Question for Grendel, Nick, Torch etc... (2 Viewers)

[shy_tall_knight]

Unencumbered freehold - another non starter - would cost millions to cancel those contracts.

 

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[letsallsingtogether]

Oh and we all know the details of the Sisu offer?? some people are never happy CCC own Ricoh they are scoundrels Now they sell it they are even worse make up your minds what you want...

After meeting with Tim Fisher last week it was obvious that sisu did no want to pay for the Ricoh so would never own it GET OVER IT!!!

Utter bullshit the lot of it put it to bed and support the team.

No one knows the details of the Wasps deal and that's the problem. PEter Rossborough called it a big exercise in non-democracy as CRFC and CCFC weren't consulted. Also, Lucas has said the deal only went ahead because of guarantees that the City's sports teams' would be OK. How can she know?

And to answer the OP. If we'd moved permanently to Sixfields then I wouldn't have gone. And I'll turn the question around if that's OK. Why the outrage for CCFC fans - and begging other clubs' fans to sign our petition - but not an ounce of sympathy for Wasps' fans?

Did Lucas not say that a team should never be removed from its community?

 

[fernandopartridge]

SISU had opportunities to buy ACL - when they first bought the club or in the tears that they owned it. If SISU have been overlooked you must ask yourself why and IMO it's their conduct. The unnecessary move to Northampton, the unnecessary court cases, the chant of we are building our own stadium - ACL & CCC - have got other more important things to do than manage a constant niggling tenant such as CCFC. WASPS deal even if not for more money allows CCC & ACL to move on and they have. We are now left with incredibly incompetent owners who have seen reduced crowds relegation in their 7 years but some still think they are the good guys.

The opportunity for the club to buy half of ACL was open ended. That's why the council has had to buy the Higgs Share.

 

[Moff]

Exactly. The future of our club is so uncertain now. Have we been reduced to being tenants for the very long term?

It seems for the indefinite future.

What puzzles me, is that the club had first option on the Higgs share. Now it is totally scandalous they never took up that option, but now when it is being taken away from them why didn't they do something. I mean with their past history it would normally mean a legal challenge than doing what you or I would do and purchase it, but this time nothing.
Does that mean either 1) They clearly dont want it and and intend to build their own ground? 2) They dont have the cash? 3) they just dont want it and are happy to be tenants? 4) They have a finger in the Wasps pie?

(Apologies if any inaccuracies in my summary)

 

[Malaka]

Oh and we all know the details of the Sisu offer?? some people are never happy CCC own Ricoh they are scoundrels Now they sell it they are even worse make up your minds what you want...

After meeting with Tim Fisher last week it was obvious that sisu did no want to pay for the Ricoh so would never own it GET OVER IT!!!

Utter bullshit the lot of it put it to bed and support the team.

My God! Some sense at last!

 

[letsallsingtogether]

The voices in my head.

Put it right for you.

 

[Astute]

Wasn't the SISU offer based on getting YB to agree a ridiculously low figure to clear the loan, (which they wouldn't have agreed)? or am i getting the offer mixed up?

if it was, the offer was a non starter anyway

It is what I see as a possibility. 2m for Higgs, 2m to 6m for the loan and about 2m to CCC. Offer of up to 10m.

Could still be miles off though.

 

[Nick]

It seems for the indefinite future.

What puzzles me, is that the club had first option on the Higgs share. Now it is totally scandalous they never took up that option, but now when it is being taken away from them why didn't they do something. I mean with their past history it would normally mean a legal challenge than doing what you or I would do and purchase it, but this time nothing.
Does that mean either 1) They clearly dont want it and and intend to build their own ground? 2) They dont have the cash? 3) they just dont want it and are happy to be tenants? 4) They have a finger in the Wasps pie?

