Second referendum : am I missing something ? (50 Viewers)

rob9872 · Sep 18, 2018

djr8369 said:
If everyone took out more than they put in how would that work?? We put in more because we’re one of the richest nations. That money is used to develop the poorer nations so they can prosper, improve their economies which in turn benefits everyone as they are able to trade more goods. It also stops immigration into the richer countries as the situation in those countries improves...

Those rules aren’t imposed on us without our control. Rules and regulations are written and voted on by all and we’ve been one of the most influential countries in that. Look at all the various BS EN standards for an example. Those rules are then imposed so every competes fairly.

We already had the best deal of any nation.

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Break that post into chunks and tell me how each of those issues are improved by staying in.

Our country has many problems that we need to address and people living in poverty, before aiding the development of others. These are not third world countries, they are established European countries.

Rules are voted for - we have one vote and that means we don't have full control as would if out.

By being out we can decide as a richer country to control those immigration levels whether their country improves or not.

Best deal - good. But not as good as being out. They gave us the best deal because we are not land-locked with them and know that makes us more ppowerful to make autonomous decisions, as we now have done.

djr8369 · Sep 18, 2018

rob9872 said:
You can moan, nobody has said differently, but it's happening, give it a chance and it might work. There was nothing in this vote saying it was forever. If in 10 years time people think differently and want to re-enter, I'm sure we'll be welcomed back, but let's see how this one goes before trying to derail it.

I’ll give it a chance when I hear an argument selling the benefits that doesn’t fall apart with the slightest scrutiny or thought. Right now I’m more worried about an economic downturn as I want to keep the job I’m in and even most Brexiters are saying it will be pain in the short term before any potential growth.

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rob9872 · Sep 18, 2018

I said 10 years as it will always take time. Governments are almost always stronger in the second term, it usually takes them the first term to do a full 180 turn from the previous regime, so I would think a 10 year cycle to have another look would be right. In fact I'd be quite happy for it to be listed as a 10 year review from day 1, providing people didn't try to make it unworkable simply for political gain which we know some would.

djr8369 · Sep 18, 2018

rob9872 said:
Break that post into chunks and tell me how each of those issues are improved by staying in.

Our country has many problems that we need to address and people living in poverty, before aiding the development of others. These are not third world countries, they are established European countries.

Rules are voted for - we have one vote and that means we don't have full control as would if out.

By being out we can decide as a richer country to control those immigration levels whether their country improves or not.

Best deal - good. But not as good as being out. They gave us the best deal because we are not land-locked with them and know that makes us more ppowerful to make autonomous decisions, as we now have done.

As far as I see it being out won’t improve any of those issues. The percentage of GDP we send is tiny even though it sounds like a lot of money. As for rules, we won’t have any control but we’ll largely have to still follow them so we can continue to trade. There’s also the possibility immigration rules won’t change for the same reason although this is up for debate.

Anyway, at least we could keep it cordial as this conversation so often results to petty insults.

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Deleted member 5849 · Sep 18, 2018

rob9872 said:
In fact I'd be quite happy for it to be listed as a 10 year review from day 1

What we need is a referendum on that...

clint van damme · Sep 18, 2018

rob9872 said:
Break that post into chunks and tell me how each of those issues are improved by staying in.

Our country has many problems that we need to address and people living in poverty, before aiding the development of others. These are not third world countries, they are established European countries.

Rules are voted for - we have one vote and that means we don't have full control as would if out.

By being out we can decide as a richer country to control those immigration levels whether their country improves or not.

Best deal - good. But not as good as being out. They gave us the best deal because we are not land-locked with them and know that makes us more ppowerful to make autonomous decisions, as we now have done.

have you got a link to any sort of article that explains how we will be better off post Brexit because I'm struggling to find anything that specifies that scenario?

Grendel · Sep 18, 2018

clint van damme said:
have you got a link to any sort of article that explains how we will be better off post Brexit because I'm struggling to find anything that specifies that scenario?

No article exists either way I would have thought

Sick Boy · Sep 18, 2018

rob9872 said:
If the option was remain (even close) does anyone think Brexiteers would still be vocal and would still be pushing for another vote or more accepting of a democratic decision?

If it had been other way round, there's no doubt they'd still be calls for another vote from Leavers. Farage said it himself the night of the referendum.

Your reference to the 'protests' made me laugh, I know Tory voters who have been on the marches.

Sick Boy · Sep 18, 2018

clint van damme said:
have you got a link to any sort of article that explains how we will be better off post Brexit because I'm struggling to find anything that specifies that scenario?

I think @Monners asked the question multiple times and no one was able to answer it.

Grendel · Sep 18, 2018

Sick Boy said:
If it had been other way round, there's no doubt they'd still be calls for another vote from Leavers. Farage said it himself the night of the referendum.

