go their separate ways. Everyone would be happy, wouldn't they? SISU get their income, fans won't have SISU owning the Ricoh and the stadium will be a cash cow for CCC.

People won't be happy as we would still be paying rent in some aspect to SISU (even though they want us to rent off the council). It would be good to know how many other clubs own their ground in a side business and pay rent.

I know a few business owners who own the property themselves but then rent it to their business, OSB will obviously know why they do it but surely it is sort of the same thing?

 

[mrbluesky87]

Then surely if they love CCFC so much they could offer them the same deal, as I have said on other threads this would make them come out smelling with roses wouldn't it and you couldn't really argue SISU's side much?

100% with you on this, an I said on a thread many moons ago they should offer it free however hasnt Joy stated that they will only return if owned????

 

[Nick]

100% with you on this, an I said on a thread many moons ago they should offer it free however hasnt Joy stated that they will only return if owned????

What about if the council came out and said "You can play here rent free with just matchday costs with the same F and B deal as at Northampton (so ACL still make some off pies) while you build your stadium"

You couldn't really argue with that could you? ACL would surely still be better off than they are without us as they get some from pies and the casino etc would be happier?

 

[mrbluesky87]

What about if the council came out and said "You can play here rent free with just matchday costs with the same F and B deal as at Northampton (so ACL still make some off pies) while you build your stadium"

You couldn't really argue with that could you? ACL would surely still be better off than they are without us as they get some from pies and the casino etc would be happier?

Couldnt agree more, we all over analyse things far too much when the simple solution is their. I just wish somebody would bloody offer it.

 

[Nick]

If the council and ACL love the club then surely that would be a win win if they are doing well? At least if they offered it then when SISU turn it down it can only make them look bad.

 

[ohitsaidwalker king power]

If that turns out to be the case - and it certainly looks that way - then do you think the CCC would object to sisu building a new stadium?

I guess Otium would have to apply for planning permission to establish the answer... we all await the planning application... and we wait.. and we wait....

 

[ohitsaidwalker king power]

What about if the council came out and said "You can play here rent free with just matchday costs with the same F and B deal as at Northampton (so ACL still make some off pies) while you build your stadium"

You couldn't really argue with that could you? ACL would surely still be better off than they are without us as they get some from pies and the casino etc would be happier?

Perfect solution Nick-... until you factor in Otiums freehold or forget it stance...and so now the roadblock is?

 

[SkyBlueCharlie]

No, I am sure OSB will tell you this but it's normal practice (and should have been the case with CCFC's previous structure) to separate the company holding the lease from that which is paying the players and transfer fees etc.

But isn't that what Mr Fisher said we had? They had cleaned up the mess so that the lease etc. was in CCFC Ltd. and the players, 'golden share etc. were in CCFCH. Now, as I understand it they have put everything back into one company Otium. So if model A was the best business case (and I agree with OSB that is standard practice) why have we reverted to model B?

 

[dongonzalos]

Why would it be in their interest if the Ricoh is better off now without the club? Surely if SISU were building an exhibition hall it would be competition but a football stadium?

To build a stadium is a massive project that has massive impact on the local community. Some positive some negative. They would need to be happy that the negative impacts it has are justifiable and outweighed by the positive ones.

Could the football club use the stadium already there.... Yes
Can they justify the negative impact of building a massive infrastructure, questionable.

Can they trust the business acronym of the company proposing to build the stadium that it will happen and will be a confusing long term success that will justify the negative impacts, questionable.

I think if the council wanted an excuse to say no they have plenty.

Never mind the obvious thought that they don't trust SISU and another stadium reduces the chance of the Ricoh and Coventry City FC getting reunited. Which apart from financial implications is what the council would want

 

[mrbluesky87]

If the council and ACL love the club then surely that would be a win win if they are doing well? At least if they offered it then when SISU turn it down it can only make them look bad.

It would be good if anyone gets the chance, to ask this question to both ACL/CCC in regards to offering it and SISU/OTIUM in regards to an acceptance, not that it would attract a straight answer.

