Portsmouth- what on earth (42 Viewers)

oldskyblue58 · Feb 16, 2012

I understand your point Real and agree to a point ............

But ...............so while we struggle with getting our own financial affairs in order we accept that we go down and make it even harder for ourselves in doing so .............. but teams that sign players way beyond their means stay up in a false position based on finance and shaft everyone they owe money to except football debts and stay up on costs they never could fund? They get their points based on costs it is impossible for them to pay, yes it would be right to stay up based on points but that works if it is a level playing field which it is not.

Jack Griffin · Feb 16, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
At least, for now anyway, we don't have the taxman banging on the door

But to be fair that was because SISU paid a £5 milion pound tax bill when they took over.

Jack Griffin · Feb 16, 2012

Real said:
I don't want City to stay up due to another clubs misfortune, no matter how badly the club has been run. If we are incapable of surviving in a league with as many teams as the Championship has without the need for another club to go to the wall or have points deducted then we don't deserve to stay up. And if we do stay up as a result of Pompey's misfortune, we are surely only delaying the inevitable by another season?

Nonsense, you want us to go down because we cut costs & another club stay up after being reckless with their spending. Sorry mate, but I find that attitide uttely without merit.

EleanorRigby · Feb 16, 2012

This preferencial status was discussed at length on Talk Sport yesterday on the Richard Keys slot. Ex-rugby star Brian Moore, a lawyer explained that football debts being preferential would be seen as reasonable because football is that businesses only income some thing like that., what he said made sense but hard to relay it on here.
Moore spoke about this whole scenerio and the Rangers issue and said these football clubs are only important to a reletive few. £75million+ missing from the HMRC accounts affects NHS, schools, armed forces etc,etc.

@richh87 · Feb 16, 2012

Real said:
I don't want City to stay up due to another clubs misfortune, no matter how badly the club has been run. If we are incapable of surviving in a league with as many teams as the Championship has without the need for another club to go to the wall or have points deducted then we don't deserve to stay up. And if we do stay up as a result of Pompey's misfortune, we are surely only delaying the inevitable by another season?

We're only going down due to our own misfortune of having SISU as owners. Pompey's finances are far far worse yet they pay higher wages; so who deserves relegation?

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

Real said:
I don't want City to stay up due to another clubs misfortune, no matter how badly the club has been run. If we are incapable of surviving in a league with as many teams as the Championship has without the need for another club to go to the wall or have points deducted then we don't deserve to stay up. And if we do stay up as a result of Pompey's misfortune, we are surely only delaying the inevitable by another season?

So you think it is fair to sign players you can't afford to buy, and sign players they can't afford the wages for? Every two years take a point hit that is less than the extra points they get each season from players they should not have.

It should be admin and a points loss enough to make sure they go down. Otherwise clubs might see that cheats can prosper.

ashbyjan · Feb 16, 2012

I had some sympathy with the Portsmouth fans after all we weren't complaining when Richardson signed Robbie Keane for £6m etc - you basically trust those running the club to be doing it correctly. However everyone in football has learned the hard way most owners are useless/clueless/bent/dishonest/crooks and Portsmouth are no exception (except honest taxpaying 'arry and Mandyprick of course). Currently they are still paying players far more than rival clubs such as ourselves, who with SISU in charge have slashed costs. They have players like Kitson on £20k a week and I would venture that their total wage bill will be higher than ours. Now their idiot manager is winging and asking for more players - unbelievable - pay off some creditors first then look at that second, in the meantime do what we have to do and play kids. Football is not like any other business - it is totally barking mad.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 16, 2012

Jack Griffin said:
But to be fair that was because SISU paid a £5 milion pound tax bill when they took over.

Then good on them for doing so.

torchomatic · Feb 16, 2012

Having SISU as owners is a double-edged sword as far as I'm concerned on one hand they saved us, invested in the squad and improvements at Ryton and have kept us going for four years without fear of Administration. They were absolutely right to cut costs after the Richardson Years, but unfortunately they have cut too much, which is why we find ourselves in the bottom three.

I woud still be in our position though rather than that of Pompey.

@richh87 said:
We're only going down due to our own misfortune of having SISU as owners. Pompey's finances are far far worse yet they pay higher wages; so who deserves relegation?

Clive Plattini · Feb 16, 2012

Everyone talks about Portsmouth's misfortune. It's not misfortune, it's mismanagement. Shame on the Football League for clearly failing to do a fit and proper person investigation on Antinov. If Portsmouth can't afford to pay players then they deserve to be penalised.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 16, 2012

Clive Plattini said:
Everyone talks about Portsmouth's misfortune. It's not misfortune, it's mismanagement. Shame on the Football League for clearly failing to do a fit and proper person investigation on Antinov. If Portsmouth can't afford to pay players then they deserve to be penalised.