(Apologies if any inaccuracies in my summary)

Exactly, their quietness seems a bit strange which I think could be:

1. They have something up their sleeve and have a masterplan - not so likely
2. They are conceding defeat - maybe
3. They are going to try and play the victim to get fans - maybe
4. They are involved in the deal somehow - not so sure about that one

 

[fernandopartridge]

Exactly. The future of our club is so uncertain now. Have we been reduced to being tenants for the very long term?

The next 4 years and God knows what afterwards.
If we continue to be tenants beyond 4 years I would imagine the rent creeping up as Wasps will not bring in the money themselves. Where's their expertise in event management etc?

 

[torchomatic]

To be honest, I'm more angry that they're doing what SISU did rather than not selling it to SISU. Lucas was bleating earlier in the year that a team should never be ripped from the community, blah, blah, blah...

As you say, it's there's so they can do what they want with it. I know you're a bit of a fan but they are no better than SISU with their secret meetings and underhand non-democratic ways. SISU have an excuse for being cunts, they are a hedge fun. What is the Councils excuse?

Oh and we all know the details of the Sisu offer?? some people are never happy CCC own Ricoh they are scoundrels Now they sell it they are even worse make up your minds what you want...

After meeting with Tim Fisher last week it was obvious that sisu did no want to pay for the Ricoh so would never own it GET OVER IT!!!

Utter bullshit the lot of it put it to bed and support the team.

 

[Hobo]

Exactly, their quietness seems a bit strange which I think could be:

1. They have something up their sleeve and have a masterplan - not so likely
2. They are conceding defeat - maybe
3. They are going to try and play the victim to get fans - maybe
4. They are involved in the deal somehow - not so sure about that one

Not likely/maybe/maybe/not so sure?
So like the rest of us you haven't a clue :thinking about::thinking about::thinking about::thinking about:

Or SISU haven't got the cash for a counter bid? It does seem an opportunity missed!

 

[lordsummerisle]

Oh and we all know the details of the Sisu offer?? some people are never happy CCC own Ricoh they are scoundrels Now they sell it they are even worse make up your minds what you want...

After meeting with Tim Fisher last week it was obvious that sisu did no want to pay for the Ricoh so would never own it GET OVER IT!!!

Utter bullshit the lot of it put it to bed and support the team.

What's happened to the "good news" that you had a couple of weeks ago?

Was it just some bullshit from, and I hesitate to say this, the "usual suspects"?.

 

[Nick]

Not likely/maybe/maybe/not so sure?
So like the rest of us you haven't a clue :thinking about::thinking about::thinking about::thinking about:

Or SISU haven't got the cash for a counter bid? It does seem an opportunity missed!

I can't remember saying where I am a mind reader and can see exactly what they were planning. Was just posting a few different options.

 

[Astute]

The next 4 years and God knows what afterwards.
If we continue to be tenants beyond 4 years I would imagine the rent creeping up as Wasps will not bring in the money themselves. Where's their expertise in event management etc?

Or what contracts are still in place. Will we end back in Northampton? Is there a part in the contract saying how much the rent will be and what rent increases would be allowed? Is the Wasps offer dependent on income from our club? If so will SISU try to distress Wasps?

I just hope we get good news for once today.

 

[Ian1779]

Chance of answering Astute's question Ian about the deals you say Sisu have brokered and seen through for us?

Edit: Sorry as I forgot about the Suing and the JR :facepalm:

So the 'package' is around £20m - that's not £20m upfront though is it??

That includes taking on the payment of a £13.4m loan but not removing liability for it
A peanuts pay-off to Higgs and CCC. and an approximate value of £1m for a 250 year lease??

In return for 100% ownership and a 250 year lease.

SISU were in the market for 50% of ACL - 100% wasn't even an option available.
Would have taken the loan amount completely off of the council books.
Payment to Higgs (originally 5.5m - seemingly changed down to 2m)
99 year lease
After all that - council would still have owned 50% of ACL.

Where's the value for the taxpayer here??

 

[Hobo]

I can't remember saying where I am a mind reader and can see exactly what they were planning. Was just posting a few different options.

