Qatar World Cup 2022 (45 Viewers)

Terry Gibson's perm · Dec 12, 2022

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Even look at back 4, only Walker is a starter for their club. Stone, Maguire and Shaw are not currently first choices.

We overrate our team a bit. France and ourselves are very even as a team. In a combined XI, how many players would actually start? Then account for Benzema, Pogba and Kante.

We need to make strides in our striking and defence and goalkeeping departments.

Kante of five years ago would get in but he is at the end now (a sign of that is Barcelona are trying to sign him)

Pogba is a joker he would never get in before Rice and Bellingham.

Benz ema and Kane are close but I would still take Kane.

I go the other on rating players we look at some foreign players and think they are amazing but are no better than what we have.

You are right where we need more strength Pickford and Maguire aren’t good enough and we are obviously a midfield player short if Henderson gets in.

MusicDating · Dec 12, 2022

It's curious that everyone has a complete conviction that the thing Southgate didn't do would have been better than the thing he did do.

That's not defending Southgate, but I can't believe that every England manager since '66 could have won a trophy by not playing x but playing y instead. We've tried enough varieties of manager!

Maybe our players just aren't good enough. Maybe they just don't have the winner's mentality and the bottle to go with it (how many of the 26 man squad have actually won anything?)? I don't know how you get that though.

Maybe more should go and play abroad, get them out of the comfort zone of celebrating finishing 4th in the league to get CL football.

I think on balance I want Southgate to stay as he evidently has the player's support, but maybe bring in a top coach to work alongside him to take over after 2024.

MusicDating · Dec 12, 2022

Unsurprisingly, Jonathan Liew puts it far more eloquently than me! Interesting comparison of Ancelotti / Pep > knockout / process.

England ticked the boxes but did they need to win this World Cup enough? | Jonathan Liew

No easy targets or effigies to burn, though questions remain about expectations and how to measure success and failure

www.theguardian.com

CCFCSteve · Dec 12, 2022

I think Rice summed it well

“For me personally I hope he stays,” Declan Rice said. “I don’t know [if he will] and there’s a lot of talk around that.

“But I think he has been brilliant for us and I think there’s a lot of criticism that’s not deserved. He has taken us so, so far; further than people can expect. Tonight he got everything spot on and it’s not on him. The tactics were right, we played the right way, we were aggressive and we stopped [Kylian] Mbappé, who was quiet. It was two goals against the run of play and that’s not down to the manager, it’s up to us on the pitch.

“I really hope he stays because the group that we’ve got and what he has made for us is so special. I love playing for him and I love playing for England.”

I have no issue with Southgate having one last shot at the Euros. We can pick apart formations, tactics etc, but he did what I and many others hoped he would do, was less defensive and went for it…dropping a couple of his favourites in the process. We just didn’t have the rub of the green, that happens. Getting a group of multi millionaires loving playing for their country again is massive for me and that’s been down to Southgate

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Dec 12, 2022

I feel like Kane missing the penalty is taking the forefront, but if it hadn't have been for that moment of madness by the French defender, what would have happened anyway? We didn't create enough from open play, were sloppy for their two goals, and made some silly tactical decisions later in the game.

I am feeling more frustrated by this as the days go by.

wingy · Dec 12, 2022

It's individual things like with twenty minutes to go and you he have a beast of a free kick specialist on the bench , redundant.

CCFCSteve · Dec 12, 2022

wingy said:
It's individual things like with twenty minutes to go and you he have a beast of a free kick specialist on the bench , redundant.

To be fair a another couple of yards out rashford sticks that one at the end in the top corner

I didn’t agree with putting Sterling on. Should’ve been Grealish or wild card Maddison

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 12, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
To be fair a another couple of yards out rashford sticks that one at the end in the top corner

I didn’t agree with putting Sterling on. Should’ve been Grealish or wild card Maddison

Sterling has delivered for Southgate during his reign, so it's hardly surprising he went for the known quantity he trusts. Robins does that all the time too just about all the managers do. It's not *that* crazy a decision to bring Sterling on really. Not like he's a total incompetent.

As for Rashford, is he now in the shouldn't have been playing category now he's played, moving out of the should have been playing category when he didn't?

CCFCSteve · Dec 12, 2022

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I feel like Kane missing the penalty is taking the forefront, but if it hadn't have been for that moment of madness by the French defender, what would have happened anyway? We didn't create enough from open play, were sloppy for their two goals, and made some silly tactical decisions later in the game.

I am feeling more frustrated by this as the days go by.