 

[Nick]

Perfect solution Nick-... until you factor in Otiums freehold or forget it stance...and so now the roadblock is?

In which case I don't think ACL could have done any more than free IF they are serious about building this new stadium as it would make SISU more money in ticket sales by being local to go towards the new stadium.

 

[Nick]

To build a stadium is a massive project that has massive impact on the local community. Some positive some negative. They would need to be happy that the negative impacts it has are justifiable and outweighed by the positive ones.

Could the football club use the stadium already there.... Yes
Can they justify the negative impact of building a massive infrastructure, questionable.

Can they trust the business acronym of the company proposing to build the stadium that it will happen and will be a confusing long term success that will justify the negative impacts, questionable.

I think if the council wanted an excuse to say no they have plenty.

Never mind the obvious thought that they don't trust SISU and another stadium reduces the chance of the Ricoh and Coventry City FC getting reunited. Which apart from financial implications is what the council would want

Surely they couldn't use the already another stadium in town excuse as they own it?

 

[skybluefred]

That's a deeply unpleasant thought in itself isn't it, that the purpose of a football ground is no longer as a football ground.

You should direct that comment to the people who will not bring CCFC back to it's rightful home.That's sisu & Seppalla
by the way.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Forget selling it.

As fans we should be behind a low rent, long term lease solution. With access to revenues from football.

All we should care about is success for the club, neither the freehold nor a high rent benefit the club, but rather third parties.

100% spot on shmmeee and I believe that once the JR is over and they're 'allowed to talk', CCC/ACL will formally make such an offer to SISU. That will finally put every last ball in SISU's court.

Regarding sale of the freehold to SISU, it will never, ever happen. Talk of £25m offers is plain daft:

Extract from 'A Prison of Measured Time' 27/09/13:

In any case, 100% ownership of the freehold on the Ricoh could be problematic for any purchaser, as ACL currently hold a lease to manage the whole of the site that has some 43 years still to run. Compensation for loss of earnings would be substantial and negotiations between the two organisations are unlikely to be starting from a particularly positive position. The construction costs totalled £118 million and as land values increase rather than depreciate, any bid would, under normal circumstances, have to allow for inflation. If it was even possible for an entity to purchase both the freehold and cancel the lease, the value of ACL would also have to be considered, a company with a strong portfolio of assets that supports a Balance Sheet value of around £7 million. There is also the need to account for the recently formed joint venture between ACL and Compass Contract Services UK Ltd that runs the catering side of the business, IEC Experience Ltd. This would, in my opinion, suggest a valuation somewhere in the region of between £120 to £160 million would represent fair market rates base solely on book values, but this is unlikely to be met of course. It is likely that the valuation put on the freehold by the hedge fund will be considerably lower. SISU are used to purchasing distressed companies well under market value. How much would the Council be allowed to write off on the investment before serious questions would be raised by those in opposition and by the tax payers of the City?

 

[Warwickhunt]

If as he says they do not need CCFC and they have made up the 1.25 million hole + in the budget thats fine so why did'nt they do that when CCFC were at the Ricoh and make a shilt load of profit? instead of what the last set of accounts showed? They are not going to make anything from the Football Arena with no football so they need to expand the catering conference facility and expand the Hotel.

 

[fernandopartridge]

But isn't that what Mr Fisher said we had? They had cleaned up the mess so that the lease etc. was in CCFC Ltd. and the players, 'golden share etc. were in CCFCH. Now, as I understand it they have put everything back into one company Otium. So if model A was the best business case (and I agree with OSB that is standard practice) why have we reverted to model B?

I don't think we necessarily have? Have we? Otium haven't got a lease for the Ricoh.

We don't know which of the CCFC group has made the deal with NTFC. I think it's unlikely to be Otium but I don't know.

 

[Nick]

If as he says they do not need CCFC and they have made up the 1.25 million hole + in the budget thats fine so why did'nt they do that when CCFC were at the Ricoh and make a shilt load of profit? instead of what the last set of accounts showed? They are not going to make anything from the Football Arena with no football so they need to expand the catering conference facility and expand the Hotel.