And I am just saying many of us are pondering the same options. Don't be so touchy and defensive

 

[Astute]

So the 'package' is around £20m - that's not £20m upfront though is it??

That includes taking on the payment of a £13.4m loan but not removing liability for it
A peanuts pay-off to Higgs and CCC. and an approximate value of £1m for a 250 year lease??

In return for 100% ownership and a 250 year lease.

SISU were in the market for 50% of ACL - 100% wasn't even an option available.
Would have taken the loan amount completely off of the council books.
Payment to Higgs (originally 5.5m - seemingly changed down to 2m)
99 year lease
After all that - council would still have owned 50% of ACL.

Where's the value for the taxpayer here??

All dependent on getting a massive discount from YB though. If it was such a good offer and would have gone through why didn't the complete the offer?

 

[kevinleftpeg]

SISU wanted the Ricoh & land cheap to build & make money. They failed & during their tenure we have dropped into L1. All that has happend has nothing to do with anyone else but SISU who thought they could steamroller everyone. Epic fail!

Anyway, all is not lost as they have a battle fund of circa £60m to cover us for 5 years whilst building a new stadium.................. haven't they?

 

[Ian1779]

All dependent on getting a massive discount from YB though. If it was such a good offer and would have gone through why didn't the complete the offer?

It's clearly the million dollar question - and we all know it should have been done and dusted - there's no dispute.

But for people (not suggesting you here) to claim that the council have got a good deal for the City is wrong. Financially, morally, and for it's sporting institutions it's anything but.

 

[fernandopartridge]

All dependent on getting a massive discount from YB though. If it was such a good offer and would have gone through why didn't the complete the offer?

Because the council were themselves pursuing buying out the loan through prudential borrowing.

 

[olderskyblue]

I can't remember saying where I am a mind reader and can see exactly what they were planning. Was just posting a few different options.

I am sure i have seen a post from you Nick that stated catorgorically that you ARE a mind reader....

 

[letsallsingtogether]

I know where your coming from I am just tired now of all this SHIT.
It is obvious that no side in the CCFC saga really care about the fans so let them get on with it and if they self destruct so be it.

At least we tried with little effect as they are all too secretive with the way they work Sisu, CCC, Wasps all of them.

So from now will just support the team and fuck the rest.

By the way will not go to watch the Wasps CRFC yes Wasps NO

To be honest, I'm more angry that they're doing what SISU did rather than not selling it to SISU. Lucas was bleating earlier in the year that a team should never be ripped from the community, blah, blah, blah...

As you say, it's there's so they can do what they want with it. I know you're a bit of a fan but they are no better than SISU with their secret meetings and underhand non-democratic ways. SISU have an excuse for being cunts, they are a hedge fun. What is the Councils excuse?

 

[torchomatic]

Right on.

Although I hate rugby with a passion I've a mind to go and see CRFC just to show a bit of support.

I know where your coming from I am just tired now of all this SHIT.
It is obvious that no side in the CCFC saga really care about the fans so let them get on with it and if they self destruct so be it.

At least we tried with little effect as they are all too secretive with the way they work Sisu, CCC, Wasps all of them.

So from now will just support the team and fuck the rest.

By the way will not go to watch the Wasps CRFC yes Wasps NO

 

[rondog1973]

No one knows the details of the Wasps deal and that's the problem. PEter Rossborough called it a big exercise in non-democracy as CRFC and CCFC weren't consulted. Also, Lucas has said the deal only went ahead because of guarantees that the City's sports teams' would be OK. How can she know?

And to answer the OP. If we'd moved permanently to Sixfields then I wouldn't have gone. And I'll turn the question around if that's OK. Why the outrage for CCFC fans - and begging other clubs' fans to sign our petition - but not an ounce of sympathy for Wasps' fans?

Did Lucas not say that a team should never be removed from its community?