Im not one for stats alone but England had 8 shots on target to France’s 5. Off the top of my head as well as missed pen…Maguire hit outside of the post, rashford just over from free kick, Bellingham long range shot metre either side of keeper and it’s in, Saka put one wide from six yards from Shaw cross and Kane brought down on edge of area which was ignored

Frances goal went through Bellingham’s legs, even a slight deflection and it’s saved by Pickford or hits post/goes wide). Even Giroud header hit Maguire as well, who knows where it was going without that. As I’ve said, fine margins and we just didn’t have the rub of the green

CCFCSteve · Dec 12, 2022

Deleted member 5849 said:
Sterling has delivered for Southgate during his reign, so it's hardly surprising he went for the known quantity he trusts. Robins does that all the time too just about all the managers do. It's not *that* crazy a decision to bring Sterling on really. Not like he's a total incompetent.

As for Rashford, is he now in the shouldn't have been playing category now he's played, moving out of the should have been playing category when he didn't?

I like sterling for England but he’s not been in great club form and as I mentioned previously he’s had to do a load of travelling and focus on non football stuff in preceding days

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Dec 12, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
Im not one for stats alone but England had 8 shots on target to France’s 5. Off the top of my head as well as missed pen…Maguire hit outside of the post, rashford just over from free kick, Bellingham long range shot metre either side of keeper and it’s in, Saka put one wide from six yards from Shaw cross and Kane brought down on edge of area which was ignored

Frances goal went through Bellingham’s legs, even a slight deflection and it’s saved by Pickford or hits post/goes wide). Even Giroud header hit Maguire as well, who knows where it was going without that. As I’ve said, fine margins and we just didn’t have the rub of the green

Call it the rub of the green if you want, we still failed to score from open play. France managed it twice.

Nick · Dec 12, 2022

Southgate has no bottle.

Look at Holland when they were chasing the game.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Dec 12, 2022

The ref from our game has been kept on, and Michael Oliver sent home.

Hardly surprising keeping the one on who is on the special payroll. More funny decisions to follow!

shmmeee · Dec 12, 2022

Nick said:
Southgate has no bottle.

Look at Holland when they were chasing the game.

Exactly this. Should have sent Maguire up front and started lumping it long probably even before the penalty miss. Got another striker on who might pick up the loose bits. Anything but keep basically the same shape and style. It’s cup football FFS.

Shouldn’t have been trying to shoot from the late free kicks either. Far too close. Needed a Dutch style FK routine there, or at least play it out for someone else to hit.

chiefdave · Dec 12, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
But I think he has been brilliant for us and I think there’s a lot of criticism that’s not deserved. He has taken us so, so far; further than people can expect.

Not sure I agree with that, England are ranked 4th in the world and haven't got to the final 4

You could make an argument they did in Russia, although the only team they played who was ranked above them was Belgium in the group stage who they lost to

2019 Nations League they were ranked 3rd, came 3rd, 2021 Nations League they were ranked 4th and finished 15th

Which leaves the Euros, ranked 3rd but finished 2nd. Although again we didn't play a team in the entire tournament ranked above us, and we had the advantage of playing all but one game at Wembley when other teams were travelling around in covid bubbles

To be fair he's built a solid foundation but it's time to give someone else ago, it was probably time for that after the Euros tbh. Of course the problem is who, we're hardly blessed with a long list of potential replacements

stupot07 · Dec 12, 2022

CCFCSteve said:
Im not one for stats alone but England had 8 shots on target to France’s 5. Off the top of my head as well as missed pen…Maguire hit outside of the post, rashford just over from free kick, Bellingham long range shot metre either side of keeper and it’s in, Saka put one wide from six yards from Shaw cross and Kane brought down on edge of area which was ignored

Frances goal went through Bellingham’s legs, even a slight deflection and it’s saved by Pickford or hits post/goes wide). Even Giroud header hit Maguire as well, who knows where it was going without that. As I’ve said, fine margins and we just didn’t have the rub of the green

If you look at the quality of chances, giroud had 2 headers and a volley all centre of goal about 10 yards out from open play. The only chance we created that was comparable was Saka's from Fodens cross.

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MusicDating · Dec 12, 2022

stupot07 said:
If you look at the quality of chances, giroud had 2 headers and a volley all centre of goal about 10 yards out from open play. The only chance we created that was comparable was Saka's from Fodens cross.