The Football League came out and said they were 'misled' by Antonov over the fit and proper persons' test. Nonsense-a pathetic attempt at trying to cover up their own incompetence.

ccfcway · Feb 16, 2012

OyJimmy said:
Not sure they can pay the players before HMRC. As I understand it because HMRC got in there first they may have to now pay HMRC. But if they pay HMRC then their chances of avoiding liquidation lessen.

They may well be liquidated tomorrow. Anyone know the Odds the bookies are giving on this?

Dunno, but iF was pompy, Id be betting on it

That way, if you go under, you have the cash to start again

ccfcway · Feb 16, 2012

Astute said:
The taxman will get his cash. They will challenge soccer first debts if needed, but their players will go for a few quid. They will have to sell and then beg some loans if they survive.

OR, do as we have had to, and play some of that 20 man academy they have !!

Thomas
Christie
Cameron
Bigi
Clarke
Jeffers
Ruffles

Despite the potential of how good they could be, they would be no-where near the 1st team if we had some money this season...

Jack Griffin · Feb 16, 2012

Dunno, Cameron & Clarke played in previous seasons, I expected Clarke to be our regular right back this season, but injury prevented that.
Cameron has taken a bit of a step back this season, but good option for bench .
It was the right time for Christie & Thomas to break through, but they should have been eased in a lot more gently, they've done well considering.
Bigi was never really ready for more than a few sub appearances this year & the rest shouldn't really even be on the bench anything like as often as they are.

The line between success & failure is so fine..

BTW, I recollect how often in previous seasons posters used to shout, try the kids, satisfied now guys?

wingy · Feb 16, 2012

EleanorRigby said:
Big day for Pompey tomorrow, a winding up order is not out of the question. The various finance experts seem to think it is 50-50. How do we fare if that happened and the points expunged and would it still be 3 down ?

Good point ER.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 16, 2012

wingy said:
Good point ER.

Usual practice when things like this have happened in the Conference/SPL is that all results are struck from the record, and that one less team gets relegated. The effect this would have on the bottom 5 would be:
Cov-No change
Bristol C- minus 1
Donny-No change
Forest-No change
Millwall- minus 3

It's also well worth noting that Pompey's last game is Forest at home...

oldskyblue58 · Feb 16, 2012

Would confirm what BSB says. points expunged and 1 less relegation place

its covered by FL rule 12.2.1

http://www.football-league.co.uk/regulations/20110629/section-3-the-league_2293633_2125717

hughescov · Feb 16, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
Would confirm what BSB says. points expunged and 1 less relegation place

its covered by FL rule 12.2.1

http://www.football-league.co.uk/regulations/20110629/section-3-the-league_2293633_2125717

So does that mean that each league below would also relegate one club less to balance out? I can't get my head around it :facepalm:

oldskyblue58 · Feb 16, 2012

All clubs are supposed to report any HMRC payment defaults within 2 days of the default and a default should place that club under a transfer embargo, and the FL could require the club to work to a budget. Also the FL has the power to contact HMRC direct to monitor if payments are being made. The get out is if the club disputes the HMRC amount the FL do not class it as a valid debt until it is agreed - surely the wages department at a club should be calculating the PAYE/NI properly ? (that rule needs improving). They have the rules but dont damn well use them - letting clubs ride rough shod or find loop holes

Just as an aside - Assignment of FL prize money to any one is reportable to the League and results in a transfer embargo. League will not pay such prize money to any third party. So if we apparently mortgaged our share as was reported in CT etc how come we were not under a transfer embargo ?

oldskyblue58 · Feb 16, 2012

hughescov said:
So does that mean that each league below would also relegate one club less to balance out? I can't get my head around it :facepalm:

no it doesnt - i think it means that an extra club would come into League 2.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 16, 2012

hughescov said:
So does that mean that each league below would also relegate one club less to balance out? I can't get my head around it :facepalm:

If you think about it, having one less club relegated from the Championship removes the need to reshuffle any of the lower leagues to compensate-you're still losing 6 clubs and replacing them with 6 clubs. (3 promoted, 2 relegated, one bust replaced by 3 relegated, 3 promoted).

Grendel · Feb 16, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Usual practice when things like this have happened in the Conference/SPL is that all results are struck from the record, and that one less team gets relegated. The effect this would have on the bottom 5 would be:
Cov-No change
Bristol C- minus 1
Donny-No change
Forest-No change
Millwall- minus 3

It's also well worth noting that Pompey's last game is Forest at home...