Your reference to the 'protests' made me laugh, I know Tory voters who have been on the marches.

People would have lost interest far quicker and accepted the status quo

Sick Boy · Sep 18, 2018

Deleted member 5849 said:
You can never have too many Brexit threads!

There'll be one on how we live without chorizo and chiabatta next, and whether it's a return to the good old fashioned British values of the sausage sandwich with brown sauce.

Not the EU-made HP Sauce though

Sick Boy · Sep 18, 2018

Grendel said:
People would have lost interest far quicker and accepted the status quo

Massively disagree.

rob9872 · Sep 18, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Massively disagree.

When was the last Conservative march or rally about anything ever?

Sick Boy · Sep 18, 2018

rob9872 said:
When was the last Conservative march or rally about anything ever?

Not sure what that has to do with this topic? Not all leave voters were Tory.

clint van damme · Sep 18, 2018

Grendel said:
No article exists either way I would have thought

There's plenty of stuff out there telling us why it will fail.
I'm happy to read something that can contradict that if someone can link something.
I've been talking to hauliers I deal with, been listening to the likes of James O'Brien and 3 men in the pub on Youtube who paint a bleak picture. But obviously they are committed remainers, I am happy to listened to an informed contrary view.
One thing that has become clear to me, rather worryingly, is that Liam Fox and Rees Mogg have absolutely no clue about how the WTO works.

Grendel · Sep 18, 2018

clint van damme said:
There's plenty of stuff out there telling us why it will fail.
I'm happy to read something that can contradict that if someone can link something.
I've been talking to hauliers I deal with, been listening to the likes of James O'Brien and 3 men in the pub on Youtube who paint a bleak picture. But obviously they are committed remainers, I am happy to listened to an informed contrary view.
One thing that has become clear to me, rather worryingly, is that Liam Fox and Rees Mogg have absolutely no clue about how the WTO works.

How can people say why it will fail when they do not know what “it” is?

rob9872 · Sep 18, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Not sure what that has to do with this topic? Not all leave voters were Tory.

Absolutely agree and yet it seems that all leave voters are tarred with a hard right brush and are mocked for being Tory regardless of their political sway.

Apart from a minority far right EDL supporters, I'd guess that the a

nti Brexit, animal rights, ban the bomb, support the students, Union marches, LBGTQ rights, feminism - different signs but the same people marching every time, who just like to cause trouble and be outraged at the establishment - most likely would like to be

led by Owen Jones as their leader!

clint van damme · Sep 18, 2018

Grendel said:
How can people say why it will fail when they do not know what “it” is?

think they're talking specifically about no deal.

Grendel · Sep 18, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Massively disagree.

For a start there would have been no general election so the tories would have had a working majority still and the vast majority of parliament are pro Europe

There is no way it would still be news at all

Grendel · Sep 18, 2018

clint van damme said:
think they're talking specifically about no deal.

Again no one knows what that is and an inevitable compromise would come out

The scare story nonsense reminds me of the millennium bug

Sick Boy · Sep 18, 2018

rob9872 said:
Absolutely agree and yet it seems that all leave voters are tarred with a hard right brush and are mocked for being Tory regardless of their political sway.

Apart from a minority far right EDL supporters, I'd guess that the a
nti Brexit, animal rights, ban the bomb, support the students, Union marches, LBGTQ rights, feminism - different signs but the same people marching every time, who just like to cause trouble and be outraged at the establishment - most likely would like to be

led by Owen Jones as their leader!

As I mentioned earlier, I know Tory voters frkm rural Oxfordshire who went along on a march

Philosoraptor · Sep 18, 2018

This is the way I see it.

The UK signed up to the European Union in the 90's. We are not talking the Common Market here but the alignment of sociopolitical and economic goals without the say of the British public.

This experiment would not of got off the ground if there was a vote on it beforehand by the British public.

Thirty years have passed, society has changed, with successive Governments always coming up with reasons why they should delay giving the people a vote on the issue.

The people, at their first chance, have said no to the European Union. This has not only happened in the UK but in other European countries as well.

The question asked in the referendum was very clear.

It is now time to implement the will of the people in delivering what they want. Be it good or bad.

This experiment of UK PLC, or however Britain is going to be setup is going to need time. However, at least it has the backing of the UK people, unlike the European Union.

There is precedent here to give this new experiment twenty to thirty years to find out if UK PLC is going to be a success or not. Like what previous successive Governments have done about the European Union.

If after that time the public call for another referendum on joining the European Union, if the EU exists, and they are happy with this. That's fine. Good luck whatever the result goes.

clint van damme · Sep 18, 2018

Grendel said:
Again no one knows what that is and an inevitable compromise would come out

The scare story nonsense reminds me of the millennium bug

They know what institutions we would drop out of and what agreements will be null and void in the event of no deal.
They can then put together a fairly well reasoned argument of what will happen next.