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Every site I've looked at has our xG much higher than France's. Even taking away Kane's second pen.

xG England 2.36-1.08 France

xG England vs France Football World Cup 2022 | Expected Goals Eng 1-2 Fra Match Stats Quarterfinal | Soccer Blog|Football News, Reviews, Quizzes

Click here for expected goals stats from France vs Argentina FWC Final 2022 Here is a look at the xG (expected goals) stats from England vs France (Football World Cup 2022 Quarterfinal Attendance 68,895 December 10, 2022). England were the better side, especially in the second half, and that is...

www.soccer-blogger.com

2.54 v 1.21

England vs France xG (Expected goals) Stats, World Cup 2022, December 10, 2022 | xGscore

England vs France Advanced xG stats, xPTS, xG on target (xGOT), xG open and set play, xG per time, xG Fairness. World Cup 2022, December 10, 2022.

xgscore.io

2.69 v 1.41

Today's Live Football Scores, Fixtures and Results | Sporting Life

Get today's live football scores, results, fixtures and goal scorers across all major competitions from Sporting Life

www.infogol.net

stupot07 · Dec 12, 2022

MusicDating said:
Every site I've looked at has our xG much higher than France's. Even taking away Kane's second pen.

xG England 2.36-1.08 France

xG England vs France Football World Cup 2022 | Expected Goals Eng 1-2 Fra Match Stats Quarterfinal | Soccer Blog|Football News, Reviews, Quizzes

Click here for expected goals stats from France vs Argentina FWC Final 2022 Here is a look at the xG (expected goals) stats from England vs France (Football World Cup 2022 Quarterfinal Attendance 68,895 December 10, 2022). England were the better side, especially in the second half, and that is...

www.soccer-blogger.com

2.54 v 1.21

England vs France xG (Expected goals) Stats, World Cup 2022, December 10, 2022 | xGscore

England vs France Advanced xG stats, xPTS, xG on target (xGOT), xG open and set play, xG per time, xG Fairness. World Cup 2022, December 10, 2022.

xgscore.io

2.69 v 1.41

Today's Live Football Scores, Fixtures and Results | Sporting Life

Get today's live football scores, results, fixtures and goal scorers across all major competitions from Sporting Life

www.infogol.net

My point was that they created the better chances from open play, which they did. You take away our 2 penalties and look at xG purely for open play and set piece goals then its.

0.96 vs 1.21

And then you look at the shot map, France had 5 chances centre of goal about 10-12 yards out, where as we didn't really have many real bar Sakas that were really must score chances.

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Evo1883 · Dec 12, 2022

I've also never understood the constant comparing Southgate to every England manager before him .

We surely can only compare a manager against the level of opposition at the time and ask wether anybody could have done better .

Southgate getting to a semi or a final over the last 6 years has absolutely no bearing on what happened 20 years ago ...none whatsoever, its a weird comparison.

Spain , Germany, Brazil, Portugal, Italy, Holland are not the same teams that they used to be and England currently have a pretty damn good crop of players ..

I'm positive with the routes we had , there are lots of managers who would have taken England to exactly the same place Gareth did .. he's done nothing special and did the absolute minimum expected with what was infront of him

Brighton Sky Blue · Dec 13, 2022

Evo1883 said:
I've also never understood the constant comparing Southgate to every England manager before him .

We surely can only compare a manager against the level of opposition at the time and ask wether anybody could have done better .

Southgate getting to a semi or a final over the last 6 years has absolutely no bearing on what happened 20 years ago ...none whatsoever, its a weird comparison.

Spain , Germany, Brazil, Portugal, Italy, Holland are not the same teams that they used to be and England currently have a pretty damn good crop of players ..

I'm positive with the routes we had , there are lots of managers who would have taken England to exactly the same place Gareth did .. he's done nothing special and did the absolute minimum expected with what was infront of him

Leaving spaces before commas? Dom Hyam’s back

Evo1883 · Dec 13, 2022

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Leaving spaces before commas? Dom Hyam’s back

MusicDating · Dec 13, 2022

Evo1883 said:
I've also never understood the constant comparing Southgate to every England manager before him .

We surely can only compare a manager against the level of opposition at the time and ask wether anybody could have done better .

Southgate getting to a semi or a final over the last 6 years has absolutely no bearing on what happened 20 years ago ...none whatsoever, its a weird comparison.

Spain , Germany, Brazil, Portugal, Italy, Holland are not the same teams that they used to be and England currently have a pretty damn good crop of players ..

I'm positive with the routes we had , there are lots of managers who would have taken England to exactly the same place Gareth did .. he's done nothing special and did the absolute minimum expected with what was infront of him

I don't think it's a comparison per se, it's more of a question of would a different coach taken us further this time. And if you think yes, does that apply to previous managers when we didn't win a tournament? eg Could someone else than Erikkson done better in the 30 mins against 10-men Brazil in 2002? Every time Capello's England played a decent team we lost and he probably had the best CV of any England manager.