Peterborough would lose 3 points taking them to 31 and Ipswich 6 points also taking them to 31. Would certainly make life interesting. Peterborough are on the slide so they would suddenly look vulnerable.

ccfcway · Feb 16, 2012

pompy reporting tonight they cant afford a scan on Liam Lawrance who is injured.

Watch them parade Ricardo Fuller tomorrow

Stevec189 · Feb 16, 2012

Basically Pompey are cheating. They have been caught and the punishment for cheating is a 10 point deduction. No need to feel guilty or saying we don't deserve to stay up if because of another teams failings. They have not failed - they have cheated. As a tax payer I find it very offensive. Same with Rangers. PUSB

thegameaintstraight · Feb 17, 2012

Just come across this and although it relates to their 2010 Administration it seems they havent changed much. Its a good read.

"With 54 clubs having collapsed into insolvency since English football's boom began with the Premier League breakaway in 1992, the eye becomes practised at picking out the most shameful of a club's bad debts. There it was, as ever, on page 45 of the administrator's report issued yesterday itemising bust Portsmouth's £122.8m debts: St John Ambulance, of Worthy Lane in Hampshire, owed £2,702.

St John, along with schools, hospitals, the local ambulance service, HM Revenue and Customs and scores of small businesses in a total of £92.7m creditors left high and dry, will receive a fraction of what they are owed in any deal the administrator, Andrew Andronikou of Hacker Young, strikes with a new buyer. By hideous contrast, clubs owed transfer fees, and players due millionaires' pay packets, must be paid in full, according to Premier League and Football League rules, if Portsmouth are to continue as a club in either league.

That is the nature of the "football creditors" rule, whose self-regarding rationale is that it would represent unfair competition if clubs signed players they could not afford, achieved success like Pompey did, and were then allowed not to pay them.

But while Portsmouth were overspending on players, making losses of £23.5m in the year to May 2007, £17m in the following FA Cup winning season, and, now revealed by Andronikou, £13m in 2009, they were also taking on commitments to the tax authorities, the Scout Association of Guernsey (listed as owed £697), even Pompey's own supporters' club (owed £300), which they will now not need to pay in full.

Andronikou, who said he agrees with Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs' vehement objection to this rule, said in his report: "The Premier League has developed an insolvency policy. This policy protects football related creditors as they are required to be paid in full but may allow non-football related creditors to be compromised."

The list of "ordinary" creditors whose debts a new Portsmouth buyer can "compromise" runs to 15 closely typed pages. HMRC's £17.1m is the largest debt; the tax authorities are particularly bitter about the football creditors' rule because theirs is largely unpaid PAYE tax due on the millionaire players' wages which have to be paid in full.

Among the players owed lump sums by Portsmouth – leaving aside the ongoing wage bill of around £1.2m a month, which Andronikou is paying the current squad – are several who have not worn a Pompey shirt for some time. Peter Crouch, now at Spurs under his former Portsmouth manager Harry Redknapp, is owed £250,000. Glen Johnson, a Liverpool player since last July, must be paid £235,000; Silvain Distin, who left for Everton last summer, is due £300,000.

Nine current and former players are also owed a total £3m for image rights, some to companies registered in tax havens, such as the British Virgin Islands (Niko Kranjcar), and Delaware, USA (Lassana Diarra). Altogether 29 current and former players are owed £4.7m, which must be paid in full if Portsmouth are to compete in the Football League, while ordinary creditors' debts can be slashed to a proportion Andronikou has not yet specified.

Other clubs are still owed a total of £17.3m in transfer fee instalments, which again must be settled in full, some for originally signing players who have long since left. Chelsea are still owed £1m from when Portsmouth signed the now departed Johnson in 2007, Udinese £3.3m for Sulley Muntari, whom Pompey bought in May 2007 and sold to Internazionale a year later. The list, running alphabetically from Belhadj to Yebda, goes on, through 15 players with instalments still to be paid.

Compared with those galactic figures for football trading and wages, the list of unsecured "ordinary" creditors, who must take a hit, is a painful litany of the inexcusably unpaid. Here is the South Central ambulance service, owed £19,535.39, Portsmouth city council, £28,690 down in rates, Portsmouth Students' Union, owed £2,955. A number of schools are owed significant sums, apparently for the hire of sports facilities, including Cowplain Community School in Waterlooville, with £14,743.54 outstanding, the Priory Community Sports Centre in Southsea, owed £11,000, and King Edward School in Southampton, who will have to accept a fraction of a £41,714.01 bill the Premier League club ran up with them.