Ultimately, the outrage for CCFC fans was because it was/is OUR club. The point i'm making is that in some quarters on this forum, there appears to be more of an outcry on behalf of another team, not to mention playing a different sport, than there is for our own.

Whilst I feel dreadfully sorry for fans of Wasps, as we witnessed with our predicament last year, in the case of football anyway, the wider fan community don't really care, as they have bigger fish to fry than concern themselves with the ailing fortunes of another club.

And regarding Lucas, yes you are right it is an inconsistency. But when faced with what should be your anchor tenant refusing to play ball by pursuing some bluff/fantasy about building their own stadium, what else are they supposed to do? They have taken Sisu's stated intention at face value and moved on. Sisu didn't think they'd have the bottle to sell to someone else and appear to have had their bluff well and truly called.

 

[torchomatic]

OK, so basically, ha ha SISU have been shafted, yes the council are being hypocrites and Wasps have ripped the club from their fans, but hey, as long as SISU suffer who gives a fuck?

Ultimately, the outrage for CCFC fans was because it was/is OUR club. The point i'm making is that in some quarters on this forum, there appears to be more of an outcry on behalf of another team, not to mention playing a different sport, than there is for our own.

Whilst I feel dreadfully sorry for fans of Wasps, as we witnessed with our predicament last year, in the case of football anyway, the wider fan community don't really care, as they have bigger fish to fry than concern themselves with the ailing fortunes of another club.

And regarding Lucas, yes you are right it is an inconsistency. But when faced with what should be your anchor tenant refusing to play ball by pursuing some bluff/fantasy about building their own stadium, what else are they supposed to do? They have taken Sisu's stated intention at face value and moved on. Sisu didn't think they'd have the bottle to sell to someone else and appear to have had their bluff well and truly called.

 

[rondog1973]

OK, so basically, ha ha SISU have been shafted, yes the council are being hypocrites and Wasps have ripped the club from their fans, but hey, as long as SISU suffer who gives a fuck?

Did you hear Fisher yesterday? 2 + a potential 2 has now become a definite 4 years renting. Clearly, they are just trying to find more time to hope to find some other underhand means of obtaining an asset for fuck all. Had CCC not sold it's share, what do you suspect would of happened in the forthcoming 2-4 years?

 

[sky blue john]

OK, so basically, ha ha SISU have been shafted, yes the council are being hypocrites and Wasps have ripped the club from their fans, but hey, as long as SISU suffer who gives a fuck?

Lol !! Brilliant !

Pot kettle Hypocrite !
" I won't go to sixfields "
" I am just going to sixfields to support the boys "

So what would you say to Wasps fans would you say boycott or support the boys ?

 

[torchomatic]

Id' say do what you want and don't let poisonous trolls on the internet make you feel guilty.

Lol !! Brilliant !

Pot kettle Hypocrite !
" I won't go to sixfields "
" I am just going to sixfields to support the boys "

So what would you say to Wasps fans would you say boycott or support the boys ?

 

[Godiva]

Yes Godiva, New owners and new ideas, what have we had since 2007? Lots of new ideas and chiefs and every step has been a backwards one, but I'm sure you still think that Sisu would have made a good job of owning the Ricoh ointlaugh:

I still believe that the club would be in a better position owning ACL. Without owning all income streams, without the ability to develop new income streams, without benefitting from stadium sponsorship ... etc etc this club has limited chances of getting back to where I think we should be: The Premier League.

 

[Godiva]

Simple

Wasps £20M Sisu (£10M) TF

The sisu offer was for half the company so the deal was the same.

Simple.

Not quite. The value of the deal seems the same, but the deals are completely different.
Tbf - I would much prefer the Wasp deal for the club over the original sisu offer.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Getting my tin hat ready but to me this, this is worse than moving to Northampton. That was always going to be a temporary move but to see a stadium that was built for us now owned by a Rugby team and the likelihood of our crest being replaced by that Wasps crest and the Sky Blue seats being replaced by Yellow and Black Seats, is f*&king awful. There's a chance from next year that the stadium could be called 'The Land Rover Stadium'. I know the Ricoh sponsorship is ending but none of this is right.