Seems to me it's more a player thing now than a manager thing. Do they have that mentality and desire to succeed or are they happy simply not getting stick back home for losing to the world champs?

Otis · Dec 13, 2022

Evo1883 said:
I've also never understood the constant comparing Southgate to every England manager before him .

We surely can only compare a manager against the level of opposition at the time and ask wether anybody could have done better .

It's so different from club management, so it's also very much about the players an international manager inherits. He can't buy players.

Southgate was blessed with a lot of talent in front of him this time around.

He was lucky that he inherited the likes of Foden and Saka and Bellingham.

I think Reece James would have done really well in the tournament too.

He does have some very good players at his disposal. So it is hard to compare to others, because a lot can come down to the luck of what players you can pick from. And England seemed to be well adrift for years, but over the past few years have invested in youth and brought players through the system.

Otis · Dec 13, 2022

Evo1883 said:
I've also never understood the constant comparing Southgate to every England manager before him .

We surely can only compare a manager against the level of opposition at the time and ask wether anybody could have done better .

Southgate getting to a semi or a final over the last 6 years has absolutely no bearing on what happened 20 years ago ...none whatsoever, its a weird comparison.

Spain , Germany, Brazil, Portugal, Italy, Holland are not the same teams that they used to be and England currently have a pretty damn good crop of players ..

I'm positive with the routes we had , there are lots of managers who would have taken England to exactly the same place Gareth did .. he's done nothing special and did the absolute minimum expected with what was infront of him

And yes, we all would have expected quarter finals, minimum. That's exactly what we got.

We can be pleased in some of the performances, but we only achieved the very minimum in terms of progression.

MusicDating · Dec 13, 2022

Otis said:
It's so different from club management, so it's also very much about the players an international manager inherits. He can't buy players.

Southgate was blessed with a lot of talent in front of him this time around.

He was lucky that he inherited the likes of Foden and Saka and Bellingham.

I think Reece James would have done really well in the tournament too.

He does have some very good players at his disposal. So it is hard to compare to others, because a lot can come down to the luck of what players you can pick from. And England seemed to be well adrift for years, but over the past few years have invested in youth and brought players through the system.

Yup and I'm always guilty of looking ahead and thinking 'in two years time player x and y will be at their peak, we'll win it then!'

It can't always be down to bad luck/refs/lack of subs each time. How do we differ from Germany/Italy for example?

We seem much closer now in ability/fitness/coaching/tactics, so what's left? Is it mentality/bottle?

Otis · Dec 13, 2022

MusicDating said:
Yup and I'm always guilty of looking ahead and thinking 'in two years time player x and y will be at their peak, we'll win it then!'

It can't always be down to bad luck/refs/lack of subs each time. How do we differ from Germany/Italy for example?

We seem much closer now in ability/fitness/coaching/tactics, so what's left? Is it mentality/bottle?

Yup. Exactly that I think. We COULD have won this tournament for sure. I think there is little doubt about it.

Mentality, bottle, belief.

Nick · Dec 13, 2022

Good job he can't buy players. He would be the knob who spends £150m on 10 right backs.

Evo1883 · Dec 13, 2022

The fact Gareth hasn't yet resigned suggests he will stay on

Otis · Dec 13, 2022

Evo1883 said:
The fact Gareth hasn't yet resigned suggests he will stay on

Or maybe he is unable to sign his resignation letter until it's time to take his Pizza Hut paper bag off his head.

SBT · Dec 13, 2022

Evo1883 said:
I've also never understood the constant comparing Southgate to every England manager before him .

We surely can only compare a manager against the level of opposition at the time and ask wether anybody could have done better .

Southgate getting to a semi or a final over the last 6 years has absolutely no bearing on what happened 20 years ago ...none whatsoever, its a weird comparison.

Spain , Germany, Brazil, Portugal, Italy, Holland are not the same teams that they used to be and England currently have a pretty damn good crop of players ..

I'm positive with the routes we had , there are lots of managers who would have taken England to exactly the same place Gareth did .. he's done nothing special and did the absolute minimum expected with what was infront of him

I see a lot of talk on here about how international football is somehow worse today than it was 10/20 years ago, but I’m not sure how people are measuring that? I assume it’s more than just vague notions of ‘It was better in my day’.

All that being said, the thing that Southgate is accused of being unable to do - beat big teams in the knockout stages - is something that has affected every England manager since 1966. And he arguably has a better record there than his predecessors anyway……many of them failed to beat Germany - even at home! - as he did, for example. I’m not convinced that any team with Ashley Young at LWB and Delle Alli at #10 has a divine right to beat Colombia either, but Southgate managed it.