Sick Boy · Sep 18, 2018

Grendel said:
For a start there would have been no general election so the tories would have had a working majority still and the vast majority of parliament are pro Europe

There is no way it would still be news at all

Come on, we both there has been an anti-EU narrative amongst certain sections of the media for a while.

martcov · Sep 18, 2018

rob9872 said:
The last time I checked Farage had not been elected as an MP and had no say or bearing on it. He could spout as much hot air as he wanted but only to try and appear relevant. Whether you believe it or not, the vast majority of the leave vote are not hard right racists, Farage supporters, Trump endorsers or were swayed by the £350m NHS bus and would vote exactly the same way if a 2nd referendum was imposed on us. I, like many others, did it because I think it's the most beneficial thing for the long term future of our country. I may be wrong, but like 17m others I'm entitled to believe that and the protesting remainers should respect my right to believe in it.

Yes. Quite. I think Brexit will not be beneficial and am entitled to believe that. At this moment in time, I have seen nothing to suggest Brexit will be beneficial. More like the economy will suffer and many people will be disappointed. Happy to be proved wrong. I will continue to call leavers out on the negative aspects of their decision.

martcov · Sep 18, 2018

Captain Dart said:
You missed out the relatively undemocratic and monolithic governance of the EU. Is also led to the UK being perpetually in a bloc that is far more often than not in the minority when it comes to strategic decision making in the EU, usually out voted by France & Germany.
Is the UK a winner or loser in the EU Council?

The article says that in most cases we were with the majority and that the EU seeks to obtain consensus. It also says Germany is outvoted more than the UK. Nothing shows that it is undemocratic, especially as the article is about voting- the very point of democracy.

martcov · Sep 18, 2018

rob9872 said:
I do respect their right not to believe in it, but not to disrespect the democratic decision and try to overturn the result.

No one is trying to overturn it. They are asking to vote on the deal, which up until now, no one has seen or voted upon.

Grendel · Sep 18, 2018

martcov said:
No one is trying to overturn it. They are asking to vote on the deal, which up until now, no one has seen or voted upon.

And if the public reject the deal wevleave with no deal I assume?

Grendel · Sep 18, 2018

Sick Boy said:
Come on, we both there has been an anti-EU narrative amongst certain sections of the media for a while.

Only in a small proportion of media - some elements of the press

SkyblueBazza · Sep 18, 2018

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
I simply can't be arsed .

No I shouldn't...G is being mischievous there. You'd drown in the resulting froth.

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SkyblueBazza · Sep 18, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Technically it would be a third one, the second one the EU was in 2016. Strangely I didn’t see it as an insult to democracy as democracy is the mechanism that allows us to change our mind. Not allowing people to change their minds when there’s a will to do so is an insult to democracy. Stop being such a snowflake.

Yes - thhst is right Tony. We have changed our mind. We had a referendum & the nation decided to leave the EU

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skybluetony176 · Sep 18, 2018

Grendel said:
People would have lost interest far quicker and accepted the status quo

Doubtful.

skybluetony176 · Sep 18, 2018

Grendel said:
How can people say why it will fail when they do not know what “it” is?

That can’t be true. Anytime you say people didn’t know what they voted for they go ape shit.

skybluetony176 · Sep 18, 2018

SkyblueBazza said:
Yes - thhst is right Tony. We have changed our mind. We had a referendum & the nation decided to leave the EU

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Which is fair enough. Some people clearly don’t won’t us to have the option to change our mind again and then spout insult to democracy if it’s suggested that we have the right to change our minds again. To suggest it’s an insult to democracy is a contradiction in terms and if they really believe that they’d dismiss the 2016 referendum result because we’re not allowed to change our minds.

SkyblueBazza · Sep 18, 2018

clint van damme said:
There's plenty of stuff out there telling us why it will fail.
I'm happy to read something that can contradict that if someone can link something.
I've been talking to hauliers I deal with, been listening to the likes of James O'Brien and 3 men in the pub on Youtube who paint a bleak picture. But obviously they are committed remainers, I am happy to listened to an informed contrary view.
One thing that has become clear to me, rather worryingly, is that Liam Fox and Rees Mogg have absolutely no clue about how the WTO works.

Articles based on opinion or statistics do not necessarily reflect what WILL happen. Some will strive to produce data showing what they said, actually is happening post Brexit. But others will show the opposite.
Wasn't too long ago on the other thread some were posting links to falling consumer confidence & retail failures being the result of Brexit (before Brexit has happened even...due to lacking confidence/uncertainty). This week several articles show that consumer confidence is rising.

All these things are multi-factorial. Brexit will mean lots of tweaks here & there both sides of the channel. It will all even out given time...people WILL make things work

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Second referendum : am I missing something ? (50 Viewers)

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