Andronikou's report confirms that Pompey's owner, Balram Chainrai, has mortgages over Fratton Park and other club assets for £14.2m in loans still outstanding to his company, Portpin, which gives him priority. The Premier and Football League rules require 75% of the unsecured, "ordinary" creditors, to whom Portsmouth owe £92.7m in total, including £9.8m to 27 football agents, to vote in favour of a settlement via a company voluntary arrangement.

HMRC can be expected, as ever, to vote against any which demands of them a cut in what they are owed and, if no CVA is agreed, as happened at Leeds, the League is likely to impose a further 15-point penalty.

Lord Mawhinney, who retired as the Football League's chairman last month, presided over this "football creditors" rule during his seven years in charge, but when he left, he wrote to all 72 clubs asking them to consider its morality.

"Talking about the moral strength of the [Football League] brand," he wrote, "are we all comfortable that, in financial and debt terms, we treat football clubs more favourably than we do our local communities and their businesses, other taxpayers (to whom we have a civic responsibility) or St John Ambulance? That is for you to decide."

So far there is no sign of clubs reconsidering. The Premier League's chief executive, Richard Scudamore, has said the rule must be followed in Portsmouth's case and he argues that Pompey's collapse reflects no wider shame on his glittering league. There is, though, no sporting nobility in paying long departed players millions in full, while St John Ambulance must take another hit from this awful mismanagement of football's boom.

Portsmouth save their money for millionaires while paupers go unpaid | David Conn | Sport | The Guardian

On another note, I know the school they are talking about - it looks like it will have to put off the repairs to the building which is leaking now. Well done Storey, well done Pompey, well done FA.

I love the fact that the football players are effectively getting a tax break as HMRC will not recover the tax it is owed on their wages whilst the players get paid in full.

Unbelievable."

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 17, 2012

thegameaintstraight said:
Just come across this and although it relates to their 2010 Administration it seems they havent changed much. Its a good read.

"With 54 clubs having collapsed into insolvency since English football's boom began with the Premier League breakaway in 1992, the eye becomes practised at picking out the most shameful of a club's bad debts. There it was, as ever, on page 45 of the administrator's report issued yesterday itemising bust Portsmouth's £122.8m debts: St John Ambulance, of Worthy Lane in Hampshire, owed £2,702.

St John, along with schools, hospitals, the local ambulance service, HM Revenue and Customs and scores of small businesses in a total of £92.7m creditors left high and dry, will receive a fraction of what they are owed in any deal the administrator, Andrew Andronikou of Hacker Young, strikes with a new buyer. By hideous contrast, clubs owed transfer fees, and players due millionaires' pay packets, must be paid in full, according to Premier League and Football League rules, if Portsmouth are to continue as a club in either league.

That is the nature of the "football creditors" rule, whose self-regarding rationale is that it would represent unfair competition if clubs signed players they could not afford, achieved success like Pompey did, and were then allowed not to pay them.

But while Portsmouth were overspending on players, making losses of £23.5m in the year to May 2007, £17m in the following FA Cup winning season, and, now revealed by Andronikou, £13m in 2009, they were also taking on commitments to the tax authorities, the Scout Association of Guernsey (listed as owed £697), even Pompey's own supporters' club (owed £300), which they will now not need to pay in full.

Andronikou, who said he agrees with Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs' vehement objection to this rule, said in his report: "The Premier League has developed an insolvency policy. This policy protects football related creditors as they are required to be paid in full but may allow non-football related creditors to be compromised."

The list of "ordinary" creditors whose debts a new Portsmouth buyer can "compromise" runs to 15 closely typed pages. HMRC's £17.1m is the largest debt; the tax authorities are particularly bitter about the football creditors' rule because theirs is largely unpaid PAYE tax due on the millionaire players' wages which have to be paid in full.

Among the players owed lump sums by Portsmouth – leaving aside the ongoing wage bill of around £1.2m a month, which Andronikou is paying the current squad – are several who have not worn a Pompey shirt for some time. Peter Crouch, now at Spurs under his former Portsmouth manager Harry Redknapp, is owed £250,000. Glen Johnson, a Liverpool player since last July, must be paid £235,000; Silvain Distin, who left for Everton last summer, is due £300,000.

Nine current and former players are also owed a total £3m for image rights, some to companies registered in tax havens, such as the British Virgin Islands (Niko Kranjcar), and Delaware, USA (Lassana Diarra). Altogether 29 current and former players are owed £4.7m, which must be paid in full if Portsmouth are to compete in the Football League, while ordinary creditors' debts can be slashed to a proportion Andronikou has not yet specified.