Ultimately we were right to get rid of people like Sven (who couldn’t beat Portugal), Capello (who couldn’t beat Germany) and Hodgson (who couldn’t beat anyone), and I can see the argument for making the same change here, in the interests of freshening things up. The difference here is that a) There’s visible progress under Southgate that was never obvious under his predecessors and b) There are no obvious half-decent replacements waiting in the wings. While things aren’t going flawlessly under Southgate, they’re still going pretty well, and there’s something to be said for not ripping that up when the same core group of players are going to be one of the favourites for the next big tournament in not even 18 months.

Otis · Dec 13, 2022

SBT said:
I see a lot of talk on here about how international football is somehow worse today than it was 10/20 years ago, but I’m not sure how people are measuring that? I assume it’s more than just vague notions of ‘It was better in my day’.

All that being said, the thing that Southgate is accused of being unable to do - beat big teams in the knockout stages - is something that has affected every England manager since 1966. And he arguably has a better record there than his predecessors anyway……many of them failed to beat Germany - even at home! - as he did, for example. I’m not convinced that any team with Ashley Young at LWB and Delle Alli at #10 has a divine right to beat Colombia either, but Southgate managed it.

Ultimately we were right to get rid of people like Sven (who couldn’t beat Portugal), Capello (who couldn’t beat Germany) and Hodgson (who couldn’t beat anyone), and I can see the argument for making the same change here, in the interests of freshening things up. The difference here is that a) There’s visible progress under Southgate that was never obvious under his predecessors and b) There are no obvious half-decent replacements waiting in the wings. While things aren’t going flawlessly under Southgate, they’re still going pretty well, and there’s something to be said for not ripping that up when the same core group of players are going to be one of the favourites for the next big tournament in not even 18 months.

Thing is though, the German team of late, just aren't the same powerhouse team they have been in the past. They are definitely weaker.

SBT · Dec 13, 2022

Otis said:
Thing is though, the German team of late, just aren't the same powerhouse team they have been in the past. They are definitely weaker.

Fair point, but that’s not really what I want to get hung up on. Besides, England pulling away from recent world champions in terms of quality is something I’d like to see continue!

Mucca Mad Boys · Dec 13, 2022

Otis said:
Thing is though, the German team of late, just aren't the same powerhouse team they have been in the past. They are definitely weaker.

It doesn’t help that whenever Southgate has done well, it always comes with an asterisk.

France were favourites going into the tie, clearly the money men and most people believed France would win. They did, big shock. It is commendable that we actually looked the better team and really should’ve took the game to extra time. Usually with England, it’s a case of getting outclassed by an elite team. The consensus that the winner of England v France would be the overall winner, especially after Brazil crashed out and we got edged.

It’s a shame, I think Southgate will probably leave when his contract is up. Considering his record, which is the best we’ve ever had, he gets far too much unwarranted stick.

As Al Murray put it, every England fan knows how to win a World Cup after a few pints.

Evo1883 · Dec 13, 2022

Otis said:
Thing is though, the German team of late, just aren't the same powerhouse team they have been in the past. They are definitely weaker.

A few are , most I mentioned

CCFCSteve · Dec 13, 2022

Mucca Mad Boys said:
It doesn’t help that whenever Southgate has done well, it always comes with an asterisk.

France were favourites going into the tie, clearly the money men and most people believed France would win. They did, big shock. It is commendable that we actually looked the better team and really should’ve took the game to extra time. Usually with England, it’s a case of getting outclassed by an elite team. The consensus that the winner of England v France would be the overall winner, especially after Brazil crashed out and we got edged.

It’s a shame, I think Southgate will probably leave when his contract is up. Considering his record, which is the best we’ve ever had, he gets far too much unwarranted stick.

As Al Murray put it, every England fan knows how to win a World Cup after a few pints.

Not dissimilar to losing against Italy on pens… Italy that had gone something like 35 games unbeaten before the game which was forgotten by many.

Southgate has undoubtedly made mistakes. Most managers do. He set up more attack focussed this World Cup which we all wanted and gave it a go, we get caught, unlucky to go out and people still want rid

The discussion of whether he should stay was raised in a mates what’s app group last night (there’s a few moaners on there and cross section of supporters of different teams in different leagues). All felt Southgate should stay until Euros which surprised me but was probably a reflection of how we looked in the tournament and a question mark over whether anyone currently available* would do better.

If he decides to go, fair enough, not the end of the world but Id also recognise what he’s done for us at international level…and following on from Big Sam and Roy FFS !!!

*are Howe and potter likely to go for it at the moment ? Do we really want someone like Tuchel ?

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