We're going to lose our identity (even more) right in front of our eyes. What's more, there's absolutely no sign of a new stadium and 99.9% chance of never owning the Ricoh (in my lifetime anyway). I posted a thread a day or two after the Gillingham game, highlighting the difference between the euphoria of that night and the game against Cardiff a few weeks prior. I felt cr*p after that Cardiff game.

Might just be me but this morning, I think I've hit rock bottom as a CCFC fan. I cannot see any logical progression for our beloved CCFC...

WM

 

[Godiva]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Wasps have paid around £5 million to secure 100% ownership of a 250 year leasehold. They are not clearing the loan, they are just taking it on.

SISU bid for the Higgs stake (i.e 50%) on a much shorter lease and their offer would have seen the then mortgage cleared and ACL would have been debt free.

Wasps have got the Ricoh for peanuts. If SISU had got this deal some people would have been outraged. Oh, and Higgs (the charity) have lost several million pounds.

Great for the taxpayer though eh?

Oh yes. The offer that they didn't follow through.

The deal collapsed when the condition for the deal was broken - when CCC took over the mortgage from YB.

 

[torchomatic]

Jobs, blah blah blah, regeneration, blah glah blah, world class stadium, blah blah blah, working together, blah blah blah, best for the people of Coventry, blah blah blah, enormous benefits, blah blah blah...

Getting my tin hat ready but to me this, this is worse than moving to Northampton. That was always going to be a temporary move but to see a stadium that was built for us now owned by a Rugby team and the likelihood of our crest being replaced by that Wasps crest and the Sky Blue seats being replaced by Yellow and Black Seats, is f*&king awful. There's a chance from next year that the stadium could be called 'The Land Rover Stadium'. I know the Ricoh sponsorship is ending but none of this is right.

We're going to lose our identity (even more) right in front of our eyes. What's more, there's absolutely no sign of a new stadium and 99.9% chance of never owning the Ricoh (in my lifetime anyway). I posted a thread a day or two after the Gillingham game, highlighting the difference between the euphoria of that night and the game against Cardiff a few weeks prior. I felt cr*p after that Cardiff game.

Might just be me but this morning, I think I've hit rock bottom as a CCFC fan. I cannot see any logical progression for our beloved CCFC...

WM

 

[Godiva]

Wasn't the SISU offer based on getting YB to agree a ridiculously low figure to clear the loan, (which they wouldn't have agreed)? or am i getting the offer mixed up?

It was. They believed they could have bought the mortgage at approximately £2m-£5m.

Was that ridiculous? I am not so sure.
Both ACL and sisu made a lot of public noise on how close the club was to fold. Add to that ACL clearly wasn't in good financial health too - mostly surviving on one-off deals and events.
Losing the £1.3m income from the club (and the add-on revenues from match days and sponsorships) would push ACL into trouble and the mortgage would become distressed.
I think it is very likely the bank would listen to any offer from sisu.

This is from the JR transcripts (sisu QC asking PWKH):
Q. Let's see if we can agree on the
second point, that ACL couldn't afford the Yorkshire Bank loan unless the football club kept paying the rent; would you agree with that?
A. Certainly the sudden cessation of payment from the football club was inevitably going to lead to cash flow
difficulties for ACL.

Many think sisu's suggestion of buying the mortgage at a low price is ridiculous, but I am more inclined to think the CCC deal of taking it on at £14m was ridiculous.

 

[Godiva]

It is what I see as a possibility. 2m for Higgs, 2m to 6m for the loan and about 2m to CCC. Offer of up to 10m.

Could still be miles off though.

Again: £5m to Higgs, £2m-£5m for the loan. No offer for CCC's shares.
So, up to £10m for 50% of ACL.