Other clubs are still owed a total of £17.3m in transfer fee instalments, which again must be settled in full, some for originally signing players who have long since left. Chelsea are still owed £1m from when Portsmouth signed the now departed Johnson in 2007, Udinese £3.3m for Sulley Muntari, whom Pompey bought in May 2007 and sold to Internazionale a year later. The list, running alphabetically from Belhadj to Yebda, goes on, through 15 players with instalments still to be paid.

Compared with those galactic figures for football trading and wages, the list of unsecured "ordinary" creditors, who must take a hit, is a painful litany of the inexcusably unpaid. Here is the South Central ambulance service, owed £19,535.39, Portsmouth city council, £28,690 down in rates, Portsmouth Students' Union, owed £2,955. A number of schools are owed significant sums, apparently for the hire of sports facilities, including Cowplain Community School in Waterlooville, with £14,743.54 outstanding, the Priory Community Sports Centre in Southsea, owed £11,000, and King Edward School in Southampton, who will have to accept a fraction of a £41,714.01 bill the Premier League club ran up with them.

Andronikou's report confirms that Pompey's owner, Balram Chainrai, has mortgages over Fratton Park and other club assets for £14.2m in loans still outstanding to his company, Portpin, which gives him priority. The Premier and Football League rules require 75% of the unsecured, "ordinary" creditors, to whom Portsmouth owe £92.7m in total, including £9.8m to 27 football agents, to vote in favour of a settlement via a company voluntary arrangement.

HMRC can be expected, as ever, to vote against any which demands of them a cut in what they are owed and, if no CVA is agreed, as happened at Leeds, the League is likely to impose a further 15-point penalty.

Lord Mawhinney, who retired as the Football League's chairman last month, presided over this "football creditors" rule during his seven years in charge, but when he left, he wrote to all 72 clubs asking them to consider its morality.

"Talking about the moral strength of the [Football League] brand," he wrote, "are we all comfortable that, in financial and debt terms, we treat football clubs more favourably than we do our local communities and their businesses, other taxpayers (to whom we have a civic responsibility) or St John Ambulance? That is for you to decide."

So far there is no sign of clubs reconsidering. The Premier League's chief executive, Richard Scudamore, has said the rule must be followed in Portsmouth's case and he argues that Pompey's collapse reflects no wider shame on his glittering league. There is, though, no sporting nobility in paying long departed players millions in full, while St John Ambulance must take another hit from this awful mismanagement of football's boom.

Portsmouth save their money for millionaires while paupers go unpaid | David Conn | Sport | The Guardian

On another note, I know the school they are talking about - it looks like it will have to put off the repairs to the building which is leaking now. Well done Storey, well done Pompey, well done FA.

I love the fact that the football players are effectively getting a tax break as HMRC will not recover the tax it is owed on their wages whilst the players get paid in full.

Unbelievable."

Welcome to the forum

covcity4life · Feb 17, 2012

soooooooooooo when is this happening? be a boost to sky blues if it happens before KO tommrow no?

ricohroar · Feb 17, 2012

COURT 26
Before MR JUSTICE NORRIS
Friday, 17 February 2012
At half past 10
INTERIM HEARINGS LIST
1403 of 2012 Portsmouth Football Club (2010) Limited
1403 of 2012 Same

Jack Griffin · Feb 17, 2012

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/pompey_administration_hearing_live_1_3532402

covcity4life · Feb 17, 2012

best replies................ever

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 17, 2012

[Comment From mike j mike j : ]
Big mistake signing the likes of laurence and kitson .Its these high wages that are gonna kill us today . We should have signed younger playerson lower wages

Y'think?

Fluffsta · Feb 17, 2012

Is it possible they could get more than a 10 point deduction or has the 10 points been confirmed already?

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 17, 2012

[Comment From PFC Tom PFC Tom : ]
I think the FL should give us 10 points, not deduct it, because of their failings we've had an unfair advantage

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 17, 2012

Fluffsta said:
Is it possible they could get more than a 10 point deduction or has the 10 points been confirmed already?

It seems pretty certain that they will have at least 10 points taken off if the administration request is granted-if it's not, the club could well face extinction.

oldskyblue58 · Feb 17, 2012

Think FL rules say its 10 points. Previous deduction under PL rules so not taken into account. However if the FL choose to investigate and find significant wrong doings that may increase points deduction. The findings would have to be before 22/03 to be impose additional points deduction this season. 10 points deducted now if goes into admin today

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