The only thing I can think of is by getting business that they couldn't before due to football which would be on a couple of Saturdays a month wouldn't it during the season?

 

[fernandopartridge]

100% spot on shmmeee and I believe that once the JR is over and they're 'allowed to talk', CCC/ACL will formally make such an offer to SISU. That will finally put every last ball in SISU's court.

Regarding sale of the freehold to SISU, it will never, ever happen. Talk of £25m offers is plain daft:

Extract from 'A Prison of Measured Time' 27/09/13:

In any case, 100% ownership of the freehold on the Ricoh could be problematic for any purchaser, as ACL currently hold a lease to manage the whole of the site that has some 43 years still to run. Compensation for loss of earnings would be substantial and negotiations between the two organisations are unlikely to be starting from a particularly positive position. The construction costs totalled £118 million and as land values increase rather than depreciate, any bid would, under normal circumstances, have to allow for inflation. If it was even possible for an entity to purchase both the freehold and cancel the lease, the value of ACL would also have to be considered, a company with a strong portfolio of assets that supports a Balance Sheet value of around £7 million. There is also the need to account for the recently formed joint venture between ACL and Compass Contract Services UK Ltd that runs the catering side of the business, IEC Experience Ltd. This would, in my opinion, suggest a valuation somewhere in the region of between £120 to £160 million would represent fair market rates base solely on book values, but this is unlikely to be met of course. It is likely that the valuation put on the freehold by the hedge fund will be considerably lower. SISU are used to purchasing distressed companies well under market value. How much would the Council be allowed to write off on the investment before serious questions would be raised by those in opposition and by the tax payers of the City?

Was that blog written by an expert in valuing non standard commercial property?

 

[Nick]

100% spot on shmmeee and I believe that once the JR is over and they're 'allowed to talk', CCC/ACL will formally make such an offer to SISU. That will finally put every last ball in SISU's court.

Regarding sale of the freehold to SISU, it will never, ever happen. Talk of £25m offers is plain daft:

Extract from 'A Prison of Measured Time' 27/09/13:

In any case, 100% ownership of the freehold on the Ricoh could be problematic for any purchaser, as ACL currently hold a lease to manage the whole of the site that has some 43 years still to run. Compensation for loss of earnings would be substantial and negotiations between the two organisations are unlikely to be starting from a particularly positive position. The construction costs totalled £118 million and as land values increase rather than depreciate, any bid would, under normal circumstances, have to allow for inflation. If it was even possible for an entity to purchase both the freehold and cancel the lease, the value of ACL would also have to be considered, a company with a strong portfolio of assets that supports a Balance Sheet value of around £7 million. There is also the need to account for the recently formed joint venture between ACL and Compass Contract Services UK Ltd that runs the catering side of the business, IEC Experience Ltd. This would, in my opinion, suggest a valuation somewhere in the region of between £120 to £160 million would represent fair market rates base solely on book values, but this is unlikely to be met of course. It is likely that the valuation put on the freehold by the hedge fund will be considerably lower. SISU are used to purchasing distressed companies well under market value. How much would the Council be allowed to write off on the investment before serious questions would be raised by those in opposition and by the tax payers of the City?

Surely the best way is to just get 3 independent valuations from specialist companies and then take the average to get a fair value?

 

[Houdi]

Don't see why they should. They say two things: the Ricoh can survive without the Club and they "love" CCFC. So, why on earth should they object to the Club coming back to the City where it belongs?

Probably because both Fisher and Seppala have both said, that they don't wish to deal with CCC. But its ok as they have both stated their wish to build a new stadium on the outskirts of the City. If Fisher says they intend to build a new stadium, who are we to doubt him.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Surely the best way is to just get 3 independent valuations from specialist companies and then take the average to get a fair value?

I think some on here seem to think the value of the bricks / steel / mortar should include any value that ACL has built into it.